Kung fu and Tai chi

[JerryLove]

yup its worthless self defense art until you understand hte concept, and whe nyou do you'll be a bad mofo, but Taichi is kung fu, or rather tai chi is wushu, people seperate tai chi and kung fu because tai chi is mostly just practicing the 8 energies, and kung fu is more about applying them.

King-fu: a skill developed with effort over time

 

Wushu: War art (any combative skill)

 

Taijiquan: Grand nexus boxing - a combative art developed with effort over time.

 

Taiji is both a Wushu and a Kung-fu.

 

In common vernacular hoewever, "Wushu" is a particular, state-sanctioned art; and Taiji would not qualify as "Official Wushu". In common vernacular "kung-fu" means "Chinese martial art" and Taiji does qualify.

 

And for the record, Taiji most certainly does attack... would be really hard to spar without attacking. Want a really basic example? Fa a punch from (say) single-whip.

[Drunken Monkey]

well, there is that government sanctioned tai chi set used for competition that's a mash of the different styles...

 

hmm, would you call that one part of the 'wushu'?

[John G]

The origins of tai chi go back many hundreds of years. The person who is traditionally credited as being the 'founder' of tai chi is the monk Chang San-feng, who was stationed at the Wu Tang monastery, and, depending upon sources, lived somewhere between 960AD and 1460 AD, although some scholars question his existence at all, ascribing him to a mythical figure.

 

The theory is that Chang San-feng originated a style that combined both existing combat techniques and other movements, primarily designed to increase the flow of chi energy through the body, thus creating a form that was a physical manifestation of Taoist thinking.

 

Going back even further, the ancestors of tai chi can be seen in the sixth century: Bodhidharma visited the Shao-lin monastery, and developed a system of excersise for the monks, who he saw in poor physical condition from too much meditation. This was known as the Eighteen Form Lohan Excersise. Later, in the eighth century, this was developed into a 37-form 'Long Kung-Fu', which unlike other schools of Kung-fu, was based upon a 'soft' or internal approach, rather than a 'hard' external one.

 

Looking back even further than this, we can see that in the third century, the physician Hua-tu'o created a system of excersise to aid digestion and circulation, based upon the movements of animals and birds. The effect of this system was to move every part of the body.

 

Tai Chi Chuan, the original combat form of Tai Chi, translated means Supreme Ultimate Fist, 'chuan' meaning a method of boxing or combat. Unlike many other martial arts, which were 'aggressive' or outward, Tai Chi Chuan's main principle was that of a 'soft' combat - absorbing the opponent's aggressive energy and using it against him. This is a principle of yin and yang, a balance of opposites where soft is used to overcome hard: the maxim "four ounces to deflect a thousand pounds" or "overcome a weight of a thousand carries by four ounces" is often used. Imagine an opponent twice your weight throwing a powerful punch - the Tai Chi Chuan adept would step back, absorb the punch by grasping the fist and pulling it past him, using his opponent's own forward energy and motion to overbalance the attacker. Or he might respond in any number of ways, always using the same principles.

 

Although 'soft', this was a very violent form, designed for killing and maiming (lest we forget), in an efficient and scientific way. Modern non-violent tai chi as a form on its own, rather than being a part of chuan, was developed much later, as the need for combat gradually decreased - although the tai chi practitioner is always aware that the forms that he is using are the same as those of combat, but slower. In the eighteenth century, Yang Lu-chan removed the label of 'secrecy' on the form, and started his own 'Yang' style of tai chi, becoming known at the imperial court as 'Yang the Unsurpassable'. After his death, one of his students, Chen Hsui-feng, became head of the Yang School. One of Yang Lu-chan's sons, Yang Pan-hou, had a student called Wu Quan-yu, whose son; Wu Chien-chuan became disillusioned with the Yang style and created his own 'Wu' style.

 

Another of Yang Lu-chan's sons, Yang Chien-hou, had three sons, one of which, Yang Chen-fu, is largely responsible for popularising the Yang style and bringing it to the West in this century. He became known as 'Yang the Invincible'

 

source: http://www.soton.ac.uk/~maa1/chi/taichi/origins.htm

 

Comments?

[italian_guy]

Thanks for the very in-deep explanation.

[JerryLove]

Please God, save me from the Bodidharma crap coming up *again*!

 

By some accounts, disciplines similar to Taichi were practiced in China over 2000 years ago, before gradually evolving into fixed postures and movements that became the forms of Taichi. There are several accounts of the origin of Taichi, but none of them can be proven true or false since many authoritative sources have been lost.

 

The most widely held view, however, appears to be that the techniques of Mr. Chen Wan Ting were eventually "softened" by Jiang Fa, who taught Chen Zhang Xing (1771-1853) of Chen Jia Gou village, during the Ching Dynasty.

Tai Chi Chuan's main principle was that of a 'soft' combat - absorbing the opponent's aggressive energy and using it against him. This is a principle of yin and yang, a balance of opposites where soft is used to overcome hard:

The problem here is that such an appeoach would be entirely yin.

although the tai chi practitioner is always aware that the forms that he is using are the same as those of combat, but slower.

Another false claim (I'm trying to just hit the big ones). Taiji forms are always practiced slow (well, except for some Chen forms); it's not practiced faster as a fighting art.

[Drunken Monkey]

i was always under the impression that the foundations of what we see as tai chi was the original 'long fist' from the tang dynasty...

 

(can't remember the dates).

 

and i was also told that it developed, in it's present form, roughly about the same time as wing chun did so that would put it around the dates jerry gave.

 

knowing how the chinese culture likes their myths and mystery i'd say that good old 'three winds of madness cheung' was nothing more than myth.

 

chinese martial arts, especially those developed around the same time all seem to give an account of how someone saw a fight between two creatures, then some link to the shaolin temple as well as the five survivors.

 

more than just coincidence i think.

 

martial arts were supposed to have all come from shaolin (chinese thing... you may or may not agree) and these new arts:

 

wing chun, tai chi, mantis, hung kuen,

 

had no history so the originators made the stories up for some history (or another reason in the case of hung kuen and wing chun).

[JerryLove]

Well, it's note-worthy that we can trace all the modern styles back to Chen style; and we can approximate a date on Chen. If there are precursor styles which are still "Taichi", then they appear to have disappeared.

 

The short version is that the concept that all Chinese martial arts originate with one figure is pre-facia preposterous; so I tend to discount all Boddidharma stories right up front.

 

While I know that the pre-Chen history (if there is any) is unknown; I can speak directly to how Taichi fights... and while someone may be able to come on with more knowledge and *add* to what I can state; I can still categorigcally affirm that Taichi is quite capable, willing, and designed to attack... The thought that it is somehow a defense-only art is a myth.

[Breakdancer]

who ever said tai chi has a strike or attack or wrong, if you do tai chi and the teacher makes you spar than well you should quit that school, Tai chi, even the offensive styles make you do forms over and over and over, and the movements are all circular, the reason that is is because to have a wide range of movement to redirect someones elses energy, AND TAI CHI IS KUNG FU AND TAI CHI IS WUSHU AND KUNG FU IS WUSHU AND KUNG FU IS APPLYING THE 8 ENERGIES IN OFFENSIVE FORM AND TAI CHI IS PRACTICING 8 ENERGIES AND ALL CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS IS WUSHU THEREFOR TAI CHI + KUNG FU= WUSHU WUSHU= KUNG FU TAICHI=KUNG and your stupid for saying wushu is a particular state sanctioned art, Wushu means martial arts, modern wushu is a particular state sanctioned art. Kung fu means hard work, gong fu means hard work and gung ho means work crazy..... WHAT NOW BOY?!

[Martial_Artist]

I'm going to say this now, before it erupts and destorys the integrity of this thread. Breakdancer your post is completely out of line. You can much certainly express your opinion without resorting to anger, or expressing veiled threats. (WHAT NOW BOY?!)

 

I suggest, if you want to keep this thread alive, is to cease your attack and make constructive posts, either pro or con, but civilized nonetheless.

 

This is the first and only warning. Heed it.

[JerryLove]

Actually, I'm guessing his post is simply flame-bait.