When & Why To Fight or Surrender?

[Sasori_Te]

Rich

 

I totally agree with your view. If someone points a gun at you, you have to believe that they will use it. So, what have you got to lose by at least trying to fight back. The police will tell you to comply with an assailants demands. However, they will also tell you if you ask that complying may still get you shot. There are no guarantees. I'd rather get shot trying than get shot standing there counting on the good conduct of a guy pointing a gun at me.

[CTpizzaboy]

This scenario is very unlikely. First off, criminals are opportunist. They wouldn't just stand around a corner and rob anyone that comes around. Second, is this in a bad neighborhood? If so, be more alert or don't get yourself in this situation in the first place. I can go on and on, but I dont have time.

[Rich67]

You're right, pizzaboy. Another thing, I think a lot has to do with how you carry yourself and the "air" of confidence you project. Most criminals look for weaker people to pick on (elderly, women, thin and weak looking people, etc). Most martial artists exude confidence when they walk, and criminals tend to "size up" their victims before moving in on them. Don't walk with your head hung low, don't be afraid to look into people's eyes, and stand up straight.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Just a quick "resume" of my background so you can get an idea of the extent of my knowledge on thsi subject.

 

I have ALWAYS practiced my chosen system with an attitude towards self-defense, not sport. I feel it is a very realistic system and doesn't waste time with * techniques. I have been involved in this art for 29+ years now, and I'm 6'6" tall and weigh about 240lbs. So, I'm not a little guy with a little bit of training, and I have some pretty good experience in real self-defense situations.

 

With that said, and reading the context of the author's thread in the given situation, I would respond by giving the BG my wallet, laying on the ground when told to do so, and watch him drive away with my co-worker (that's a key part of my answer to this). I would then report any information I had to the police as soon as possible and hope for the best.

 

Am I a coward for not trying to stop the BG from taking my co-worker? No, I think "smart" would be a better term.

 

I work a lot in my class with defenses against weapons, specifically knife and gun encounters. If the BG is farther than easy arms reach from you with a gun, odds are that you will get shot before you can effectively defend against it. However, if he's within close proximity..enough so that you can reach the firearm without having to move your entire body forward..then POSSIBLY you might be able to do something about it. However, in the given situation, the BG is asking for your wallet..give it to him! He then tells you to lie face down in the street..OK, I'll do that rather than risk my co-workers or my life. But after I'm face down in the street, he decides to take my co-worker..you just aren't in a position to do a dang thing about it I'm afraid, and trying to stand up and defend her is just plain...a bad idea! You could get yourself shot and killed! Sure, I will, and have, used my martial arts experience to protect loved ones, and more total strangers, but in the given scenerio, my life, and what the loss of my life would mean to my loved ones, is more important than the potential rape or murder of a co-worker....whether or not I liked her.

 

If you change that scenerio to my wife, fiancee, daughter or another loved one..then yes, I would react differently.

 

Just a quick comment also to the post about putting your finger behind the trigger to prevent firing the pistol...HA HA HA! Take a pistol like that (unloaded of course) and try that a few hundred times. You can't do it unless the guy holding the gun is cooperating quite a bit and letting you get away with it. That goes also for many instructors that say "kick the gun out of his hands"..like in the movies. The BG would have to be nearly totally inept for that to work, and your accuracy would have to be PERFECT! I have an old .22 cal revolver that I use frequently in class. The "BG" is ready for us to move when we work on the techniques, and everybody in class is an observer to tell if where the gun is pointing when the hammer falls. If done properly, and the situation is right..it is possible to keep from getting shot...possible even where the gun won't discharge. Distance from you to the gun is CRITICAL, as is positioning of your hands before you attempt the techniques. The type of gun is also a factor..does it have a hammer that needs to fall for instance?

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.

[Tal]

Good post, Shorinryu Sensei.

 

Distance from the gunman is indeed critical. if you are in arms length of the attacker, you have a chance, but the chances of an attacker letting you get to arms length before pulling the gun are very small.

[Sasori_Te]

Shorin Ryu Sensei. Thank you for giving me something else to think about. I didn't read into the post and it never occurred to me that I might already be on the ground when he demanded the co-worker go with him. I also agree that the distance to the firearm is extremely important in determining whether or not to try a disarm or controlling technique. However, I still have to believe that anyone pointing a gun at me has the intention to use it. But, as you pointed out, every situation would be different and a split second decision is all that you are going to have. This post is good for conjecture, but until a person is standing on the street with a gun pointing at them it's a bit of a moot point. we can all posture and say what we will or won't do, but the truth is we won't know until it happens. The military proved this point to me more than once.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

However, I still have to believe that anyone pointing a gun at me has the intention to use it. But, as you pointed out, every situation would be different and a split second decision is all that you are going to have.

 

I wish I had actual statistics to back this up, but I don't think the majority of crimes involving guns are by people that plan on anymore than the intimidation factor of displaying that gun. If your average "mugger" comes up to you empty handed and asks for our wallet..he usually won't get it, so he uses a gun to intimidate you. Sure would work well with me! lol

 

I agree that yes, you, as the victim, have to assume the assailant will use the weapon, and that is what the BG is hoping for.

[kchenault]

Okay, the wife and I were watching an episode of Oprah, yeah, yeah, Oprah, the other night. It was on how people respond to pain in a crisis. They had this lawyer on who got shot 7, that's right 7 times, point blank with a .38. He never went down and said he didn't feel a thing until it was all over. He stayed alive trying to hide behind a tree that obviously wasn't wide enought to protect him. This story was in the national news this past year. The video is quite extreme. It was all caught on tape.

 

The "expert" doctor on the show has a book about just this sort of thing. Pain is a response from your body telling you something is wrong and you better get help or at least, stop what you are doing. In these extreme cases, the mind has already perceived the danger and therefore shuts down the pain response so the body can perform whatever actions it needs to in order to survive.

 

The lawyer said he could feel the impact of the bullets but the pain didn't hit for about an hour afterward.

 

Knowing this, I would have to say I would fight the scumbag tooth and nail to protect whoever was with me. Self-preservation dictates this for me and so do my beliefs as a Christian.

[Thuggish]

nooooo no no no. most people who point a gun at you arent going to use it unless you give them reason. many wouldnt even use it if you refused to give them your wallet (not that id take the chance.) but why why why would you think to yourself- gee, he has a gun, hes gonna use it i better fight him? believe me- hes a lot more likely to use it if you come at him rather than give him your wallet. thinking that hes gonna shoot you so you have to do something will be a self fullfilling prophecy- cause youll get your @#$ shot. compliance is the best course of action.

 

as far as the female is concerned, thats up to you and the situation. if you think she can escape maybe youll take some damage for her. if shes freaking out and you know she wont run, dont waste your own well being by getting shot so he can take her anyway. if youre 99% sure you can get the gun (no such thing as 100) go for it, if youre not, dont get more people shot than have to be. be smart- living people can still help, dead people cant- and if you attack him, assume hell shoot you.

 

personally though, id tell the woman to run as soon as i saw the gun and give my wallet up.

 

also, since no one brought it up, you can always try to talk your way out of a situation, who knows maybe youll improve it just that much.

 

remember guys, guns beat everything except bombs and missiles, and you dont wanna get shot. go with the odds and obey.

[White Warlock]

nooooo no no no. most people who point a gun at you arent going to use it unless you give them reason.

You do not know this... you are only hoping. It is not at all wise to make snap judgements or to run on statistics. Each and every situation is different, for the 'human element' is involved. You must learn to gauge each and every situation based on the merits of the circumstances and the information available. The quicker you can enter into the minds of your assailants, the sooner you'll come to the answers that may save your life.

 

I just read part of this thread and Shorinryu Sensei's post has prompted me to bring up a 'real life' incident that occured in 1990:

• I was working the night shift at an AM/PM in Sacramento (recently moved there and needed to show employment in order to get an apartment. That's my excuse, and i'm sticking with it). I had a security guard there that night. A nice enough guy, but clearly not someone who would make much of a difference, were an incident to occur. Two customers came in, walked around, talked to the security guard, bought a candy bar and left. Their actions, i thought, were suspicious... but i was busy and had other things to think about. Besides, they left. Because of the circumstances (a security guard, my being busy, these guys having left the store, etc), my personal guard was down.
   
  Setting established, now the story.
   
  One guy returned and immediately headed straight for the security guard. He yelled at the security guard, struck him with what appeared to be the barrel of a gun and grappled him down and onto a soda can display, then stood over him threatening to kill him. As his partner entered the store, I immediately yelled at the security guard to stop (he was pathetically attempting to get back up... twisting on the sodas while the assailant stood over him with the weapon ready to strike again) and then told the assailant that we would cooperate. His partner went to the counter and demanded the money from the register. I cooperated and once again reminded the assailant to stay calm, as well as reminded the security guard. I then opened the register, reached in and pulled the cash tray out with one hand while pushing on the alarm button with the other.
   
  The store's camera was rudely angled to watch the cashier's actions, rather than the customers. Having helped replace and review the tapes in the past, i was aware of this... so i intentionally caused the assailant's partner to reach over (thus getting him on camera) and also had him grab the cash tray from the 'metal' back panel (fingerprints). I once again reminded both the assailant and the security guard to remain calm. I did this primarily to let the assailant see what i did next. I offered to the criminal the second tray hidden under the counter (I already knew that they knew it was there, as i had noticed this particular thief eyeing it the last time they were in. I knew he was going to demand that one next, so i just beat him to it, thus gaining a degree of trust so things wouldn't escalate further). Of course he said yes, so i grabbed it, along with a collection of wrapped coins, and handed it to him... again getting his fingerprints on yet another metal backing as i had him reach for it.
   
  That was it, and the assailant's partner ran out the door. I noted his height. The assailant yelled once more at the security guard and then yelled at me to get down. At that point I noticed that the weapon he had in his hand was NOT a gun. It was some sort of short metal rod (i later found out it was a gas nozzle that they had tore off one of the gas tanks). Suddenly i was enraged, but not quick to switch to combat mode. Instead, I stared at the guy in anger. As he started heading to the door he yelled at me once again to get down. I didn't, so he threw the weapon at me, which i easily avoided... and proceeded to stare at him (I suppose, subconsciously, i was hoping he would try and jump over the counter at me). He hesitated, then thought better of it... and ran out. I noted his height.
   
  I again directed the security guard to stay down and not exit the building. I then called 911 and they reported to me that they were already 'surrounding' the area and doing a lockdown (or some such police drivel). I requested an ambulance as well and then provided a description of the two thieves and their attire. I then noted where the weapon had landed (grumbled a bit when i noticed it was a gas nozzle... but smiled when i realized the assailant's fingerprints were likely all over it) and grabbed a clean cloth. I then applied first aid to the security guard, who was unsuccessfully attempting to get up (partly because he was groggy from his injury and secondarily because he was falling all over the soda cans that had opened up and spewed all over the place... i was going to hate cleaning up that mess).
   
  The police came, i repeated my information to them, as well as informed them that the 'wrapped' coins they stole had a name and phone number written on them of a kid that frequents the store (i had traded bills for the wrapped coins earlier that night).
   
  They were caught within the hour and, after the jury had heared the testimony, they were prosecuted. An interesting memory of all this was that the defense attorney was a practitioner of the arts as well. I can't recall what type, but we chatted for a bit and he had invited me to visit them at some park they practiced at. I never did go to that park.

Okay... so what was all this for? While it could be perceived as a chance for me to brag about how well i reacted under the circumstances, that is not the motive (to be honest, for quite some time i was annoyed at myself for not realizing it wasn't a pistol).

 

Basically, when you are in a situation... and you are a seasoned martial artist (yes, i'm calling myself a seasoned fighter... bah!... friggin' ego...), your mind works very fast. You find yourself analyzing the situation and deciding the best course of action. If you are a natural leader (bah! here i go again with the friggin' ego...), you'll direct others on their best course of action. And, while the decisions you make may not be the best ones... they were the best you could do under the circumstances... and you must accept that.

 

In a confrontation, your mind will take in information from a thousand angles. Your training will help you to filter through that information and learn what to work with, and what to toss out. It will help you to recognize the possible outcomes of a confrontation and 'hopefully' guide you to make the right decision... in saving your life and the lives of others.

 

Thank you for listening to yet another one of my life stories. Eventually i'll run out, or you'll tire of hearing them.