ShoriKid

Looking over the response I have to say, the Aikido man is a good sales man. He's showing diversity in his product and lack of options/attractiveness in the opposing brand. Seriously though? I know of a variety of responses to a set of wrist attacks. I can, yes, punch or kick, the variety of which wouldn't matter to the Aikidoka. I can apply a lock, turn the body, close to use short range weapons, withdraw to off balance etc. Plenty of options really. Not real sure how detailed a response your looking for Bushido_man.

It is an issue. If your throwing light, first touch ends contact, your not learning a lot of things that will change as th contact goes up. As GZK said, you can get by with a lot of bad habits at light contact that won't fly when you crank things up. You don't have to protect your body as much, carry yourself ready to be hit, which is different than not worrying about getting hit with any force. You need a better stance for balance to generate power from and absorb shock. When your point fighting it's to the first hit. Then stop action. No real need for combinations that mechanically work together to generate power. No worry about good defense. Techniques that touch don't always have enough reach left to generate any real damage. He's proved that he can touch me faster. That he's better at tag. That's what point contact is all about. I can face point fighters in their arena and lose plenty of times. And when we pick up the contact and open the targets to include the whole body, I fair very, very well against them. Always have. Point fighting is good at working on reactions, but it doesn't build optimal reactions for heavy contact unless the person trains that way too. Many instructors are just that, good instructors. I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't have the ability to get it done is good, but as an instructor or coach, and if all your worried about are the results, there is no difference, they have to make the person better. What they can personally do in the sport doesn't matter. If they understand the rules/activities and have the ability to see what you need to do to improve, they are a good instructor. Just because you have a faster side kick doesn't mean they can't make you land that kick more often, or teach you how to generate more power than them. What your basically advocating is that anyone past about 35 should give up teaching. By that point, the physical attributes will have deminished to the point that your going to be losing at point fighting on a consistant basis. If your producing high quality, young students they should be faster than you be virtue of good technique and quick reaction times. Do all good football coaches or boxing instructors need to be the best at the game and actively able to take on the people they are coaching? Do even young coaches like Greg Jackson or Mark Dellagrotte have to be able to beat the fighters they train like GSP or Florian? Quality instruction has to be able to build the foundation and begin to expound upon that. They must be able to find the wholes in your skillset and fill them. Take your talents and abilities, see where they can take you the furthest and point you in that direction while providing the guidance to make sure you get as far as you can. In the end, they must know when to point you toward someone else to take you further down the road than they can take you.

Same sort of reaction PittbullJudoka and I got sporting bruises and glove marks at my last job. People were surprised that you could get a black eye in martial arts. The most shocked, the mother of a boy enrolled in a different school.

Brock Lesnar vs. Frank Mir =Mir Georges "Rush" St-Pierre vs. Thiago "Pitbull" Alves = St-Pierre Jon Fitch vs. Paulo Thiago = Fitch Dan "Hendo" Henderson vs. Michael "The Count" Bisping =Henderson Yoshihiro Akiyama vs. Alan "The Talent" Belcher =Belcher Mark "The Hammer" Coleman vs. Stephan "The American Psycho" Bonnar= Bonnar Mac Danzig vs. Jim Miller = Danzig Jon "Bones" Jones vs. Jake "Irish" O'Brien = Jones Dong Hyun "Stun Gun" Kim vs. TJ Grant = Grant CB "The Dobberman" Dollaway vs. Tom "Filthy" Lawlor = Dolloway Matt "The Real One" Grice vs. Shannon Gugerty = Grice

Kuma beat me to one of the reasons I think wrist manipulations are still worth being taught. Weapon retentions, as much as the weapon control/disarms tallgesse talked about, are very good reasons to still teach wrist work. If I have a weapon that I need to deploy, I don't want the person I was using it against, or an ally getting their hands on it. If they pull a weapon and I don't have the "run the heck away" option, I want to keep it out of play. The "ugly street wrestling" that tallgesse brought up is a real possibility as well. A lot of people go with that natural reaction to grab on in a fight. They will try to drag down your arms or control them, that is when the escapes and small joint manipulation can come into play. Wrist control is key in wrestling, along with the collar tie/neck grip. Those two things work like a stearing wheel for someone who can grapple. The untrained with try to tie up your arms out of reflex. When you get on the ground, the wrist work isn't done yet. Actually, getting a wrist manipulation can break open other opportunities for other things. I've gotten wrist locks on people who out muscled and out techniqued me in ground work. You can defend against an armbar and I can turn those locked hands into a wrist compression. Creating opportunities and taking out weapons are good things.

Aches and pains are a normal part of starting any new physical activity. As you progress, what caused you to be sore before won't. And the tings you couldn't do, you will, but you'll be sore. Dobbersky has the right of it in doing knuckle push ups once your hands have healed. If you were hitting an old style canvas bag, they can be rough without hand wraps or bag gloves. A good square strike will be something you learn to do and your knuckles won't suffer nearly so much. Now, tallgeese hit on this a bit. If your training for self defense, you are going to have to hit and be hit at some point. Your going to get dinged and banged up a bit. That is the nature of any sort of training that involves combat or self defense. If you have a good instructor, the introduction to it will be gradual. You'll start with very light, controled contact and work your way up, both giving and receiving. Noob, I don't like hurting people. I enjoy hard training where we make contact though. When I'm hitting a person when we drill or spar, It is never my aim to hurt them. I am simply applying my technique. And while I'm careful not to injure someone, getting hurt happens. I don't do it maliciously though. I do it with the intent to improve both myself and my training partner. Also, always remember this. There is, to me at least, a difference between "injured" and "hurt". "Hurt" is what I expect to be. A sore spot on my thigh from a kick, a black eye or bloodied nose. When I'm sore the morning after, I know it was a good, hard workout. I take my ibuprofine and roll on. "Injured" means I can't train. It means I'm either going to the doctor or nursing something that can't really be fixed by the doc like broken ribs. Something broken, something torn or dislocated is an injury. And someday, they will happen. Again, as long as it's not malicious, it's fine with me. I don't want them to happen, but they could. I could also fall down the stairs at work on the way to lunch and break both legs. Wouldn't be on purpose, but I'd be in a cast all the same. Don't worry about worry about hitting people. A had a very close friend and private student, who I eventually talked into joining the regular class, who was gunshy about hitting to the head. The body he didn't mind, but hitting the head bothered him a lot and he would pull his punches. I told him it was okay, go ahead and hit me. It took months of me hanging my head out there for shots before he finally got comfortable enough to hit me in the face. I've seen other poeple who just aren't agressive when they start training. They just aren't by nature. It is something they can learn to do though. We have some very laid back and non-agressive guys in the dojo. When we put gloves on though, the more experienced ones are very good fighters who just keep coming when you hit them, scamble hard on the ground and crack you good working technique. You don't have to be a violent or agressive person to train. You just have to develope a level of comfort and mindset that allows you to train. If it bothers you to hit someone when your supposed to, remember this. If your not hitting them, your cheating them of their training.

MMA fighters, those of top caliber, are fast, precise and powerful. What makes them look less so is the level of competition that they are facing and the formating of the competition they are in. Marcus Davis, Spencer Fisher, BJ Penn, Mike Swick, Anderson Silva, Rich Franklin, Lyoto Machida, Rashad Evins are all clean, crisp and accurate strikers with plenty of power. I pick lighter weight fighters because they don't have as much raw horsepower as a heavy weight will(though light heavies and middle weights aren't slackers in the raw strength department). If your looking at the Shotokai men and the competition from the video, I'm seeing moderate contact, on a single point format with light protective gear not meant to prevent injury. The fighters know that all they have to do is land one shot to score and win the fight. They are not throughing series of combinations and don't have to concern themselves with defending against such. That is why the tranditional blokcing methods work for them here(more on 'traditional blocking' below). If they were facing a series of blows coming, at full force and in rapid succession, they would have to change their posture, defensive and movement styles. What they are doing, how they are standing, how they are attacking and defending would not work in a full contact, continous environment outside of a lucky shot. They, as bushido_man pointed out, they train for the kind of competition they are in. What they are doing in the video clip provided would get them killed in an MMA formated event. I'm not saying these men aren't quick, or precise, but I don't see anything there that is all that impressive when compaired to other high level combat athletes. Traditional blocking, and we'll stick to "traditional" in the sense of what most people expect from Karate/Kung Fu etc. for example may intercept a lot of strikes at the forearm and seek to redirect the power of the blow instead of stopping it dead. The idea is to then follow up before the attacker has the chance to throw another blow and to maintain contact with the offending limb. When someone is coming at you full bore with the intent to hurt you and is equally, or more skilled, then things get more difficult. Especially when that person is used to getting hit hard. They are harder to put down because the fighter's instinct when hit is to either grab on and pull you down to work the ground or to keep coming forward hitting you hard to buy them time. "Zone" defenses as tallgeese and bushido_man are calling them are a better strategic choice when someone is coming at you with mutlitple attacks, from multiple angles at a high rate of speed and with serious power. If you try to block at the forearm and attack, your very likely going to eat a shot. If you adhear to the limb, you end up in the clinch worrying about elbows, knees and throws. Of course, this all assumes you don't know how much "zone" defense is in traditional blocking/systems. Choki Motobu used a forearm shield/cover for defense in his book on Okinawan Kenpo. We call it answering the phone in our dojo. Boxers and MMA types just call it covering up vs. a hook. The forearm shell of that boxers and MMA fighters use is not radically different than the mid point of a traditional high block. The point where the forearm has dropped and the blocking hand is rising to cover and cross the chambering hand is a good, solid defense. Where I was told, in a traditional Okinawain style, that this is where you go if you don't have time to complete the head block for defense. Same with the chest level block. The cross is your cover when you don't have time to complete the block. And against someone throwing multiple shots fast and hard, your going to be hard pressed for time. You were impressed that some of the men were knocked out through an inch of padded glove. Having watched the video, I'm not that impressed. Not meaning that to sound insulting, but the vast majority of the knockout hits land on or just past the point of the chin. The "sweet spot" in boxing for a knockout. I caught a training partner 2 nights ago in the same spot, light/moderate contact in the same spot with a training glove that has multiple density foam to make it as protective as a 16oz glove. He would have received either a standing 8 or a TKO from that shot. After he recovered enough to continue, by his accounts, he caught me with a straight right in the same spot that did the same to me. Small gloves and punches to the jaw line tend to produce knockouts, simple as that. While I greatly appreciate the work and technique that goes into an Ippon match, and can watch and enjoy it at high levels, I don't consider what they do anymore artful or demanding of skill than an equivellently skilled MMA bout.

I started with Pinan Sho, then the next generation (a group coming through about three years after in a large group) started with Pinan Nidan. The foot work was easier in Nidan by many's reconning. and I'm siding with Fish here. Naihanchi seems easy. Timing, body linking, proper stance work etc. make it far more difficult to get a handle on than some thought. I could be biased though, I spent a lot of time on Nainhanchis and after I got over the initial hate of the repetition to dig into the content, I loved them.

Going to spoil his fun a little and say PittbullJudoka has started a formal BJJ program. Apparently we suck on the ground despite the rolling. But, for a stand up school with a wrestling background, we don't suck that much if it makes sense.

Wanderlei Silva vs. Rich Franklin = Franklin, Dec Cain Velasquez vs. Heath Herring = Velasquez, Ko Spencer Fisher vs. Caol Uno = Fisher, KO Mike Swick vs. Ben Saunders = Swick, KO Marcus Davis vs. Dan Hardy = Davis, Sub Terry Etim vs. Justin Buchholz = Etim, Sub Dale Hartt vs. Dennis Siver = Hartt, KO Stefan Struve vs. Denis Stojnic = struve, Sub Mirko Filipovic vs. Mustapha Al-Turk = Filipovic, KO Peter Sobotta vs. Paul Taylor =Taylor, KO Paul Kelly vs. Roli Delgado = Kelly, Ko

I totally understand. With a knowledge base that includes everything that is operationally needed, of course the end product and training will be better. If I were a 20 year vet of SWAT work, experienced in martial arts etc, I would know more about the needs of SWAT officers in hand to hand situations than a man with twice my knowledge base in martial arts, but without the police experience.

A lot of that tallgeese boils down to effectiveness of training. How much time can anyone spend on a skill that will very rarely be called into use? While a law enforcement branch might see far more of it than most military units, it still isn't going to be high priority. Not with a laundry list of other skills that have to be mastered for daily operations. So, when budgeting your time, your going to look for the most efficient way to train a skill so that it can be brought up to the required levels and maintained with the least investment of time. the SPEAR program, and some others work very well. I could, with a few weeks of time and tought pair down most traditional karate to a core program meant to gain quick proficiency. It will look at lot like the MCMAP from what I know of it. There will be some changes and things done differently, but the idea is to put out simple, effective skills that can be learned quickly, applied in a lot of situations and you can simply build off of later. As I think I've said before, I don't think there is any "magic bullet" of systems that makes supermen out of anybody in just a few hours, letting them easily defeat much better conditioned and highly skilled fighters. If there were, it would be out there and everyone would be doing it. There is no conspiracy by traditional martial artists trying to keep this information from the public.

Mike Brown vs. Urijah Faber =Brown, Ko Jose Aldo vs. Cub Swanson =swanson, sub James Krause vs. Donald Cerrone =Cerrone, KO Josh Grispi vs. Jens Pulver =Pulver, sub Manny Gamburyan vs. John Franchi =Gamburyan, sub Mike Campbell vs. Anthony Pettis = Pettis, ko Scott Jorgensen vs. Antonio Banuelos =Banuelos, dec Eddie Wineland vs. Frank Gomez =Wineland, ko Rolando Perez vs. Seth Dikun= Perez, sub

Mostly I'm a left lead man. Being left handed, I'm an exception, but I put my strong lead forward for other reasons. Not the least is a stiffer jab and good lead hook. I've started working on fighting as a south paw to see how i would far. I've always trained for the opposing lead, but I'm not a big fan of changing stances mid fight. If I get there due to a change in position or because something changed during the fight, I go with what I've got.

Machida's post fight with Joe Rogan was very cool. Gracious in victory and finishes with "Karate is back!" I just love how the karate influence, being a different striking base than boxing and MT, i sso confounding to everyone he's fought.

Been watching Deadliest Warrior since the first show. And, I've hit the Spike site for "Aftermath" a kind of sit down with some of the weapon experts after the fact. Much calmer, much more respectful. The forums they have there have some of the people who do the demos on the show posting. Usually they are far more respectful there and you find out the show's producers/directors are wanting them to really up the trash talking. Apparently, "Cool, interesting...that would hurt" are not the responces they want to the opposing team chopping up the jell dummy. What killed me were the pairings. Only about 2 or 3 made any sense. Gladiator vs. Apache, iron age vs stone age weapons..?? Samurai vs. Viking...alright, okay I guess Pirate vs. knight ..... Mafia vs. Yakuza, actually a good match up. Spartan vs. Ninja, See pirate vs. knight, only more of it and worse. Green Beret vs. Spatnez(can't spell it) it came down to a pump vs. semi auto shotgun and a spring loaded knife vs. E-tool for close combat. Why no tomahawk vs. spring loaded knife?? Or semi-auto shotgun for GBs? Shaolin vs. Moari, again, iron age vs. stone age weapons. Shori's match ups. Mafia/Yakuza, GB/Spatnez are okay. Changes in GB weapons being made. samurai vs. knight, it's the classic match up that every geek/history lower debates Spartan vs. gladiator-semilar level of weapon tech, close time period Apache vs. Moari-See above Ninja vs. Pirate-As the geeks say(and Lord help, i know I'm one) the only thing that can beat a Ninja(before it flips out and kills everyone) is a pirate Viking vs. Shaolin-Similar tech level, both skilled with opposing views on combat The Warriors show with Terry Schappert is very nice. I know the history is a bit shallow at times, but it's got enough depth and feeling to come alive and spark interest and inform. Which, to me, makes it a good show. The respect that Terry treats the cultures he's introduced to, usually through native people and living historian types, is very nice. I think he feels a connection with past warrior cultures and is just as in awe as any of us would be. The last show focusing on the Alamo Scouts from WWII was nice. When he met one of the scouts at the end I could feel the hair on my arms standing up. That was a very touching bit of tv and he showed great respect for what would be a direct, military ancestor to the tradition he is now part of. I really liked that.

Rashad Evans vs. Lyoto Machida= Machida, ko Matt Hughes vs. Matt Serra = Hughes, KO Dan Miller vs. Chael Sonnen = Sonnen, dec Sean Sherk vs. Frankie Edgar =Sherk, ko Drew McFedries vs. Xavier Foupa-Pokam =Foupa-Pokam, dec Brock Larson vs. Chris Wilson = Larson, Sub Yoshiyuki Yoshida vs. Brandon Wolff = Yoshida, KO Tim Hague vs. Patrick Barry =Hague, KO Phillipe Nover vs. Kyle Bradley =Nover, Dec Andre Gusmao vs. Krzysztof Soszynski =Soszynski, sub George Roop vs. David Kaplan =Roop, Sub

As many it takes? If I have a student training with someone else, that's cool. Heck, I'll ask them what their into, maybe talk with that instructor. I want to have a good relationship with all of the instructors in the area. I'll send them folks who want what they have, and hope they do the same. If it's a flim flam instructor, well, I protect my students from that sort of thing if I can. If someone is asking a question, that's cool with me. I'll try to explain as best I can. However, there comes a time when you need to just shut up and do the technique/train. I'll give you the why and how, but you have to give me the reps and the sweat.

JusticeZero, The heel isn't usually "stomped" so much as "dropped" to the floor. As the hips line up and everything comes into place, if your ina zenkutsu dachi, the rear heel will plant itself as you punch. Or should. It isn't really pushing either so much as grounding out the punch. It provides the stability to your technique and takes the give out of your stance. Kuma, I thought the 110 rounder was in New Orleans near the end of the bareknuckle erra in the 1890s? Nice thing to recall is that, I did a paper on the boxing heroes of the late 1800s/early 1900s years back, many of those fights were still fought under the London Prize rules. A round lasts until a "fall" or knock down. So a round could go 30 seconds, or 8 minutes, it didn't matter. As long as you could come to scratch, you could fight. Sensei8, Hip movement, not neccisarily rotation, is needed for good technique to be complete in many cases. However, it's cyclical. Without good upper body mechanics and relaxation, the power of the hips is cut off. Without good balance and transition, the power of the hips is lost as it transfers all over without being deposited in the target. A good engine is nice to have in your sports car, but without the suspension and steering to handle that power, it's not much good to you.

I think your looking at power punchers way more than "Boxers" WNM. They do "punches in bunches", one movement feeding the next with their feet constantly in motion. Boxers are not flat footed in most cases and really work to have one strike feed the next. Yes, their weapons are more limited than karate-ka, but good foot work is good foot work if your in a high, mobile stance. When I'm talking about having a good "root" it's not about working out of zenkutsu. I can be in Shizentai dachi and have a good, "rooted" stance. I'm stable, balanced and can generate all the power I need from anything I do from that stance. Now a lot of power in a punch can be generated in a shift in stance. As I come up from zenkutsu up to shizentai dachi with a reverse punch, I can produce a lot of power off of that transition. The level change, hip movement and momentum all come together there. Nice, relaxed movement between them, with an explosion of energy at the appropriate momemnt in the technique is where the power comes from.

On the ground, as on your feet, any sort of preasure point work should be viewed as it should be applied, as octane boost, not the engine. Your basic, bread and butter, techniques are what drive your fighting. Wheather on your feet or on the ground. Knowing how to cause, maybe, a specific reaction, or weaken a joint, helps, but it's not a substitue for knowing how to break lose an arm to lock the shoulder or elbow. Striking, from the bottom, as tallgeese says, does things. For one thing, even if your not knocking someone out, they are covering up and not hitting you. It might also cause them to move in a way that you need them to to secure a lock or choke. So, don't neglect it. But like a lot of other things, they have to be trained to know what your doing.

Something to remember as well is to relax. If your worried about the power of a technique you often tense up and try to "push" a punch or block. With correct technique and relaxed snap, you'll build that sharp penitrating power.

You may want to see if the US Sport Jujitsu still runs tourney's with continous contact. 2-2minute rounds. Looks like the World tourney will be in Florida, with the US Open, instead of South Carolina as usual. Here's the website http://www.sportjujitsu.org/

It's a matter of awareness and judgement. If your not comfortable with the idea of striking first, don't. If you are and you think the situation warrents it, commit to the act. For me, I'm on the side of striking first under certain circumstances. It's a matter of action being faster than reaction.

The others have you pretty well covered on what ground fighters are seeking to do. It's the same as stand up fighters, end things quickly, taking the least damage possible. What I'll address the above quoted section though. There is absolutely nothng wrong with the karate instructor not teaching ground work. They should no more teach ground work than mostly grappling instructors should be teaching striking. Bad instruction is often more dangerous than no instruction. If your friend wants to learn to fight from the ground, seek out qualified instruction. I'd add in the cavet that "most" fights go to the ground for 2 reasons. One is that most people have no training and thus cannot maintain their balance or control the range of the fight well enough to keep from crashing into one another and going down under the weight of their attacker. Secondly, the most basic of instincts that most people have in a fight is to grab onto the attacker/target once action starts and get in close. If feels more like your doing damage then. Then, we get back to poor balance in a close grapple due to lack of training. If it comes to the often cited stat of 90% of fights going to the ground, I'll meantion that this number was taken from the LAPDs records of altercations and struggles officers were involving in while making arrests. While I don't wish to down play the good data that can be mined from that report, the thing to keep in mind is that police officers are trying to make an arrest. At some point they want to immobilize the subject and restrain them. It's a lot easier to do that when you have the person on the ground and can press them out flat or control limbs to get cuffs on them.