Montana

One thing that nobody has mentioned yet, is the fundamental purpose of the martial arts at the beginning of their existance. Self-survival. No worries about points. Forget trophies, and forgot how cool you look doing a high kick. Karate, JJ, KungFu, etc is all about, at the core level, self-preservtion of yourself, or others. Period. High kicks are a relatively new "invention". They have little, or no, effectiveness outside of tournaments, demonstrations and "dojo fun times". High kicks, in a real fight situation, leave you with poor balance and most importantly, vulnerable to a wide variety of counter moves, not so say the least of which is your groin/knee area is totally exposed and suseptable to being taken out. I've had this same discussion many, many times over the past 30 plus years with sensei from systems that do high kicks, flying kicks and jumping/spinning kicks. Yes, they look cool, but unless your opponent stands still like a post, they are generally very ineffective in a real situation. I admire the athletic abilities of these people to do the gymnastics type of kicks that they do, but I'm from the old school...if it won't work in a real situation, then it's not worthwhile.

My origional sensei was a 3rd dan, and the guy from MN was a 4th, so we "assumed" (you know what that means of course) that he was correct. Well, he wasn't, but at the time we were starved for ANYBODY that could teach us more. I was without a sensei for 7 years when I travelled to Minnisota to meet a 6th Dan (not the same as the other guy) by the name of Sensei Greg Ohl and trained with him. He was doing things exactly the same as I had been doing (the correct way) and I was totally surprised that he made very few, and only minor changes to my techniques. Legitimate (there are a lot of "wannabes) Matsumura Seito Sensei are few and far between in the states, but I absolutely, and unconditionally love this system.

As martial artists, regardless of what system you choose to practice, we are weapons. That's what we are training for...or should be at least IMO. Whether you decide to utilize that "weapon" or not in a confrontation, is your decision. My wife and I choose to live in the country on our own little 5 acres of paradise 15 miles from town. It's quiet, I have good neighbors that I trust and we watch over each other's property when we're not around. At the front of my driveway, about 60 yards from my house, I have a sign nailed to a tree that says... "If you can read this, you're in range!" "NO TRESPASSING or SOLICITING!" We have horses that are GREAT at letting us know when we have "visitors", and also a great big black lab that does the same. I am well armed with a variety of "reach out and touch someone" firearms for both long distance (30-06 that I cat hit a gallon milk jug at 300 yards), mid-range (SKS at 100 yards) and close quarters (home defender shotgun, .357 mag, 9mm and a couple of .22's) and have a military background and training. If there would happen to be civil unrest in town, I would go to work using a route which would avoid that unrest and the same with going home. There are 2 small towns close by, so I could avoid "the city" totally if needed except to work. I have a ton of pellet stove pellets in the garage, and I tend to buy food in bulk. I have my own well and a gas powerede generator, which gets used several times during a typical winter here. I'm not paranoid by any means, but open minded enough to understand that "stuff" happens sometimes, and I'd rather be prepared before I needed to be, rather than after it's to late.

2 day tests? 7-9 hours of testing? Music??? I'm sorry, but what does any of that have to do with the martial arts and what you know? I like the way the head of our system tested, and the way I have been testing my students since the early 80's. When you know what I want you to know and do it with the skill level I want you to do it at, I give you a certificate and you're promoted. Takes all of 2 minutes. Then we get back to work and train some more.

Along the same lines as this topic, I studied and got my shodan from my sensei in June of 1978 and about a year later my sensei moved to the other side of the country. Living in a small town in Montana (12,000 people) with no other sensei in my chosen system any closer than a 10 hour drive away (Seattle, but I didn't know it at the time), myself and the other students were left to our own devices pretty much. There were 3 shodan black belts altogether, myself being the most senior time-wise by over a year. Long story short, we three and our students trained as well as we could, but eventually one of the other black belts started being a real pain and wanting to change everything to the way HE felt things should be done, which was contrary to the way we were taught by our sensei. So we split off and the other black belt and I went elsewhere and took about 75% of the class with us and started another dojo in my basement. Life was good for a couple of years until the "renegade" blackbelt called me one day and said he was in contact with a 4th Dan BB in Minnesota that was going to come for a weeks visit soon, and if we agreed to pay half his expenses he would allow us to train with him. We agreed, and that's when all heck broke loose! This 4th Dan changed literally EVERYTHING from what we had learned. Blocks were higher and more extended, we started throwing hips into techniques (not something we were taught origionally by our other sensei), katas changed, etc. So we changed to this new way of doing things, and continued that way for maybe 5 years or so, until I found an address from a 7th Dan in our system by the name of Ron Lindsey in Texas. Sensei Lindsey is one of the top Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito people in the country. Sensei Lindsey sent me a couple of excellent video tapes he had made and when my senior student and I sat down to eagerly watch them, we were just about floored! Sensei Lindsey did things the same way we USED to do them before meeting the 4th Dan from Minnesota!!! Within a week we changed back to the way we had origionally learned. I offered to make copies of the tapes and give them to our renegade "partner", but he declined saying that the way the 4th Dan was doing things was correct. So our split continued, which was fine with me. My gut told me the way the 4th Dan was teaching us wasn't right because it contradicted what we were taught by our origional sensei. I should have gone with my gut, but all has been well since that time, and we continue to practivce true Shorin Ryu as it was intended to be leanred. What the "renegade" is doing, I haven't a clue, and really don't care.

Something to also consider is that getting a BB in that system will not win you any respect in the martial arts community, despite any other BB you might attain. You would always have that little stigma hanging over your head. My thoughts anyway.

Sorry, but I couldn't help myself. Unfortunately, having been in the arts some 35 years or so now, I've had the dubious privilage of seeing arts like this being taught around the country. It's sad that the public that is seeking a legitimate martial art to learn doesn't have a clue that they are being taken by people like this.

Agreed, except in my case it'd be a 12 guage Home Defender loaded with alternating rounds of O-O buck and slugs for close in defense, and my Chinese SKS with hollow points for that "reach out and touch someone" situation. Very accurate at 200 yards. Or there's always the .357, .44 mag. or the ..... But for walking the streets during a riot (which is asking for trouble), it would be just me and whatever weapon I have at hand if the situation warrants.

A very solid post!! Agreed!!!

Hand chambering is used to learn proper technique for punching, not for sparring.

Well, an "example" of my response could be (but not limited to) to leap backwards a half step to avoid the attack causing the attacker to miss, which makes them off balance and exposing their side because they anticipated striking me, then to lunge forward with a snap kick to his lower abdomen/ribs or a groin/knee kick (whatever is available) and followed up with punches. There are many other options of course including what we call "change of body", or body shifting where your front foot remains stationary and your back foot shifts away from the opponent and you simultanously (sp?) move your body, block and throw your counter strike, usually followed up immediately with low kicks to vulnerable parts of the knees, groin or lower abdomen. Body shifting is hard to explain in print...much easier to show in a demonstration, but unfortunately I can't do that. I tried to get on utube to see if I could find an example of this and it wants me to register..what is that about? I tr4ied to register and it was supposed to send me some sort of "pin number", but it failed because I don't have premium messaging on my phone. Sooo...if you want to do a search for shorin ryu body shifting and see if there's something on there about it, feel free! lol

There is no "best technique" for any given attack. What works for me and that I choose to use at 6'6" tall and 245 lbs with 35 years of experience and training, may not work for the 5' tall, 100 lb women with 6 months of training and experience. That's why different techniques are learned and practiced.

If ones a black belt and this black belt isn't knowledgeable in self-defense, then imho, that practitioner shouldn't be a black belt in the first place...imho. AGREED! 100%!!!

Hmmm..I'm wondering if "Effective Self-Defense" might be considered a legal bad idea? You can teach people and they can walk out feeling like they're supposed to be able to defend themselves, but if they get their butt-whooped by some punk on the street, they might come back and sue the dojo for false advertising, or "not as described" perhaps?

Krav Maga, BJJ and others are based and developed by people with extensive martial arts backgrounds in proven systems, not "shake-and'bake", a little of this and a little of that backgrounds. I don't necessarily agree that systems need to "evolve" constantly, because there are only so many ways a person can be attacked by grabs, hands, feet and weapons. What Bruce Lee did was to have a solid background in a viable martial art and study and train intensely other systems and then create a system using solid, proven techniques that he understood. There's a big difference there. What I was trying to state in my original post was referring to those that take a few MONTHS of one system, a few of another, etc and never really LEARN a whole system before declaring themselves a master and starting their own systems. Then they promote others and send those out to teach others a very weak system..such as "Rex Kwon Do". I'm sure most of us in this forum know of systems like what we're talking about here. Very weak systems that should die out, if there were any justice in this world. There's a big difference there.

In another forum that I visit now and then there was a thread about what makes a good sensei. One person posted that to make a good sensei, they had to be someone that was well respected "world wide", had published books and videos, been written about in Black Belt Magazine and had shelves and shelves of trophies from international tournaments. My reply to his statement was ....... BAH! When the vast majority of sensei, both in the USA and abroad, teach out of their homes, garages or gyms, don't write books and might only make videos for their own students to use sometimes, does that make them poor instructors? I don't think so! Even on Okinawa, Japan, Korea, etc, the vast majority of sensei's don't have large, commercial dojos. They teach out of their homes for the most part and don't attempt to make a living with their teachings. They have knowledge they have accumulated over many years of study and teach small classes to those that want to learn. Most don't have videos for sale. Most have never appeared in Black Belt Magazine other than as a small footnote perhaps, and most have nothing to do with the international tournament circuit. So I guess they aren't good sensei, right?

This ought to stir up some good discussion! You'll often see people in this form state that "it's not the system, but rather the sensei/instructor that makes a good dojo. Well, to that I say BAH! I'm not going to try to define what a good martial art is, or a good sensei because everybody has their own ideas of what those are. My thoughts won't be the same as yours (although if you were smart, you'd follow me without question! ). But back to what this thread is about. You can have a good martial art, say Shorin Ryu, Shotokan (pick one), etc, but the instructor of that particular dojo you are attending might not be all that good of an instructor. Sure, technically he can do all of the things that he was tested for at the belt level he carries, but can he teach it to others? I know some wonderful martial artists that are very skilled in their respective arts, but they are terrible teachers. They don't have the patience to work with beginners and have difficulty explaining concepts to people and understand why others don't quite "get it" like they did when they first learned it. They are good martial arts teaching a good system, but they are lousy instructors and turn out mediocre students. In other instances I know some instructors that are fantastic teachers and can teach anything to anyone! However, they are teaching systems that are, well...how do you say it nicely? SUCK! Specifically, many of these systems are ones that were "invented" by their instructors 10-20 years ago. Their instructors had a few months of training in this system, a few months of training in that system and maybe got as far as to get a brown or low level black belt in one system, and they decide to combine all of this vast knowledge they've accumulated from numerous systems into one "perfect" and all encompassing new martial art that they just happen to decide they are now a master of. So they start teaching classes to "newbies" that don't know what they're looking at, promote those people up through the ranks to eventually black belt level. These new black belts start their own dojos and off they go, teaching a martial art that is weak and based on one persons opinion that a little of this system, and a little of that system makes a good martial art, when in reality it's a very weak system. The perfect situation here, in my opinion of course, is to find a really good, and well respected martial art that you want to try, that has a good sensei that has the patience, knowledge and experience to pass on even the most subtle concepts of their martial art to others.

I've posted this before, but the way that I test is that my students know that they are being tested in literally EVERY class. They know better than to ask me to test because that tells me that they aren't ready yet mentally, not necessarily physically. I don't want students that are there for belts, but instead they are there for knowledge. When I feel a students is ready to progress to that next belt level, I will ask them in class to do a certain thing or two (or more) that I know they have been struggling with. Whether that is a kata, or certain techniques. When I am satisfied they are where I want them to be for a certain belt, I will award that belt to them at the end of the class. I've never seen a point to many hours or days of testing someone. Either they know it, or they don't, and the instructor should be able to tell that on a daily basis in my opinion. To make someone stress over a test is idiotic in my opinion because EVERYBODY stresses if they know they are being tested, and I see no benefit of subjecting someone to that. I want each of my students to work hard and do their best in each class. If I feel they aren't giving me 100%, then they don't advance. I'm well aware that 100% effort for an 18 year old is different that 100% effort from a 60 year old, and I adjust accordingly. I've been testing this way since I started teaching my first class in 1978 and I like it. So do my students, because they know that if they don't work hard and make corrections accordingly, they won't advance. I have one student, a 58 year old man, who's probably my hardest working student, but there are things that he just can't "get". Not physically, as he runs 5 miles several times/ week and can do more pushups than anybody else in the class (and they are PERFECT pushups!). Rather, he doesn't "get" some things in the realm of the concepts of the technique and kata. He's been stuck in his last brown belt (just before black) for about 5 years now, and he's ok with it because he knows full well what he's lacking to get his shodan. He'll get it some day...just when, we're not sure yet.

Various systems have various interpretations of the bunkai of kata, and like all bunkai in all traditional kata there is more than one bunkai that exists for every move. The last movements of Passai are primarily a slow sweeping motion which is feeling in the dark for your opponent, then upon touching them your first hand is reaching out and grasping their arm/coat/etc and pulling them in while the other hand is reaching for a nerve in the area where the neck meets the shoulder.

Without knowing the bunkai (IMO) of a kata, then movements of kata are meaningless. You might as well be dancing. You need to visualize what your opponent is doing that causes you to do a certain technique in the kata as you do the kata. It brings the movement alive and gives it meaning. Without knowing the bunkai and what it is that you're doing and defending against, then what's the point of doing a kata?

Actually, traditional kata DO mimic fights. The movements are based upon the experiences of the origionators of the kata on techniques that they, themselves, used in a real situation. They found the techniques effective and incorporated them into kata to pass the techniques on to others. [/u]

Bassai (we call them Passai) kata's last moves are not "cooler" because they're done slow, they have bunkai, just like every other move in a kata. The final movements in the Bassai/Passai kata are techniques done in the dark where you can't see your opponent, and are "feeling" with your feet, then reaching out with one hand and grasping your opponents wrist and applying either an arm bar, or attacking the nerves in the neck with your other hand. No moves are done in "traditional" kata because they're cool. They all have a purpose and an application.

I'd tell you about my first belt test...if I could remember back that far! Without going out to the garage and finding just the right box where my certificate is, I'm not quite sure when it was. Probably around March or April...1975. All I can remember is...I passed!

True, I seldom had parents that would sit in and watch their kids in class, and even more seldom would they ever ask me "What can I do to hep my son/daughter do better?" I had a nice seating area for parents/visitors, but about the only time I saw some parents was when they enrolled their kids. Otherwise they'd sit in their cars and wait for them to come out. Sad really. Most parents don't get as involved as they should.

Not really. The belt system had nothing to do with with students not liking to be a white belt for 10 years. The belt system was introduced to show the progression of skills (theoretically anyway) and time spent in the arts, not to gratify the students.