ChangWuJi

Does Sakuraba come to mind? And each Kung Fu system has Chinese wrestling, joint locks or Chi'n NA, as well as striking incorporated into it. So what I am saying is that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is not superior to any other style because each style or system has its strenghs and weaknesses. ALso have you ever seen an internal arts master? They are so quick so powerful, I mean your neck can be snapped so quickly it is beyond comprehension.

What do either of those videos prove? I could make a video of me kicking the crap out of everyone in my Aikido class, Kendo class, White Dragon class, AND Wu Shu class, but it wouldn't mean that "my style" is better than any of those I listed above. What your videos show, quite simply, is that the BJJ practitioners, in those circumstances, could defeat their opponents. IN NO WAY does it prove in the slightest that BJJ is a "better style" than Judo or Capoeira. I'm guessing you've never seen someone with a high degree of skill perform moves either, it's not like you'll see on film, because film isn't fast enough (literally, there's a move in Enter the Dragon that HAD to be filmed in slow motion because it happened faster than the cameras could capture at normal speed) And you still don't understand why something that takes 40 seconds to take effect is not EFFECTIVE, because it traps YOU, and endangers your life. You've never seen a real master of a martial art enter a tournament, because a true master would never seek out conflict, but if you saw someone try to threaten a master's life with one of your grappling heavy arts, they would likely be dead before they got a grapple in. (hell, they would against someone with armed forces training, that's brutally effective, and is designed for life or death situations) Just another hint: If you are skilled you can escape any joint lock _before_ it makes you immovable, while, if someone hits with a full-body strike to the head, it's over. This is the difference between movie and reality.

I think it basically started with this UFC nonsense. The reason why I say nonsense, is because the UFC was populated by so called "experts" in the field of martial arts. Needless to say, these guys showed no technique, balance, speed, or anything that would normally represent years of quality instruction. These buffoons were labeled as "experts in traditional MA" when in fact these guys where any thing but. Naturally, out of the wood work comes these various characters bemoaning how out of date and useless "traditional" arts are and how they, some how discovered what more than an accumalative of over 5000 years of fighting history and experience has not. Never mind the fact that a person has but so many ways to attack you. But, according to these guys, something very dramatic must have occurred during the early ninties that has rendered techniques that have proven themselves in both personal combat and all out melee situations on battlefields absolutely useless. Using the UFC and other farces as the standard for self defence they go about convincing people, mostly young men to believe in their primitve( and often laughable techniques) or such fallacies like :"99% of fights go to the ground" (if was true, then basically all martial arts would be based on ground fighting and there would be almost no reason to learn proper balance and foot work). I think this was bound to happen sooner or later. 1.) Because scam artist show up in just about any endeavor. 2.) There are a lot of people precieved as experts in MA and really have no skill at all. And just like with anything esle.....people will allways pay much more attention to the negative than to the positive. For one I have been in situations (more than I care to admit) were I have witnessed and been involved violent confrontations and very rarely have I seen people fall to the ground unless knocked there, and if knocked there never have I a seen anybody with half a brain actively dive down there with them, or if they had both fallen, at least not make an attempt to get back on their feet. This is real life, not some ridiculous sideshow with bunch or wrestlers claiming their vaunted superiority over some clowns flailing about the ring calling themselves 'experts'. I saw no footwork, I saw no fluidity, I saw no tenacity...and these are things that I often found in skilled street fighters, let alone these jokers. I have had enough experience to know a skilled fighter in action when I see one. Just because some guy signs the line as a blackbelt, does that make him an expert? Does that make him capable of taking care of himself if he finds himself in a violent confrontation? Absolutely not. Futhermore, it doesnt even really guarantee that he is a 'blackbelt' at all, infact I fail to see what being given a blackblet by someone who is probably recieving money for your advancement proves at all. Oh, and one more thing.....In earlier times, and even today....you did not have the luxury of establishing what could and could not be done as you do with NHB or any fighting tournament that is held these days. You did not have the luxury of being able to tap out or being secure in the knowledge that your opponent would not grab and savagely wrench your testicles or lips, or hook and viciously tear at your nostrils when your decide that you are going to wrestle him to "death". This stuff is okay for sport....but I for one, if told by some guy that I should become his sicofant diciple because he won alot of fights by rolling around on the ground with some guy who didnt know what in the hell he was doing by rolling around on a padded mat, will be sure to take it with a grain of salt.

Tuo Jiau ( pierceing foot). This is a northern style. They litteraly rely soley on their legs. I exchanged hands with one of them. It is trully a unforgetable experience. Their kicks are so fast, I can't even get inside ( I study Hsing-I and Bagua, so I need to fight close distance). My exponent never even bother to use his hands since his legs are very fast and keep people out. Try this one out if you are interested. BTW, anyone seen Hwang Jang Lee's instructional video called "The Art of High-Impact Kicking"? "Hwang Jang Lee Nickname Silver Fox King of the Leg Fighters Former taekwondo(eventually reaching 7th dan equivalent) teacher of Korean Army This Korean powerhouse actually killed a man in real life (in self-defense) during when he was stationed in Vietnam, during war there. It seems the man was a "knife expert" who claimed that the knife is superior to "any" form of unarmed combat. Wang disagreed with that "statement" and an argument soon followed where the "knife expert" challenged Wang to "prove" his point to which Wang declined, went to turn his back when the guy lunged at him. Wang turned and fired a "round-kick" hitting the guy "square" in the temple, killing him instantly." I also heard other stories of Hwang Jang Lee in Vietnam, also that in Hong Kong in 1977 he was involved in a publicized challenge match with Cheng Ki-Ying, then a full-contact champ in HK. The bout never happened, as Cheng's wife was afraid Cheng would get hurt.

"Xing Yi Quan (Hsing Yi Ch'uan) is the oldest of the orthodox, internal styles of Chinese martial art (predating the creation of both Taiji Quan and Ba Gua Zhang). Xing refers to form or shape and Yi commonly refers to the mind or intent. Quan [fist] denotes a method of unarmed combat. Xing Yi Quan is commonly referred to as Form and Mind or Form and Will boxing. The name illustrates the strong emphasis placed on the motion of the body being subordinate to conscious control. The form the body takes is an external manifestation of the internal state of mind and is the underlying premise behind Xing Yi Quan as a method of combat. The exact details of the origins of Xing Yi Quan are unknown. The creation of the Art is traditionally attributed to the famous general and patriot Yue Fei (1103-1141) of the Sung Dynasty. Being a beloved historical figure and warrior, Yue Fei is credited with the creation of several systems of martial arts. There is, however, no historical evidence to support the claim that he had anything to do with the creation of the art Xing Yi Quan. The style was originally called Xin Yi Liu He Quan [Heart Mind Six Harmonies Boxing]. The Six harmonies refer to the Three Internal Harmonies (the heart or desire harmonizes with the intent; the intent harmonizes with the Qi or vital energy; the Qi harmonizes with the physical strength), and the Three External Harmonies (the shoulders harmonize [coordinate] with the hips; the elbows harmonize with the knees; the hands harmonize with the feet). The practitioner's internal processes harmonize and coordinate the external movement, unifying the person as a whole into the most powerful state possible. The earliest reliable historical information we have makes reference to Ji Long Feng (also known as Ji Ji Ke) of Shan Xi Province as being the first to teach the art of Xin Yi Liu He Quan. Ji Long Feng was active near the end of the Ming Dynasty (early 1600's) and was a master of spear fighting [he had the reputation of possessing "divine" skill with the spear]. He is recorded as stating, "I have protected myself in violent times with my spear. Now that we are in a time of peace and our weapons have all been destroyed, if I am unarmed and meet the unexpected how shall I defend myself? " In answer to his own question, Ji Long Feng reportedly created a style of weaponless combat based on his expertise with the spear. He referred to his art as Liu He, The Six Harmonies. Ji Long Feng had two very famous students. One was from He Bei Province and was named Cao Ji Wu. The other was from He Nan province and was named Ma Xue Li. It was at this point in history that the Xin Yi Liu He Quan [now also referred to as Xin (heart) or Xing (form) Yi Quan] divided into three separate yet related styles: the Shan Xi, He Nan and He Bei schools. After spending twelve years studying Xin Yi with Ji Long Feng, Cao Ji Wu entered the Imperial Martial Examinations and placed first [this was the most prestigious honor one could possibly win as a martial artist in Dynastic China, and as the reward for victory was an assured high level military appointment, the competitive exam attracted the cream of the martial crop from the entire country]. Cao's high profile martial status brought fame to the Art. Cao Ji Wu, in turn, passed on the Xin Yi Quan to two famous brothers, Dai Long Bang and Dai Lin Bang. Dai Long Bang further developed the Art and the written classics of the style are attributed to him. Dai Long Bang in turn transmitted the Art to its most famous exponent, the renowned Li Luo Neng (also known as Li Neng Ran; he was nicknamed "Divine Fist Li"). Li Luo Neng holds the distinction of being the greatest Xing Yi boxer in the styles' history and one of the top Chinese boxers of all time. Li Luo Neng taught his art in his native Shan Xi Province and also taught a great number of students in He Bei Province [his duties as a bodyguard involved escorting various members of wealthy families to and from He Bei]. Two of Li's most famous Shan Xi students were Sung Shi pong and Che Ti Zhai. Li's most famous He Bei student was the formidable Guo Yun Shen, who reportedly defeated all comers with his famous Beng Quan, a straight punch to the body [as a youth in training, Guo would walk several miles to and from his teacher's house every day, practicing his Beng Quan every step of the way]. After spending several years incarcerated for killing a man in a platform challenge match [under the law of the times, fighters were not held liable if they killed their opponent during organized challenge matches, but after the unfortunate fight in which Guo's opponent died, he was arrested. When Guo protested and quoted the law of exoneration for platform fighters, he was told that "a man of your level of skill should have more control and was sentenced to several years in prison], Guo Yun Shen passed on his art to Wang Fu Yuan, Liu Chi Lan and Sun Lu Tang, among others. Liu Chi Lan passed on the Art to the most famous practitioners of this century, including Li Cun Yi and Zhang Zhao Dong. There are many practitioners of all three substyles of Xing Yi Quan active today, and the Art is still a popular and well respected style of martial art in China and abroad. The art of Xing Yi Quan is divided into two main systems: the Ten Animal and the Five Elements. The Five-Element system is further divided into two main branches, the He Bei and Shan Xi styles. The Ten Animal style is closest to the original Xin Yi Liu He Quan in form and practice. The movements in the forms are patterned after the spirit of various animals in combat, including the Dragon, Tiger, Monkey, Horse, Chicken, Hawk, Snake, Bear, Eagle and Swallow. The Five Element based systems have five basic forms: Splitting, Drilling, Crushing Pounding and Crossing; these Five Elements form the foundation of the Art. The basic energies of the Five Elements are then expanded into Twelve Animal forms which include variations of the animal forms found in the Ten Animal styles as well as two additional animals, the Tai (a mythical bird) and the Tuo (a type of water skimming insect). Training in all systems centers on repetitive practice of single movements that are later combined into more complicated linked forms. The direction of movement in Xing Yi forms is predominately linear. Practitioners walk through the forms coordinating the motions of their entire bodies into one focused now. The hands, feet and torso all arrive together and the nose, lead hand and lead foot are aligned along the same vertical axis (San Jian Xiang Jiao). The arms are held in front of the body and the practitioner lines up his or her centerline with the opponent's centerline. A familiar adage of Xing Yi Quan is that "the hands do not leave the [area of] the heart and the elbows do not leave the ribs." There are few kicks in the style and the techniques are predominately percussive in nature. Great emphasis is 'placed upon the ability to generate power with the whole body and focus it into one pulse which is released in a sudden burst. The techniques of Xing Yi Quan are characteristically aggressive in nature and the Xin Yi Quan fighter prefers to move into the opponent with a decisive strike at the earliest opportunity. The style prizes economy of motion and the concept of simultaneous attack and defense. As the name implies, the form or shape of the movements is only a physical manifestation of one's internal state [intent]. A fundamental principle underlying all styles of Xing Yi Quan is that the mind controls and leads the movements of the body. Training in He Nan (Ten Animal) Xin Yi Liu He Quan includes basic movements designed to condition and develop the striking ability of the Seven Stars [the head, shoulders, elbows, hands, hips, knees and feet]. From here, the student will progress to learning the basic animal forms. Basic form practice consists of repeating single movements while walking forward in various straight-line patterns. Later, the single movements are combined into linked forms. The techniques are relatively simple and straightforward and rely on the ability to generate force with almost any part of the body (the Seven Stars). Also included at more advanced levels are weapons forms (including the straight sword, staff and spear). The Five Element based styles of Xing Yi Quan (Shan Xi and He Bei styles) traditionally begin training with stance keeping, the holding of static postures for prolonged periods of time (Zhan Zhuang). The most fundamental posture is called San Ti(Three bodies)or San Cai (Three Powers referring to heaven, earth and man). It is from this posture that all of the subsequent movements in the style are created, and most teachers place great emphasis upon its practice. After stance training, the student begins to learn the Five Element Fists (Wu Xing Quan). These are the basic movements of the Art and express all the possible combinations of motion which produce martial power (including energy which moves downward upward, forward, outward and inward). After a certain level of proficiency is acquired in the practice of the Five Element Fists, the student goes on to learn the twelve Animal and linked forms. The twelve Animal forms are variations of the energies of the Five Elements expressed through the format of the spirit of animals in combat. There are several two-person combat forms that teach the student the correct methods of attack and defense and the applications of the techniques practiced in the solo forms. Five Element based styles also include weapons training. He Nan Xin Yi Liu He Quan(Ten Animal Xing Yi Quan) is characterized by powerful swinging movements and the ability to strike effectively with every part of the body. Walking forward while coordinating the movements of the arms generates the power of the body. There is also emphasis placed upon conditioning the body to receive strikes. This system is very powerful and aggressive in nature and the movements are simple and straightforward. He Bei Xing Yi Quan is based on the practice of the Five Element Fists and emphasizes Large and extended postures, strict and precise movements and powerful palm and fist strikes. The techniques of He Bei Xing Yi Quan are akin to those of the Ten Animal styles in that they are aggressive and straightforward. The forms of Shan Xi Xing Yi Quan are very similar to those of He Bei Xing Yi Quan but the movements are smaller, with the arms held closer to the body. The footwork is light and agile and the style emphasizes a relatively "softer" approach to applying technique. A greater emphasis is placed upon evasiveness than in the other styles and techniques are to be applied without clashing with the opponent’s force. The Martial Applications of XING YI QUAN Xing Yi Quan is the oldest of the 'internal' martial arts, and the only internal art proven effective on the battlefield. Based on the movements of the spear, the strategies and techniques of Xing Yi Quan are designed to subdue an opponent in the shortest possible amount of time (as prolonged exchanges were not conducive to survival in mass battle situations). The basic fighting strategy of Xing Yi Quan dictates an aggressive "take no prisoners" attitude, with the goal of incapacitating an opponent as quickly as possible. There are no flashy or overly complicated techniques; the art is a study in practical efficiency. The fact that Xing Yi Quan fighters have been among the small percentage of the most elite for the past four hundred years in China lends credibility to the Art's efficacy in training, strategy and application. STRATEGY AND TECHNIQUE The underlying strategy of Xing Yi Quan is based around ending a martial confrontation in the most expedient manner possible (usually, while inflicting the maximum amount of damage to the opponent). It is not so much a system of self-defense as aggressive offense. The founder of the Art, Ji Ji Ke (Ji Long Feng), was a famous warrior, and his warrior's mentality carried over into the boxing style he created. The "self-defense mentality" is one of escaping from a violent encounter unharmed. The 'warrior' mentality is one of taking out the opponent as quickly and efficiently as possible. Although, to a certain extent either of the above strategies can be applied to similar techniques, Xing Yi Quan's techniques were developed with the latter strategy in mind. Since the principles of this Art were gleaned from battlefield experience, and because the Art was designed to be applied against a potentially armed and armored opponent, it favored direct, incapacitating techniques which would quickly end the encounter. Striking precise vital points (often protected by armor), complicated leverage techniques, prolonged grappling encounters and the use of force against force were all impractical under the above mentioned battlefield conditions. Continuous, vicious attacks with shocking strikes and quick debilitating takedowns were the techniques of choice. The powerful 'shocking' strikes of Xing Yi Quan will damage and disorient the opponent no matter where they connect. These blows are generally not aimed at specific 'vital points,' but rather through the enemy's center of mass; this insures maximum shock and transfer of energy into the opponent. Xing Yi Quan grappling techniques involve rapid, bone jarring takedowns. The lifts and hip techniques of the wrestling arts are not commonly found in the Xing Yi Quan arsenal. From the point of view of the warrior on the battlefield, the longer he is engaged in a grappling encounter, the longer he is exposed and vulnerable to attack from a third party. Xing Yi Quan techniques are based on continuous attack, or simultaneous attack and defense if the opponent manages to launch an attack first. Techniques which block first and then counterattack with a 'one-two' timing are not emphasized. The Art also contains a set of techniques that allow the Xing Yi fighter to attack the opponent even as he retreats. These techniques are introduced in the "Jin Tui Lian Huan" (Advanced Retreat Linked Form). ELEMENTS AND ANIMALS Based on the energies of the Five Element Fists, each of the Twelve Animal Forms contain a variation in strategy and technique based on the specific animal's intrinsic nature in combat. For example, although the Tiger Form and the Monkey Form are both variations of Pi Quan (Splitting Fist), their strategies and techniques manifest differently, changing in accordance with the nature of the animal they represent. The splitting energy of the Tiger Form has the fighter advance boldly and strike the opponent ferociously with the power of the whole body behind both palms, like a tiger leaping on its prey. In contrast, the splitting energy of the Monkey Form is utilized as a series of rapid fire whipping palm strikes which sting the opponent from various angles, like a clever monkey which avoids direct confrontation while striking without warning from unexpected angles. Although the Xing Yi Quan fighter seeks to master the strategies and techniques of all twelve animals, he or she will, naturally gravitate toward specialization in a few of the animal styles most suited to personal temperament and physique. For example, the smaller, more agile fighter will naturally tend to specialize in the strategies and techniques of the Monkey, Swallow or Chicken Forms. The larger, stronger fighter will tend toward specializing in the strategies and techniques of the Tiger, Hawk or Bear Forms. It is also important to note that because it is the flavor of the animal's intent and not their particular movements which is assimilated into the forms, the movements of the Five Element Fists and Twelve Animal Forms can all be done with the intent of a single animal. SPECIFICS Finally, let's look at the strategies and techniques of Xing Yi Quan as applied to specific situations. If an opponent closes the distance with a committed attack (a committed punch, kick, push, tackle...), the basic aggressive nature of Xing Yi Quan's strategy prefers a simultaneous defense and counterattack. Ideally, at the point in time the opponent expects to connect with his own technique, he finds his attack neutralized and in the same instant feels the pain of the counterattack. Once the opponent is stunned, the Xing Yi Quan fighter follows up relentlessly until the opponent is defeated. In a 'hands up' fight, the Xing Yi Quan fighter prefers to attack first, thereby drawing the opponent into reacting. Using the opponent's reaction to his own advantage, the Xing Yi Quan fighter continues pressing the attack, never allowing the opponent time to regroup. In standing grappling situations, the Xing Yi Quan fighter seeks to avoid clinching and wrestling for an advantageous position; holds are preempted or broken by 'shocking’ the opponent from close range with one of the 'Seven Stars' (head, shoulder, elbow, hand, hip, knee and foot), thus giving the Xing Yi Quan fighter the advantage and opportunity to follow up, and, as usual, he continues to press the attack. The overall flow of the typical Xing Yi Quan technique generally follows the pattern of first making a physical connection with the opponent, then immediately (or simultaneously) setting up a shocking strike and ending the fight with finishing strikes and/or a fast and hard takedown. Although the Art has few ground grappling techniques per se, it does include a set of techniques for defending oneself from the ground if taken down by an opponent. These techniques are known as the 'Ground Dragon' method. CONCLUSION The aggressive nature of Xing Yi Quan can be summed up in the key words of the style: Brave, Fierce, Sudden, Wicked, Quick, Violent, First and Sharp. The study of its strategies and techniques provides a fascinating view of the mindset of the warriors of old. In the modern world, Xing Yi Quan training, besides conferring excellent health benefits, provides a practical, no-nonsense approach to cultivating the attitudes and physicality necessary for real fighting ability."

"Pa Kua Chang is a Chinese Martial Art thought to have been created in the middle of the 19th century by Tung Hai Ch'uan. It is characterised by complex palm turning, evasive footwork, walking the circle exercises, a circular nature, Taoist philosophy, 'internal emphasis' and excellent tactics and strategy. It also happens to be a part of the 'nei ja'- a term describing all the internal martial arts, or Taoist chi practices as one family. Pa Kua Chang is also a byword for adaptability as any and all means are used in defence inc. open hands, elbows,shoulders, arms, hips, knees, legs, feet, and the head plus throwing and joint-locking. This is why it is said that Pa Kua 'uses movement as its foundation and transformation as its principle'. In action then it is described as 'a tornado hitting a brick wall' due to its footwork and explosive power. It is these factors which separate it from the all pervasive Shaolin based martial arts. Indeed Pa Kua Chang is also distinctive in that it offers a comprehensive analysis of the five traditional branches of the martial arts, Health, Healing, Peak Performance, Self-defence and Spirituality. Meaning: Pa kua chang is Mandarin Chinese for 'Eight Diagram' Palm. Since there are three major systems for translating the language into there are also three correspondingly different ways for spelling and pronounciation. Pa kua chang is from the Wade-Giles option whereas ba gua zhang is from the Pinyin system and ba gua jang is from the Yale system. Wade-Giles is the most popular which is why I have used it although ba gua jing is probably the closest in pronounciation. Origins - Tung Hai Ch'uan supposedly chose the name as he wanted to connect the theory of his fighting art to the theory of the pa kua, or eight trigrams of the 'I Ching' , a philosophical book which treats life and the universe as being within a continuous state of motion governed by the Tao (see Taoism for an explanation). It has survived for over 150 years as it has proved to be highly adaptable and extremely skillful. It has variously been described as 'a martial art to defeat other martial artists', a 'guerilla' martial art, a more active light-exercise alternative to Tai Chi and a martial art based on natural principles. It was deemed to be so good that Yin Fu, Tung's most able student, was allowed to escort the dowager princess out of Beijing during the Boxer Rebellion of 1900. This was a great honour and proof of its capability as traditionally only the best martial artist in China was allowed to escort her. More recently Chinese Communist leader Mao Tse Tung was noted for having a well trusted bodyguard who was a 'pa kua' man. There are four popular styles and numerous minor ones. They are from the Yin Fu, the Cheng Ting Hua, the Liang Zhenfu and the Ma Wei Chi lineages. Each person was taught by Tung Hai Chuan. Whilst differences exist between them due to the ability of the founders and their students they all essentially conform to the same basic principles.

Yes I agree with some of your points but also disagree in alot of regards. With the intimate involvement of Kung Fu in Chinese culture, one fact becomes extreme important. Kung Fu, like Chinese culture, is over three thousand years old. During those three thousand years every possible aspect of martial theory and technique has veen exposed, developed, and practised. This long history of practical development has made Kung Fu the most complete system of martial arts in existence. The long history of Kung Fu is a great asset since those thousands of years have seen a continual growth in theory and techniue. To reject three thousand years of experience is to reject everything of proven value.

"A student may someday be called upon to teach his particular style, which he must honor by teaching what he has learned to be traditional aspects of his style. Without this loyalty, a style will undergo as many changes as there are instructrs; in time the establishment forms which have been proven effective and which have identified the style through the ages will dissapear. The death of the style will surely come about if this hapens. There is always room for innovation, but innovation must occur within the context of an etablished tradition" Yang Jwing-Ming -Shaolin Long Fist

You can't prove your point man, you still don't see what I'm saying. I'm saying any technique can work in the right situation. It's just a basic fact man! If you don't see the kick coming and it catches you in the chin, you're on the freakin floor. Bottomline. You put too much emphasis on style and not enough on individuals. There are no such thing as superior styles. That crap is for egos. Just because something doesn't LOOK useful doesnt mean it isn't. You gotta remember, back in the 50's people thought that even Karate looked like a dance. Then in the 60's people said Kung Fu(TRADITIONAL KUNG FU) was flowery and ineffective. Soft boned and all of that.

there's many good styles that would do what you're looking for. That said, I would discourage you from taking up Thai boxing because they do a lot of body conditioning that is effective but painful and probably shortens your life ... so much for self-defence, eh? You should also avoid any style that wants you to break wood. It's stupid, adds almost nothing to your self-defence skills, and will almost definitely give you arthritis in later life. As for the internal styles (xingyi, bagua, etc.), I'll let you in on a little secret. Most people will tell you that they're good, but they are slower to develop than some others. Fact of the matter is, the internal styles achieve their results by developing a kind of energy. In other words, if you take up xingyi, bagua or (martial) taiji -- the latter being very hard to find -- you'll probably find that you develop useful skills, not to mention better health and general well being.

you know ****.You're starting to piss me off with your lack of knowledge. What are you 12? Seriously where did you get this idea? Have you actually fought or trained with traditional Kung Fu experts? I am sick of people saying my style is better/superior etc. People like you give the martial arts a bad name. Remember The basics are the most important Five kicks can make you unbeatable. Get a clue man, the problem is internal. And it is not the style but the practisioner that determines the winner. All styles have two things in common. "Attack" and "defend". That is what makes all styles equal. It will always ultimately come down to the fighters and to circumstances during the fight. Think they're Chin Na wouldn't hurt? Please. Train in what you believe in and go as far with it as you can. But I guarantee you. Lots of people disagree with me, I know that. Half of the time is because they're trying to advance they're own agenda. Me? I have no agenda. Nor do I really care. I'm here in Virgina, I've been in fights, I've used martial arts, traditional at that. Bruce did believe certain techniques were better for some than others, for individuals man. He never said this technique won't work for anyone. But like TKD wouldn't necessarily be a good art for a big slow dude, Wing Chun would suck for a guy with no arms, Mantis would suck for a guy with asthma etc etc etc. Don't tell me my interpretation is wrong, it isn't wrong you just haven't reached the point where you can understand it yet. It's a very simple concept. What styles do you train? FOr how long? Quit trying to school me son because it's not gonna happen. Go lose another arguement about bjj. Become Microsft certified, make some kool aid. Anything.

http://www.hungkuen.org.uk/gungfu-stylesA-L.htm "The following pages listing the gung fu styles are far from complete and still under development. Below you will find a list of Chinese Martial Art styles. Please bare in mind this is by no means a complete list of all Gung fu styles. Styles A - L Styles M - Z BAK MEI- WHITE EYEBROW BAJIQUAN (Baat Gihk Kuen) - EIGHT ULTIMATE FIST BAGUAZHANG (Pakua Chang)-EIGHT TRIAGRAMS PALM - FU SHI BAQUAZHANG - JUI LONG BAGUAZHANG - 9 DRAGON BAGUAZHANG - LONG XING BAGUAZHANG - DRAGON SHAPE BAGUAZHANG - SHENG MEN BAGUAZHANG - BREAKABEL GATE BAGUAZHANG - WU DANG BAGUAZHANG - YIN-YANG BAGUAZHANG - YI SHI BAGUAZHANG BAQUAN (Baat Kyuhn) - EIGHT FIST BA SI QUAN (Baat Sin Kyuhn) - EIGHT IMPORTANT FIST BAMENQUAN (Baat Muhn Kyuhn) - EIGHT GATES FIST CHOY GA (Cai Jia) - CHOY FAMILY CHOY LI FUT (Choy Leih Faht) (Choy Lee Fut) CHAQUAN (Chah Kyuhn) - CHA FIST TAIJIQUAN - GREAT ULTIMATE FIST - CHEN TAIJIQUAN - (Chen Taai Gihk Kyuhn) - HAO TAIJIQUAN - LI SHI TAIJIQUAN - LI FAMILY GREAT ULTIMATE FIST - SUN TAIJIQUAN - WU DANG TAIJIQUAN - WU TAIJIQUAN - YANG TAIJIQUAN CHANG QUAN (Cheuhng Kyuhn) (Chang Chuan) - LONG FIsT TANG LANG QUAN (Tohng Lohng Kyuhn) - PRAYING MANTIS FIST - QI XING TANG LANG QUAN-SEVEN STAR PARAYING MANTIS- - LIU HE TANG LANG QUAN - SIX COMBINATIONS PRAYING MANTIS FIST- - MEI HUA TANG LANG QUAN - PLUM BLOSSOM PRAYING MANTIS FIST- QIN NA (Chi Na) - SEIZING AND CAPTURING CHU GAR (Chyu Ga) - CHU FAMILY CHUO JIAO - STABBING FOOT DAI SING DAI SING PEK GWA - GREAT SAGE CHOPPING AND RAISING GOUQUAN - DOG FIST DITANG (Deih Tong) - GROUND LYING DUANQUAN - SHORT RANGE FIST FANZI QUAN(Faan Ji Kyuhn) - TUMBLING BOXING FAN ZHI QUAN (Faan Ji Kyuhn) - REVERSE SON FIST FUT GAR (Faht Ga Kyuhn) - BUDHA FAMILY FIST FO HAN QUAN (Faht Hon Kyuhn) - BUDDHA FIST HU HE PAI ( Fu Hook Paai) - TIGER AND CRANE STYLE FU JIA QUAN - FU FAMILY FIST HU QUAN (Fu Kyuhn) - TIGER FIST HOP GAR Hop Gar has its roots in the Tibetan system and originated from the Zen monk Gum Ngau. He was a Shaolin stylist who studied Kung Fu from a Tibetan Lama in the village of Chin Hoi. He used his Kung Fu to help the weak and oppressed and became known as 'Dai Hap' which means Great Hero. On returning to Heng Wan monastery in Canton, he taught the monks Kung Fu. His most famous student was Wong Yan Lum, who after leaving the monastery, opened a Kung Fu School, naming his style 'Hap Gar Kune' (Hero Family Style) after his teacher. Websites : HAN XING (Hon Sihng) - STRONG WINNING HE QUAN -Crane Boxing - BAI HE (Baahk Hok) - WHITE CRANE - FEI HE (Fei Hok) - FLYING CRANE - MING HE - CRYING CRANE - SHI HE - HUNGRY CRANE - ZHAN HE - TREMBELING CRANE - ZHONG HE - JUMPING CRANE HUNG GAR (Hung Kuen) - HUNG FAMILY HONG MEN QUAN - VAST FIST HONG QUAN - RED FIST HOU QUAN - MONKEY FIST XINGYI QUAN (Hsing-yi Kyuhn) - SHAPE AND MIND FIST HUA QUAN - BRILLIANT FIST HU BAO QUAN - TIGER AND LEOAPARD FIST HU DIE QUAN - BUTTERFLY FIST HUNG FUT (Huhng Faht) HU XING BAQUA QUAN - TIGER EIGHT TRIAGRAM FIST HYUN KYUHN ZUI QUAN (Jeui Kyuhn) - DRUNKEN FIST JIN QUAN - GOLD FIST JIN SHIN QUAN - GOLDEN LION FIST ZHU JIA (Jyu Ga) - ZHU FAMILY LAN SHOU MEN (Laahn Sou Muhn) - OBSTRUCTING HAND GATE LAMA PAI LAU GAR (Lauh Ga) - LAU FAMILY LI GAR (Leih Ga) - LI FAMILY LIU HE (Luhk Hahp) - SIX COMBINATIONS LONG XING QUAN (Luhng Yihng Kyuhn) - DRAGON SHAPE FIST LUOHAN QUAN - ARHAT BOXING BAK MEI- WHITE EYEBROW BAJIQUAN (Baat Gihk Kuen) - EIGHT ULTIMATE FIST BAGUAZHANG (Pakua Chang)-EIGHT TRIAGRAMS PALM - FU SHI BAQUAZHANG - JUI LONG BAGUAZHANG - 9 DRAGON BAGUAZHANG - LONG XING BAGUAZHANG - DRAGON SHAPE BAGUAZHANG - SHENG MEN BAGUAZHANG - BREAKABEL GATE BAGUAZHANG - WU DANG BAGUAZHANG - YIN-YANG BAGUAZHANG - YI SHI BAGUAZHANG BAQUAN (Baat Kyuhn) - EIGHT FIST BA SI QUAN (Baat Sin Kyuhn) - EIGHT IMPORTANT FIST BAMENQUAN (Baat Muhn Kyuhn) - EIGHT GATES FIST CHOY GA (Cai Jia) - CHOY FAMILY CHOY LI FUT (Choy Leih Faht) (Choy Lee Fut) CHAQUAN (Chah Kyuhn) - CHA FIST TAIJIQUAN - GREAT ULTIMATE FIST - CHEN TAIJIQUAN - (Chen Taai Gihk Kyuhn) - HAO TAIJIQUAN - LI SHI TAIJIQUAN - LI FAMILY GREAT ULTIMATE FIST - SUN TAIJIQUAN - WU DANG TAIJIQUAN - WU TAIJIQUAN - YANG TAIJIQUAN CHANG QUAN (Cheuhng Kyuhn) (Chang Chuan) - LONG FIsT TANG LANG QUAN (Tohng Lohng Kyuhn) - PRAYING MANTIS FIST - QI XING TANG LANG QUAN-SEVEN STAR PARAYING MANTIS- - LIU HE TANG LANG QUAN - SIX COMBINATIONS PRAYING MANTIS FIST- - MEI HUA TANG LANG QUAN - PLUM BLOSSOM PRAYING MANTIS FIST- QIN NA (Chi Na) - SEIZING AND CAPTURING CHU GAR (Chyu Ga) - CHU FAMILY CHUO JIAO - STABBING FOOT DAI SING DAI SING PEK GWA - GREAT SAGE CHOPPING AND RAISING GOUQUAN - DOG FIST DITANG (Deih Tong) - GROUND LYING DUANQUAN - SHORT RANGE FIST FANZI QUAN(Faan Ji Kyuhn) - TUMBLING BOXING FAN ZHI QUAN (Faan Ji Kyuhn) - REVERSE SON FIST FUT GAR (Faht Ga Kyuhn) - BUDHA FAMILY FIST FO HAN QUAN (Faht Hon Kyuhn) - BUDDHA FIST HU HE PAI ( Fu Hook Paai) - TIGER AND CRANE STYLE FU JIA QUAN - FU FAMILY FIST HU QUAN (Fu Kyuhn) - TIGER FIST HOP GAR Hop Gar has its roots in the Tibetan system and originated from the Zen monk Gum Ngau. He was a Shaolin stylist who studied Kung Fu from a Tibetan Lama in the village of Chin Hoi. He used his Kung Fu to help the weak and oppressed and became known as 'Dai Hap' which means Great Hero. On returning to Heng Wan monastery in Canton, he taught the monks Kung Fu. His most famous student was Wong Yan Lum, who after leaving the monastery, opened a Kung Fu School, naming his style 'Hap Gar Kune' (Hero Family Style) after his teacher. Websites : HAN XING (Hon Sihng) - STRONG WINNING HE QUAN -Crane Boxing - BAI HE (Baahk Hok) - WHITE CRANE - FEI HE (Fei Hok) - FLYING CRANE - MING HE - CRYING CRANE - SHI HE - HUNGRY CRANE - ZHAN HE - TREMBELING CRANE - ZHONG HE - JUMPING CRANE HUNG GAR (Hung Kuen) - HUNG FAMILY HONG MEN QUAN - VAST FIST HONG QUAN - RED FIST HOU QUAN - MONKEY FIST XINGYI QUAN (Hsing-yi Kyuhn) - SHAPE AND MIND FIST HUA QUAN - BRILLIANT FIST HU BAO QUAN - TIGER AND LEOAPARD FIST HU DIE QUAN - BUTTERFLY FIST HUNG FUT (Huhng Faht) HU XING BAQUA QUAN - TIGER EIGHT TRIAGRAM FIST HYUN KYUHN ZUI QUAN (Jeui Kyuhn) - DRUNKEN FIST JIN QUAN - GOLD FIST JIN SHIN QUAN - GOLDEN LION FIST ZHU JIA (Jyu Ga) - ZHU FAMILY LAN SHOU MEN (Laahn Sou Muhn) - OBSTRUCTING HAND GATE LAMA PAI LAU GAR (Lauh Ga) - LAU FAMILY LI GAR (Leih Ga) - LI FAMILY LIU HE (Luhk Hahp) - SIX COMBINATIONS LONG XING QUAN (Luhng Yihng Kyuhn) - DRAGON SHAPE FIST LUOHAN QUAN - ARHAT BOXING"

They are awesome movies and these guys have incredible skill and fighting ability (well most not all). If someone looks good on a movie it means they have good form. They aren't faking, they have really refined technique in alot of cases. Those guys trained more than 8 hours a day. I recently started to lget into Lo Meng in films (the Frog Venom) and read some stuff on him "Lo Meng (he played the Toad in Five Deadly Venoms) is a lifelong dedicated student of the mantis fist. Lo Meng has an incredible physique and is a true powerhouse. He began studying at the age of 13, and continues to practice the style today. The Mantis style focuses on the strength of the arms, gathering strength from the shoulder sockets straight down to the hands, using the whole body to help the power of the arms- and it is this technique that you almost always see Lo Meng using in his fight sequences. Rarely does he use weapons- he doesn't need them!"

I found this article on http://infinite.org/libary/pages/SBMAC2.1-18.html "Chu Gar Gao (Chu family religion) is a way of boxing developed with one purpose in mind: destroying the enemy. Understand that Chu Gar was created by the Ming Emperor's family (Chu Fook To) to serve the Ming Dynasty at a time when the Ching (Northern Manchurians) had invaded and taken control (1644 AD). Restore the Ming; Overthrow the Ching, was the primary purpose of the Chu Gar Style and the slogan of the day. It was the ruthlessness, bloodshed and violence of the Manchu rulers as they hunted down and destroyed revolutionaries of the Ming dynasty (Chu family) that caused Chu Gar to develop into a direct, deadly military fighting style---destroy the enemy before being destroyed. Chu Fook To, of the Ming imperial court retreated to the sanctuary of the Northern Shaolin monastery and in pursuit the Ching court burned Songshan Shaolin forcing Chu and the Ming loyalists to flee southward where they settled at Fukien Shaolin with Chu Fook To becoming abbot and changing his name to "Tung Sim" (anguish) due to his deep anguish and hatred for the Ching's reign of terror and suffering. It was during this time that the Chu family boxing style was nicknamed "Southern Praying Mantis" in order to confuse the style with the Northern Shandong Mantis styles and avoid the persecution of the Ching soldiers. The Chu family and Ming Loyalists who fled from the north southward became known as the Hakka (Ke-ren or guest people) in South China and the style was kept a Hakka secret as it passed generation upon generation until 1949 when Lau Sui, the Grandmaster who brought Hakka praying mantis to Hong Kong taught the first Non-Hakka generation (although this non-Hakka named Yi Sui became his son-in-law). From the time of Chu Fook To, the Chu family boxing passed to Lam Pok Koon who taught Chu Nam Chea, who then settled in Kwantung province. At this time the "South Mantis" followers were enough to form a large army and became recognized as a "para religious sect" or Chu Gar Gao. Others such as Wong Chun So, Wong Wo Wing and Wong Wo Chek continued to propagate Chu Gar down to Lau Choi Koon who during the Tai Ping (boxer) rebellion in the early 1900's taught the militiamen how to fight. Still others such as Yuen Chun, Kwai Chi Bong, Hon Loy Chung, Lee Mok Long carried the style to the present with great distinctions. The style as it is known today in the USA is primarily due to the brothers Lau Sui and Lau Fu Yuen who settled in Hong Kong in 1915. Lau Sui opened the style in 1949 in Hong Kong when his five disciples each separated and created three separate streams within the style.. Chu Kwong Wha was Hakka, Chu Yu Hing was Hakka, Lum Wha was Hakka, Wong Hong Kwong was Hakka and Yi Sui who married Lau Sui's daughter became the first Non-Hakka to learn the system of Chu Gar Gao. After Lau Sui's death, his son-in-law, Yi Sui created the second stream known as Zhao Gar, named after Zhao An Nam who he proclaimed was the first ancestor of the style. Kwong Sai Jook Lum Southern Mantis became a third door of the style when a student of Lau Sui in Hong Kong wanted to make a movie in which the South Mantis would be defeated. When Lau Sui would not approve, the student broke away to create the Kwangsai Jook Lum stream of the style. Thus today, we know of three Southern mantis styles with one origin: Chu Gar, the original, Zhao Gar created by Yi Sui, and Kwong Sai Jook Lum created by Lau Sui's student. I began to learn the Chu Gar style in 1953 from Chu Yu Hing's top disciple, Dong Yet Long, who was a cook at a local school. I was only a school boy then and when I approached Master Dong, he at once refused to teach, denying any knowledge of the art. However, through persistence and after approaching him again with my Mother by my side and making offerings of chicken, pork and wine I was finally accepted and introduced to Chu Yu Hing. Under his tutelage for 6 or 7 years the learning was slow but precise and it was at this time Choi Gam Man, a student of Chu Yu Hing taught me Yang's Tai Chi. In 1959, along with my family I moved to the USA and it wasn't until 2 years later that I returned to Hong Kong to see Master Dong Yet Long and the Chu Gar family. During that time I trained with Yi Sui, Chu Yu Hing and Dong Yet Long and after six months resumed to the USA The next year (1962). I returned to Hong Kong and saw all the Chu Gar family but Yi Sui spending several months there. It wasn't for three years that I would return again to see everyone (except Wong Hong Kwong who had passed away). In that year (1965) Dong Yet Long gave a big banquet and Lum Wha, Yi Sui and Chu Yu Hing were all in attendance. During the banquet Yi Sui invited me to visit him the next day and I did so carrying gifts of herbs and teas. In exchange Yi Sui passed some Chu Gar sets on to me as a gift. His student Ho Ju Yuan was still around at that time and our friendships increased. In 1970 Master Dong Yet Long conferred on me the title of Chief Instructor with certificate and Chu Yu Hing granted the title of Instructor with Certificate in 1971. During the 1970's I returned several times to visit my old teachers, classmates and friends and during this period I began to teach Chu Gar in the USA to a few selected students. In 1975 I stopped teaching the style due to the increased interest in the style and because I couldn't teach the style to just anyone based on the fact that the style is primarily focused on fighting. The Chu Gar style is a complete system and is very dangerous. You learn to fight in a short time of training. It is an internal style capable of delivering internal force similar to a bent spring that has explosive force when released. Although recognized as an in fighting style with the ability to explode power in any direction from short distances, the system's method also extends the arms longer than most northern styles by constantly rounding the back and stretching the arms, shoulders and rib cage also by shifting body angles for extension. Hence, the ability to use explosive force at short and longer than usual distances. Basic training of this style consists of following the guiding principles such as sink, float, spit and swallow; (hunch back) rounding the back like a woven rice strainer; legs must have the ability to leap like a frog and maneuver like a tiger; no T stance and no 8 stance; punch straight from the center line and standing beggar style with open hands. The most important aspect of training is known as two man feeding. Feeding hands is the constant teaching of feeling and sensitivity, yielding and redirecting incoming power with mantis hand methods and simultaneously striking back with explosive force. Feeding hands is known as 'push hands' in Tai Chi but follows different patterns in Chu Gar with a different emphasis. Feeding hands employs circular movement which appears soft and is generated from the dantien as a pent up spring force all the sudden released with devastating explosive power with impact hard as iron. When feeding hands the emphasis is to never lose contact of the opponent; as long as you can feel the enemy you can control him; this is known as making a bridge. Feeding hands trains one to become extremely fast and alive, that is, able to react to the enemy's power. The majority of styles don't have this 'live power' and their power is dead power, that is, once an attack is launched there is no ability to change until completely executed or no ability to react to the enemy's immediate counter power. This feeding hands includes lower limbs as well. Auxiliary training in the style contains rolling iron bars along the arm 'bridges', using the iron rings along the forearms, training finger strength by special methods of throwing and grabbing sandbags, and use of a medicine ball to strengthen the whole body. Chu Gar is an internal style. It follows internal principles and it borrows the enemies strength and uses it against them. The fist is also different and is known as "Fen An" or phoenix eye. This allows maneuverability in very quick action. It might be referred to as "acupuncture boxing" due to the fact that the single index knuckle is used to strike vital acupuncture centers in rapid succession without pulling back to a chambered position. Coupled with the internal spring power the mantis strike becomes deadly. Compare a normal fist strike to a mantis fist strike. A normal fist has a large surface area and when it strikes the rib cage for example it does great damage to the outside of the body, bruising the muscles and tendons on the outside, however, the mantis fist used with the internal explosive force created during feeding hands exercises, goes between the ribs in a focused way doing damage to the outside of the body but also leaving the internal organs bruised and damaged Internally. A practical example of this difference can be seen when striking a heavy cardboard box. Set the box on a table and strike it with a normal closed fist and watch the result. Then strike it with the mantis fist or with a single finger penetration. The latter is focused and creates a single small hole. Couple this strike with the internal spring force and knowledge of acupuncture and Chu Gar becomes deadly. Learning the Chu Gar style is like learning to drive a car. You learn how to steer, how to brake, how to turn, how to accelerate, etc. and in the beginning each is a task which needs concentration. But after a while, you perform all the operations of driving without conscious effort. So it is with learning kungfu. You learn the basic footwork of the style, the basic hand technique, the forms, the feeding hands, etc. until you perform the movements shifting weight side to side, forward and backward while employing the lightning fast hands of catching, holding, clasping, pressing, spearing, flicking, slicing, chopping, hooking, poking and exploding fingers without conscious effort. Chu Gar fights from an upright position, never too low to impair response and speed. Using the feeling hands of the mantis, the Chu Gar boxer closes the gap, crosses the bridge, feels his enemies power, yields, then with the weight of the whole body and the explosive power of internal energy concentrated into one small area destroys the enemy within one exchange that doesn't stop until blood is drawn. Practicing Chu Gar makes one aggressive in nature. And the constant rubbing, feeling, and turning of power acquired during feeding hands gives one confidence to defeat the enemy. Because of this I do not teach the Chu Gar openly today. Even when teaching, there are many techniques which are taught only to disciples within the family. Chu Gar is a lost art. Few Masters remain and they have no interest to publicly teach this style. It is for this reason that I have considered to preserve and teach the basics of this rare military art through books and video tape, however, I have come to no satisfactory conclusion to do so. As a member of the Chen's family of Chenjiagou village, I have mastered Chen style Taijiquan and today teach Chen's Taiji in the San Francisco Bay area. Having Chu Gar as a foundation was of great benefit, but in today's society we do not need to concentrate on fighting or overthrowing the officials. Chen's Taiji is also a highly effective and deadly combat art, but it is much more. It is a way of life teaching harmony, relaxation and tranquility. A way of adapting to life's complexities."

I guess it depends on the systems and if you can keep them seperate. For example if you're learning systems like Hung ga and Dragon, very different in body postures theories,and stances. When you start trying to mix them then you take away from the essence of it style or cant keep them seperate. hung ga and Choy Li Fut could work very well together, remember Jow ga has elements of both already. i think that practicing more than 1 style at the same time can be right as well as wrong, it depends on what you consider. besides this open minded statement, I would choose the second choice, considering it wrong because: 1) nowadays most of people can't practice martial arts 10 hours a day. 2) if ones has a little quantity of time to practice, how can they practice 2 or 3 different martial arts? how can they "breath" the principles contained within them (sometimes very different) without confusion? movements can be learnt, but different principles of complete martial arts cannot be used at the same time. 3)afterall, in a hypothetic fighting situation, your kung fu has to come out from you... what will come out if you practice 2 or 3 styles... a mix? a good mix? or a bad one? 4) why to practice more than 1 style? if you practice a complete style (as most of them are!) you don't need to practice two style, in one style you can find whatever you need for your life and beyond! It's just our mind which pushes us to practice more than 1 style, because our mind is always "thirsty": it needs to learn new things again and again, never satisfied of what it already has got...don't forget that a practicer can be invincible with just one style... it doesn't depend on movements, but on how we are able to get into a style. [ This Message was edited by: ChangWuJi on 2001-11-03 21:10 ]

Interesting subject because recently I read a message by a certain poster on a different message board which says Bruce Lee is still alive. I am still pondering whether this guy really believes in what he's saying. Here I'll post it for fun: "Bruce Lee, no doubt. Jackie Chan's good, but Bruce Lee would take him down, no question. Even Jet Li is no comparison. I've seen a tournament when Jackie was about, say, 19 I think, where his opponent was Jet Li. Jackie won. Jackie Chan is more of a traditional guy, whereas Jet Li is one speedy guy. Sure, Jackie Chan studied a lot of styles, but Bruce Lee MADE one. How's that for originality, huh. A very effective style, at that. And you people say Bruce Lee is dead? Hell no. He's alive. All that information you guys mentioned earlier about his death and how he died, that was all crap conjured up by scientists which made his death look believable. I've seen a many documentaries on him, and they all say the same thing: he died for unknown reasons; no one knows how he really died; his wife came home one day and found him unconscious on the floor, etc. It's all bull. I honestly believe that. And has anyone here seen the footage of his funeral? They did a close-up of him in the coffin, and I swear, it looked nothing like him. And to top it all off, only the face was showing, the body was covered, and the face that was shown looked like a man-made mask. I'm serious. They put the footage of the funeral in Game of Death, check it out. If he wanted to fake his death, here's one reason why I'd think he'd do such a thing. Too many people were always coming up to him on the streets, always wanting a fight. Of course they got beat up. My theory is that he wanted to get away from all that, and just wanted peace. My friend's mom once said she saw Bruce Lee walking down the street in San Francisco, in a disguise. She said he was wearing a hat and sunglasses and baggy clothes and such, I guess he was trying to blend in and just have a pleasant walk down the street. But my friend's mom recognized him and said "Hey you're that guy in those movies." And he looked at her and said, "Don't tell anyone," and walked off. I don't think she made that up either, she knows next to nothing about him and martial arts, she wouldn't have any reason to cook up something like that. Which ties into my theory about how he just wanted to live a normal life. Which then again ties into the Jackie Chan thing. If Bruce Lee was/is alive right now, think about how good he would've/has become. You think he was damn good back then? Hah, if he was/is alive now, I bet he could take down Jackie Chan and Jet Li at the same time. I truly believe all this, and I'm pretty sure many people out there disagree with me, just please don't flame me...badly."

Depends. Some styles arts are similar while others different in nature. Some might force you to make decision which to use. The best arts are complete systems by themselves so what need for cross train? At least until you master it, which can take around 10 years depending on art. As I stated earlier different arts have different fundementals, principles, and theories. So how will you know which is right, or which to use in a fight if you're not experienced? Also styles from different countries, might oppose each other, and say my way is better and this way is wrong. While the other style might say the opposite. ALso some might teach you to strike totally differently, and might be hard and/or confusing to switch. My opinion is to crosstrain in styles from same region, if crosstrain at all.

Here is another interesting article I found that I would like to share. "My master once said, "Why you be there?" I had just taken a hit that should have missed. What he spoke was something that echoed all the other learning I had, over the years, accumulated. Not be there. A founding precept, pivotal to success in avoiding conflict in the first place, and in fighting and winning when in the midst of battle. And so simple, yet so profound. Not be there. But what does it mean? It means, if possible, don’t go where you are sure to find enemies, conflict or trouble. When trouble finds you, don’t be where the strike is. Very simple. Very hard to do. Not be there. When first we begin to learn the ancient art of self-defense, we are taught to block. That is a "first learning." Once we begin to understand how to block, we learn to deflect, redirecting the incoming strike so to cause least harm to us while opening the way for our own strike or evasive technique. Once we can deflect, we learn to slip the strike just enough to penetrate while the strike is incoming to move in and deliver our own assault. When we get better, we slip the strike and, utilizing the movement and energy of the assailant, allow their energy to be used and turned against them as we penetrate with our own counter-assault. When we get really good, the assailant’s strike becomes a strike against themselves while we "do nothing" but "not be there." Not be there. Simple, yet so profound a founding principle and a "gateway" learning to other principles, like "move to position of advantage while allowing opponent to enter position most disadvantagious to themselves." This one is harder to learn, but it is again pivotal to any successful self-defense mastery. Move to position of advantage while allowing opponent to enter position most disadvantagious to themselves. How? Time and practice against others - many others. Mastering one’s own body and its movement while simultaneously mastering a meticulous understanding of the mechanics of the human body, both static and in motion, and how that body is most easily "broken down." Hand in hand with that comes "taking opponent’s center." A beginner learns leverage techniques. A master can dismantle the body of an assailant and steal its center by simply moving his own body, never touching or being touched by the assailant, thereby allowing the "opponent to defeat themselves," yet another founding precept. As you begin to see, one principle and its understanding and application becomes dependent upon the learning and mastering of all others, each one a foundation stone upon which one’s arsenal of ability is constructed, principles that when mastered make one almost invincible to assault. And these and other principles are the common water that runs beneath and inside all the martial arts. The better you learn them, the more invincible and successful in martial conflict you become until, one day, you simply find there is no conflict...because you have truly mastered "not be there."

"The study of Martial Arts is all about setting and overcoming goals in order to improve and develop. The very first of these goals is the decision one makes to begin study. A lot of people are in the “I would love to but don’t have the time/money/opportunity/etc.” camp. Excuses are always easier than actually embarking upon an endeavour... However, those that really want to become a martial artist will eventually realise that the excuses are no longer valid and they will seek out a school. A process will probably begin where they investigate various forms of martial arts and educate themselves on the possibilities. Eventually they will take that first leap and begin their training. For this they should be highly praised; it’s a big, bold step and one that will set them on a lifelong path of self-discovery and self-development, hopefully leading on to them helping the discoveries and development of others. Then comes the next hurdle – sticking to it. A very large number of people new to the martial arts get something of a rude awakening when they discover the level of hard work and commitment that is required to do well as a martial artist. In my experience, maybe one in ten “new recruits” don’t last the first three months. Of those that do last three months, only a handful will go on to develop into committed martial artists. The path certainly isn’t for everyone, though many of us find that hard to believe! In those first three months a person with no previous training will discover just how unfit they may be, but within three months their fitness levels will increase dramatically. In those first three months a person will discover just how inflexible they are, but those three months will help them to make remarkable gains in their flexibility. The same applies for strength, co-ordination, confidence, understanding, memory. Almost all aspects of our lives are enhanced by dedicated martial arts study. At this point many people are little more than hobbyists, using the martial arts as a fun distraction, an enhancement of health and fitness and a basis for confidence regarding general self defence. This is a great achievement and should certainly be applauded. However, there are also those that realise how much more can be gained and they begin to train hard every day, thinking about every aspect of their training. It gets under their skin and into their mind and everything is thought of in the aspect of martial arts. In some ways this is a kind of obsession, but it’s a healthy obsession and it’s at this point that those people start to become martial artists, rather than people that do martial arts. A seemingly small, but actually enormous difference. For the people that survive this initial three months and find themselves inexorably on that path of being a martial artist that leads so many of us, a whole new vista of possibilities opens up. Incredible gains are made, many new skills are learned and a person slowly develops the depth and unique ‘accent’ of themselves as a martial artist. This leads us on to the titled subject of this article – that one year plateau. When a person is completely inexperienced in something, anything he or she learns is a great gain. From not knowing how to make a fist, to learning the techniques of finger and thumb placement, wrist alignment, and so on, is a large gain in knowledge achieved over a relatively short period of time. From not knowing how to kick to developing your first accurate, powerful front kick is an enormous gain, again learned fairly quickly. Inside the first year of daily hard work and diligent study a person can make quantum leaps, developing a truly impressive ability as a martial artist compared to a person with no training. So at this point, around the first year or eighteen months of training, we come across the first real challenge of a developing martial artist. The battle to overcome the ego begins. A person at this stage is often very pleased and impressed with their progress, as well they should be; they have certainly achieved an awful lot. But the ego is a dangerous thing. A good teacher should be able to recognise in a student this level of self-congratulation. That teacher should encourage the student’s motivation and drive, but they should also attempt to remind the student that the path they are on is endless and that this achievement is very small in the life of a dedicated martial artist. They should be reminded that they have barely scratched the surface. It is important to temper this first burst of ego as, in every walk of life, a great high is usually followed by a great low and this great low is that first plateau in training. The kind of great leaps and bounds of development that a beginner experiences can not, by definition, last much beyond that first year or eighteen months. Once the basics have been covered and developed, the intricacies of fine tuning, repetitive practice and internal development begin to appear. At this stage a student can begin to feel that they are not learning like they were before. They can feel that they are slowing down in their knowledge consumption, and indeed they are. This is the low that grows from that first plateau. At this point a student must realise that the path is long and they have a lot of hard work to do. A teacher should encourage the student to realise that they still have an unbelievable amount to learn and that new skills and abilities will continue to come their way. Just a little slower and with a little less revelation than they did before. But, though rarer, I don’t think the epiphanies ever end! In the same way that a lot of new students leave within the first three months because they don’t become Jet Lee straight away, a lot of students also leave after the first year or so, disillusioned with something that at first seemed like so much fun and so rewarding. A student needs to learn, and should be taught, that their development is more rewarding the longer and harder they work, and that plateaus are going to be a regular feature of their training. They should be seen as a challenge and not as something discouraging. Knowledge that these plateaus will occur is the first step to overcoming them. Of course, it’s then back to the old adage – kung fu. Hard work. The monk Choy Fook said that six years training in the martial arts is a small achievement and that ten years training is a moderate achievement. And he was talking about training full-time. Don’t let that first plateau, or any of the numerous subsequent plateaus, discourage you. Prepare for them, overcome them and move on. That’s kung fu. "

"Animals have been a symbolic and literal source of self-defense, martial arts, and combat throughout history. Martial artists have formed many impressive and dangerous styles from the movements and spirit of these creatures. Mantis, crane, even mystical creatures such as the Dragon have all been characterized in some form of movement and then fighting. One such animal is the tiger, nature's embodiment of violence and a beast of terror to the hunted. It has no qualms about fighting just as the namesake it has been developed from and the various systems of "tiger" combat match this ferocity. The tiger has been a system of combat in many cultures from the Chinese to the Islanders as in the Indonesian influence. The Shaolin style focuses on strengthening the muscles and bone for total power through. A vast array of styles have tiger influence, Karate, Pencak Silat, Kempo but the principles and spirit of the tiger has the same influence into any art it represents. The "Shaolin style" has been around at least since the 6th century and has evolved into many variations and applications depending on the Instructors approach. There have been pictures shown in healer's drawings of specific exercises with the tiger's movements as part of their routine. The tiger of today is extremely useful as self-defense beyond the beauty of the movements of the forms. Students are taught a method that sets up their whole body for performing tiger as the creature of legends. Body conditioning, forms, techniques, and weapons are all apart of the system. The tiger's tenacity sets the stage for fighting and approach to what is exactly tiger, anything that is viscous and damaging. SELF DEFENSE Self-defense is explained as a way to defend yourself in situations that are not of your choosing. This is a perfect match for this system, as it is set up to defend against any and all that enter the student's domain, which is simply their person. Groin, eyes, knees, etc, nothing is forgotten that is debilitating. Students attack what can stop and take an opponent out the quickest. This also stops serious tiger practitioners from entering any "tournament" fighting matches. Points do not matter in self-defense only the pain and real damage you cause to escape usually lethal situations. Once an attack is launched at a tiger stylist the table immediately turns in the defenders position. Students are trained from the beginning to let only minimal attacks through and then they focus and lowering that number to one. They then train to be able to launch attacks at the slightest hint of reaction from an assailant. Self-defense must also be approached and learned psychologically as students do not fight unless necessary. Tigers only hunt and defend themselves, they do not fight for ego or pride. This is why self-defense can become so powerful when needed, because it does not rely on showy techniques but those that definitely stop and debilitate an attacker. From this the mind is put into another state of consciousness as life or death comes to the front not simply showing off or fainting egotistical illusions that you're not afraid. You simply react and use your own power to stop any further harm. CONDITIONING Methods are used at various intervals and levels to prepare the students body for the aspects and training of the tiger system. The first is the claws or "claw" position used in the hands for the tiger style. Used for striking and then raking the damaged is doubled in every technique. This is done by hand drills and they in turn compound in their weight and intensity. One such drill is a jar filled with various weight of sand or water and the student picks it up only with the fingers and then the weight is increased as the student advances. This also builds the forearm and finger strength that helps in grappling and pressure point strikes. Combined with deeper stances and full body use of torque and jing one develops enough power to defend against any size opponent. Another method used by many styles is iron skin/body conditioning. One method is to begin with heavy tension and breathing exercises. This strengthens all the tendons and muscles in the frame. From there, the students go through a set of 2-person body pounding drills, which hardened the whole skeletal structure. Then breathing forms/techniques completely coordinate the whole person's body and breathe to start the final phase. The energy built up is strong enough to protect the student and they begin the hardest part of the training, which is a type of masochistic body pounding drills. They began with the 2-person drills but continue into wood sticks, large shafts, and then even metal rods. The body is so strong and tensed that a single block or blow can be the only one needed to eliminate any opponent. These drills are for advanced students and even incorporate external/internal iron palm training. Combined with the iron body, there is not one expecting individual to know the hard learned lesson of challenging a Tiger stylist. Why this is so effective is that you can still look like a small-framed woman that has no power in your body (to an unsuspecting assailant) and then explode using your whole muscular and skeletal frame plus all the hidden tendons and sinews to be more than a match for them! FORMS Forms also play a major role in the beauty and preparation of the student. They are animal and cat like but also incorporate techniques that will work with the tiger style. Nothing is left out that is useful. There are claws, knees, elbows, rakes, tearing anything to defend one's self. Being petite and dainty is not the tiger forms approach. Forms are done in a fashion to show the manipulation of the power of the student, rising and lower the center of weight to prepare for various approaches and balances of the body. Not many defensive or receding movements are needed as the system wishes a quick and simple demise of any situation the stylist is in. Beyond the defensive aspect, there are many techniques also in the forms such as balance, speed differences, and multiple targets. TECHNIQUES Techniques are straight to the point and devastating. The kicks are mostly aimed at the lower targets such as knees and groin. This is quicker and stops the student from attacking areas that aren't debilitating. Low kicks also help in the foundation and stances during the fight. Techniques vary as much as the student's bodies as they are trained to use every part of their body for attacks. From elbows, claws, forearm strikes to kicks, sweeps and knees. This allows a consistent flow in combat. When a strike might close off an area then the next body part flows into the gap left open for an attack. Grappling and pressure points are far from out of the system. Since a greater amount of open hand strikes are used, this allows the grappling and throws easily into a next technique. Pressure points are also hit in a way that the fingers can then sink into the area needed for extra pain and effect. Remember that in the wild tigers often fight from their backs and roll around on the ground so they are as easily able to attack from that position that might be considered lost to a tiger practitioner. The most evident technique is the tiger styled claw, which is a combination of a palm strike followed by finger raking and clenching. This is why the brute strength of the student is not as important, since a correct strike can cause massive pain to anyone being hit. This usually focuses on eye, throat, groin and any spot that skin can be torn at or open organs exist. Spots that are also pressure points can lead to dropping larger attackers with one hit. As the palm causes a cavity shock the fingers then squeeze and damage the outer tissue and hence pressure points lying there. WEAPONS As with many styles, weapons become either passed through tradition or added due to many circumstances. Instructors find and adapt all the weapons they can to increase their understanding of movement and also honor tradition in the process. Through training with different instructor, weapons can come to be apart of a tiger system, yet they began or where originals of another. This is true of many systems but time and secrecy has covered this history up. They could range from the eclectic Kwan Do to the practical staff. Practical weapons are more of a tiger namesake and use since its ferocity would lean towards those items usable in street defense and then continue to train the student in the ancient more traditional weapons offered by each instructor. One often seen weapon is a Tiger Fork, like a three pronged trident. The use of such heavy weapon training would be to compliment the stance and body strength even further then the normal tiger style training. Since Tiger is originally one of the main forms of kung fu taught at Shaolin, it would be more than likely that most instructors would have at least half a dozen weapons to teach and those being a mixture in variety. As most styles of martial arts stem from China, the tiger style discussed is more prevalent in Chinese systems. Though the "tiger" of other arts is still linked in many aspects to the Chinese style, its spirit and power have transcended the evolution of other versions beyond kung fu. Penjak Silat, Kung Fu, and even some Karate styles all have the power and tenacity of the tiger integrated in some fashion. From techniques to stances mocking the crouched and powerful presence of the tiger, any art using the animal all share some quality that gives the great cat the respect it earns in nature."

Here is an article from http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/article.php?sid=24 The Secret History of Wing Chun "Although the world itself has not gotten smaller, life in the Information Technology Age (via the media of email and Internet) has made contact and communication with people around the globe easier. Consequently, it is now harder for information and research to be constrained or concealed, or for only one perspective to be put forward. Most importantly, it means that certain myths will not be perpetuated. Information pointing to the historical origins of Wing Chun kung fu is one of them... "The first casualty when war comes is truth." -- Hiram Johnson Put simply, the harsh truth is this: the myth of the Buddhist nun, Ng Mui and her disciple Yim Wing Chun, the supposed founders of the Wing Chun system, is just that - a myth. As the internet has brought information more readily to us, it has come to light that the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun was merely a way to conceal the truth about the system's origins and the identities of the political rebels who actually developed it. After almost 400 years, mounting evidence is pointing to the truth of Wing Chun's creation and evolution. The question being; is the kung fu world ready for it? There is no doubt that the information which is about to be disclosed will ruffle feathers to say the least. This is mainly because many Wing Chun instructors throughout the world are naively, and through no fault of their own, imparting a romanticized, fantastical history of the Wing Chun system. They are telling and retelling a story that is little more than a fairytale. A view of the traditional legends with an eye on history reads as an even more fascinating point of view. And no less deserving of the term `legendary'... Secrets in the Shadows of Shaolin As near as history can testify, Wing Chun was developed around 400 years ago in a time of civil unrest. Between 1644 to 1911, the Manchurians ruled a Chinese nation where 10% of the population (the Manchus) ruled over 90% of the population (the Hons). To maintain control over the Hons, the Manchus ruled with an iron fist. Aggression and oppression were the cornerstones of the Dynasty and the Hons were banned from using weapons or training in the martial arts. Thus, in order to overthrow their oppressors, rebel activity was instigated by martial arts masters who were in hiding. Rebel activity developed rapidly in the Buddhist monasteries, which were largely left alone by the Manchus out of respect for the Buddhist culture and religion. These Shaolin/Siu Lam sanctuaries were ideal places for renegades to conceal themselves. They simply shaved their heads and donned the monastic robes of the disciples of the temple. During the day, the rebels would earn their keep by doing chores around the temple. At night, they would gather to formulate their plans to overthrow the Manchus. There are some that maintain that Shaolin/Siu Lam sanctuaries possessed no political leanings. They further emphasize that the Buddhist teachings of these monasteries would have prevented their supporting rebels and secret societies. Such a position is emotional at best with no grounding in historical fact. Religious leaders throughout history, in both the Western as well as the Eastern world, have influenced politics and government since the beginning of time. Churches have forever harbored political victims sought by authorities which were deemed to be oppressive. In China's case, serious precedent for such behavior on the part of the monasteries had already been set 400 years earlier. As verified by Ving Tsun Museum research, Jyu Yuhn Jeung, the man who led the Chinese revolt against the Mongols and established the Ming Dynasty, was himself, a Buddhist monk. Upon meeting, the revolutionaries identified themselves to each other with a secret hand-signal that would come to be the formal greeting or courtesy of Wing Chun. In fact, the traditional greeting or courtesy common to many of today's kung fu styles has two meanings. The first meaning recognizes the style's Shaolin origins - the left hand symbolized the union of the Green Dragon (the left hand) and the White Tiger (the right hand) - The fighting animals of the Shaolin monks. In the Hung Fa Yi (Red Flower Righteous) Lineage of Wing Chun, however, the hands are reversed: the left hand forms a fist and the right hand is open palm. It still retains its significance to Shaolin but it also refers to the secret society. In this context, the fist represents Yat (the Sun) and the palm represents Yuet (the Moon). Combined, these two characters mean "Bright" which reads and sounds like "Ming." This is the name of the previous Dynasty - The one overthrown by the Manchurians who founded the "Ching" Dynasty in its place. Hence, during the time of rebellion, when a Wing Chun practitioner or secret society member saluted with a fist and open palm pushed toward you, they were saying "Return the Ming, overturn the Ching." Obviously, this was not a sentiment shared by the Manchus. Late in the 1600's, the Manchurians became concerned about the Siu Lam Temples' rebellious activities and their continual development of the fighting arts. Therefore, they sent spies (many of them Manchu military leaders) to infiltrate the rebels and learn the traditional Southern fist systems as taught secretly in the Temples. The rebel kung-fu masters, realizing this, clandestinely developed a new system that was two-fold in purpose: firstly, it had to be learned quickly and efficiently. And secondly, it had to be devastatingly effective against the existing fighting systems that the Manchus were learning and teaching to their soldiers. Thus, Wing Chun was born. Their spy rings compromised, the Manchus decided to eliminate the threat of spreading rebel activity by simply exterminating the Siu Lam monks. Eventually, the Southern Siu Lam Temple was burned and destroyed. Extensive research conducted by the Ving Tsun Museum points to a generation of inheritors following the Southern temple's burning. Among them was a gentleman named Cheung Ng (referred to as Tan Sao Ng in other texts). Of this generation of inheritors, Cheung Ng is one to date that has proven to have historically existed. After establishing the Beautiful Flower Society Association (the precursor to the Red Opera and the public name for the Red Flower Society) and providing Wing Chun training to the secret societies, Cheung Ng went into hiding - Disappearing from the public eye to escape Qing Dynasty persecution. He was hidden by distant relatives, a Fuk Gin business family named Chahn. The Chahn Sih Sai Ga (Chan family) were well established and wealthy. Through indirect action they were willing to help Cheung Ng. Staying with the family for over a decade, Cheung Ng taught the family the art of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. It was preserved by the family for four generations before it was taught to outsiders. The direct members of the Chahn family were never directly involved with the secret societies themselves, resulting in a low profile in Praise Spring Boxing history. The last generation of the Chahn family to learn the art was a distant nephew, Huhng Gan Biu, who was a high level secret society leader. In Qing archives as well as historical research into Chinese secret societies, a person by the name of Chahn Biu was recorded as the leader of the Heaven and Earth Society. He was caught and executed by the Qing authorities. Due to similar names appearing in difference sources at around the same time-frame, there is much debate as to whether the Opera's Biu and the Heaven and Earth Society's Biu were the same person. According to members of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun clan, Huhng Gan Biu was the 4th generation leader of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun clan and his Wing Chun descendants have preserved the system through to the 8th generation Master, Garrett Gee, and his 9th generation students in today's modern era. It was at the fourth generation that history and truth parted ways, and the myth of Wing Chun's origins was created. The story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun. The legend was told that among the survivors of the Shaolin/Siu Lam massacres, was a Buddhist nun named Ng Mui. Ng Mui was believed to have been the sole custodian of a streamlined, highly practical and effective martial art developed within the temples. In turn, Ng Mui is said to have passed her knowledge onto her chosen disciple, a young girl named Yim Wing Chun. As Yim Wing Chun taught the system to others, it became known as Wing Chun. The story spread and today many versions of it exist around the world. However, there are three important considerations in regard to the story of Ng Mui. Firstly, outside of the legend, there is no other evidence that Ng Mui acted in the capacity of a kung-fu grandmaster or founder of a kung-fu system. No records. No historical documents. Nothing. Secondly, it would have been forbidden for a nun to live in, let alone train within, a celibate monastic environment like the Siu Lam /Shaolin Temples. Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, after escaping from a life and death situation as a revolutionary, it does not make sense that Ng Mui would teach an advanced level fighting system to a local girl with romantic problems and no connection to the revolution. At that time in Chinese history, the Qing dynasty had devised a special form of punishment for traitors and rebels. After being made to confess his or her crimes, the guilty party was executed. Afterwards, Qing officials would hunt down members of the guilty party's family down to nine generations and execute them as traitors as well. Teaching Yim Wing Chun a martial art would directly put her life at risk. With regards to the Yim Wing Chun element of the legend, consider once more the relevance of secret rebel societies. `Yim' can be translated to mean `prohibit' or `secret.' The term `Wing Chun' referred to a geographic location - The Siu Lam Wing Chun Tong (Always Spring Hall), where the rebels perhaps practiced martial arts and orchestrated their seditious activities. The use of the term Spring symbolized the rebirth of the Ming Dynasty and Always referred to the reestablished dynasty lasting forever. After the destruction of the Southern Shaolin temple and its Wing Chun Tong, the survivors changed the character of Wing from Always to Praise. The term 'Praise' referred to the fact that the revolutionaries had to spread the word about the revolution after the destruction of their base. Thus, `Yim Wing Chun' was actually a code-name, meaning (protect) the secret art of the Wing Chun Hall. If we now know that the destruction of the Siu Lam/Shaolin Temples occurred, but that the story of Ng Mui was a diversion, the question remains - Who were the real custodians of the Wing Chun system? Enter the Hung Suen We do know that many (not the legendary five) monks and rebel leaders escaped the Manchurian massacres, and to aid the secrecy of the system, historical material was passed directly from teacher to student. Thus, the elders told of two Siu Lam monks/rebels who survived the temple raids and were able to keep their Wing Chun system alive. One of these was a monk - A 22nd generation Siu Lam Grandmaster, Yat Chum Dai Si, from the Northern Shaolin temple. The other, Cheung Ng, was a rebel training under Yat Chum Dai Si in the Southern Temple. Fleeing the Manchurian persecutors, Cheung Ng founded the Kihng Fa Wui Gun (Beautiful Flower Society), the roots of the (in)famous Hung Suen (Red Boat) Opera Troupe. Historically, we know that rebel activity flourished in the Red Boat Opera Troupe. The Red Boats allowed talented stage performers, accomplished in kung-fu and gymnastics, to form their own secret societies to overthrow the Manchu Dynasty. The Troupes provided the ideal sanctuary for fleeing rebels as the performers wore elaborate costumes and stage make-up, providing excellent but natural/plausible disguises for them. Additionally, the performers were known by their `stage-names' which they adopted to further cloak their secret identities. When Cheung Ng founded the Opera Troupe he became known as Tan Sao Ng - not only a stage-name, but also a sly nod to his skillful deployment of the Wing Chun deflection/striking technique, Tan Sao. An important fact to note is that so suspicious of the Manchus and their spies were these secret societies, that the true identities of the leaders, members and real nature of their activities were known only to an inner-circle within the society. Thus, genuine knowledge of kung-fu was passed only from a master to select, trusted disciples - Thus protecting the purity and origins of the system. In conclusion With the development of many different lineages of Wing Chun over the centuries (over 10 are known to date), Wing Chun could simply be seen as a generic name for a style with so many lineages. This is no different than `karate' being a generic term to describe the various, yet similar Japanese arts. However, this article has focussed on shedding light on the origins of Wing Chun. Indeed, to chart the development of the various lineages would require an entire book more complete than anything currently written. A complete historical and political analysis of Wing Chun's origins and development is currently being compiled in book form by the Ving Tsun Museum and should be available through major publication sources within the next twelve months. A hypothesis that Cheung Ng was indeed the inheritor of the art from Southern Temple, and the guiding force behind its employment as a complete combat training system for rebels, certainly has more historical weight behind it than the legend of a young girl. It represents a much more plausible explanation of Wing Chun's roots considering the completeness of the art in terms of total combat effectiveness. It also gels with the historical background of the times preceding the Red Boat Opera travels. However, as with all historical study, one hypothesis can give great impetus to further in-depth study, giving rise to even more revelations. In short, more study grounded in the proper structure and atmosphere of true historical research will get us even closer to reality. Hats off to the Ving Tsun Museum staff and researchers for moving our search into the realm of scientific investigation and giving us another starting point for serious research! Myths are often created to simplify something or to disguise the true nature of the subject to make it more palatable to the mind. Consequently, sometimes people want to believe the myths despite scientific or historical evidence to the contrary. A fiction can be more comforting than the truth - A fairytale easier to grasp than a treatise. The legend of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun is a great story. It just isn't true. In light of being told one story for centuries, it will be difficult for some to accept the truth in minutes, hours or even months. But studying the martial arts, and Wing Chun in particular, is a continual quest for truth. Personal truth, social truth, spiritual truth, and yes, historical truth. I trust you have enjoyed your enlightenment on the true origins of Wing Chun. " An internationally published author, Sifu Benny Meng is the founder and Curator of the Ving Tsun Museum in Dayton, OH, USA. A practitioner of Wing Chun for over 15 years, Sifu Meng has come into contact with most of the major families in Wing Chun. More information is available on the Ving Tsun Museum at http://www.vtmuseum.org or by mail at 5715 Brandt Pike, Dayton, OH 45424, phone/fax (937) 236-6485. Sifu Alfredo Del-Brocco has been training in Wing Chun for over 15 years, firstly under the guidance of Grand Master William Cheung, then under Master Rick Spain. Today he teaches around 350 active students in his Brisbane Kwoon. Sifu Alfredo was also the recipient of the 1998 Australasian Blitz Kung Fu Instructor of the Year Award. Sifu Alfredo can be contacted at http://www.wckfo.com.au or by phone / fax : (07) 3229 8694

I recommend the book "Myth's and Legends of the Martial Arts" by Peter Lewis. Very interesting and informative. If you wanto I'll also post some stories on this board. [ This Message was edited by: ChangWuJi on 2001-10-23 18:51 ]

Kung Fu is for killing (self defense), grappling is for sport. You can't more around while grappling and you get kicked with boots. 8 step praying Mantis has grappling in it, as alot of other Kung Fu styles. It's called Low Mantis, it is fighting from a fallen position , usually taping or locking the legs to pull oppnents to the ground then they follow up with a joint lock or a submission technique! BTW, ever heard of Chi'n Na? I heard that in Ultimate Fighting Championship #6 in Buffalo N.Y, Joel Sutton (studies this 8 step praying Mantis) Beat the helll out of a 300 Lbs guy, the bloodiest U.F.C fight in history, and split his head open with low Mantis and even had the 8 step shirt on. BTW here is what else I read on Gracie: "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu along with the Gracie dynasty was destroyed by a mere Japanese Pro-Wrestler by the name of Kazushi Sakuraba, he went through the top guys of the Gracie Family like nothing (besides Rickson Gracie because he dosn't want to tarnish the family name further more) Also Sakuraba made non-believers believers that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has many flaws" here is more: "The whole statement saying BJJ fighters dominating events like UFC and Pride is ridiculous really, from 1997-2000 some of the top BJJ fighters fell victim to Sakuraba in Pride and it changed everyones opinion on BJJ. 10 prominant BJJ fighters to be exact like Royce Gracie, Renzo Gracie, Ryan Gracie, Royler Gracie, Vitor Belfort, Anthony Macias, Ebenezer Braga, Carlos Newton, Conan Silvera. I don't know about some people but Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is played out at least Helio's side that is, Royce refuses to grow with the times and still thinks it's the early 90's and stuck where he's at, the BJJ community considers him only in the blue belt class now, and if people think he's all that the last time I saw Royce Trying to prove himself in a full Sport Jiu-Jitsu tournament, he was out on the floor unconcious after Wallid Ismail choked him out." I don't think you can put an athelete up against a master and expect the athlete to win. that's not a slam on cross training at all. i just think that it's a whole different ball game when you put anyone up against someone of a master's level. do i think Yip Man (Wing Chun) would beat ken shamrock or whoever is popular these days in the nhb events? absolutely. maybe i'm wrong, but i doubt it. A master, who devote their entire lives to the study of ONE style are miles ahead of any hot-headed guy with a flicky backfist or sidekick. And yes, most fights endinng or even going to ground is a myth. It is a myth spread by Western boxers/grapplers that fight crazy with rage and grab each other. A technitian (true martial artist) would never fight uncontrolly like this, and would use strikes, joint locks, etc. to end the fight as quickly as it started and get ready for more opponents lurking in the shadows. [ This Message was edited by: ChangWuJi on 2001-10-18 22:53 ]

I've decided to post this here and not just the Kung Fu forum, because it implies to alot of different martial arts, and is a very interesting article. It can be found on http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/tadzio/grappling01.html: "Xingyi and Grappling: -The Situation Today At this point, we fighters all have heard about how efficient grappling methods are in special Brazilian Gracie Jiujitsu. Most of us have already seen BJJ fighters destroying opponents in NHB events such as the Ultimate Fighting Championship, Pride and others. We also know many Gong Fu practitioners that train BJJ or Wrestling as well. They say that Gong Fu is very good as a "striking art" or for your "standing game", but doesn't have any ground-fighting. In fact, these people are afraid to face BJJ fighters in a match, because deep in their hearts, they know they are going down. And if a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground and you don't know what to do, you really have a good reason to be afraid. Why we have this situation nowadays? Why are so many people scared to face BJJ fighters? Are this BJJ fighters that good? Do they have fantastic or secret methods to take you to the ground? Why is it that 99.9% of the people who learn Gong Fu don't trust in what they have learnt and have to "complement" their skills with BJJ or Wrestling? There is something wrong; that's for sure. Something very wrong. BJJ and Grappling arts are not new; they have been around for centuries and centuries. Why then, since the end of the 80's, have we had this Grappling arts boom? The Gong Fu flying kicks were so famous ... what happened to the "Iron Palm" masters? What happened to the "death touch" that some teachers used to say was the secret to beat anyone, anywhere, no matter how big the opponent could be? Where are the famous Shaolin palm strikes? What happened to the internal arts ability to Fa Jin? Since these people are so good, where did they all go, and why do they need to learn BJJ? -The Tradition goes down So these guys all disappeared. Why? Because they were a fraud. These people that called themselves "teachers" or "Masters" were never able to teach anything, for they really never had any real knowledge about Gong Fu. The only knowledge they really had or have is about how to fool people and empty their pockets. What happened is that after a certain point in Chinese recent history, the communist government decided that the country would never achieve a level of progress if its people would still believe in traditional old culture. At that point ( the end of the 60's ) the government decided that if the country would progress, they would have to fight again what they then called " The four olds"; they were 1 - Old culture 2 - Old habits 3 - Old traditions 4 - Old way of thinking It's unnecessary to say that the martial arts where considered to be among all the four olds. To practice any martial art was then forbidden for 10 years and several teachers and Masters were sent to work stations to be "purified through hard work." Many others were sent to jail and suffered with things that we don't need to talk about here. It was a dark period of time in history where students would turn Masters down. In 1972, almost at the end of the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese government decided that it was time to bring China again to international relations and open the country's door. Part of this plan was to (re)introduce to the rest of the world the Chinese culture, or better saying, what the government decided it was interesting to present as "real Chinese culture". Almost every aspect of the old Chinese culture were reformulated, and the martial arts were also reformulated. Because of the Revolution, many styles completely disappeared, many were kept in secrecy and many others couldn't be found in China anymore, only abroad. A lot of styles were still out there, but to bring them back on scene would require a great effort by the government. It was decided then that many officials were to travel the whole China searching for whatever trace they could find about these old styles of Gong Fu. The process, as expected, took many years, and the government, during the time, compiled information about several styles of fighting. It was a survey. It was created then a kind of synthetic Gong Fu, a hybrid martial art, that didn't have in fact it's own characteristic. In 1973 the communist party publish the "New rules for Wu Shu competitions." At this point any Gong Fu techniques that had offensive or defensive movement were gradually replaced by more gymnastic maneuvers. The tendency to have more dance-type actions in Gong Fu appeared. This caused an argument over what the acrobatics movements really meant; that is to say Wu Shu should be Wu ( martial art) and not Wu ( dance ) " Kang Gewu - 5000 years of Chinese martial arts. With the new "opening" plan in action, teams and teams of Wu Shu practitioners ( I see them more as dancers ) were sent abroad to show the world the new Chinese culture. To Western eyes, Chinese that could perform incredible jumps and astonishing kicks would definitely be very proficient fighters. They were so wrong... any Ballet guy could make the same movements with some training and good instruction. The new Wu Shu then invaded West in a time where very few people were teaching Asian martial arts. It was a lie. And they bought it. So this dance, created by the government, without any martial application, this came to be known as Gong Fu. What people believed to be Gong Fu was nothing more than a lie. The Dragon sleeps, while the Tiger is awake While the west (especially the U.S.) was learning how to " dance " Wu Shu, the BJJ was growing very fast in Brazil. Since the 20's (1920), the Gracie family (mainly through Helio Gracie) began to modify the old Japanese JJ into a highly efficient martial art. At that time, in Brazil, people had a wrong idea about what a true martial art should be. There, most part of the people also believed in the so called "Gong Fu or Karate" "Masters" and their fantastic techniques. Helio Gracie, Carlson Gracie, their brothers and cousins begun to show the world, that people needed more reality in what they practiced. They begun to show the world that you can't be a fighter and a dancer. The style they developed began to spread very fast. "Many times I couldn't make the movements my brother was teaching, because to make this movements you needed to use a lot of power, and I was a weak boy. So I began to adapt this old JJ to myself. Once someone asked me if I created a new fighting style; I just inserted a kind of a crowbar in each movement. I had to use a crowbar to be able to do what I do without using strength. And then, I reinvented the JJ" - Helio Gracie. It's important to understand then, that while the Chinese were worried about showing the world a "new" kind of Gong Fu, something beautiful and nice to see, the Gracie family was worried about developing a fighting system that could be used by any person, know matter how strong the opponent. While the Chinese were "dancing around the world," the BJJ was being tested over and over, like Helio Gracie said: "The goal of my life was to teach JJ. We needed someone to be the protector of the new BJJ, and I was this person, as a fighter. So every time someone would have doubts about my techniques, I would step in to the ring and destroy the guy, to prove the efficiency of our fight." The Gracies were fighting everyone back then: kickboxers, Gong Fu fighters, karate, Judo, wrestlers ... everyone was going down. Soon, they were in the U.S., and America found out about the Gracie JJ. And most of the guys that didn't believe in it, also went down. Rickson and Rorion Gracie fought almost everyone. They never chose the opponents. Like their father, Helio Gracie, they have the mind set of the warrior, while the people who were learning Gong Fu had the mind set of the dancers. -The Myths Because of the almost total efficiency of BJJ and because everybody was going down, some myths were created back in the 80's and early 90's: 1 - All the fights begin standing and end up on the ground - there is nothing you can do about it. 2 - If a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground, then it's all over. 3 - If a BJJ fighters achieves the "mounted" position, it's all over. 4 - You have to learn how to fight on the ground 5 - Mixed martial arts are the best. These statements are, in fact, ridiculous. But I understand why most part of people believe them. Having in mind the Wu Shu dance, you really begin to think that you have to learn ground fighting and really begin to believe in these "myths." But they are not true at all. Let's analyze them. 1 - All the fights begin standing and end on the ground - Why is that? Why do fights end up on the ground? What happens is that people, first of all, are not learning real Gong Fu, so they don't have the necessary technique to avoid being taken to the ground. In how many ways you can take a person to the ground? Mainly 3 or 4, and the other techniques are only variations. Learn how to counter these movements, like the famous "double leg" or the Brazilian JJ "baiana." They are not difficult to defend. The Gong Fu style you practice should give you tools so you can deal with this techniques. What is lacking to the Gong Fu people out there ( in terms of Xing Yi ): a - The mind set. The beast inside. b - Strong Stances - San Ti Shi training is vital here - spend a lot of time on it. c - Chen Jin d - How to Fa Jin, and how to release power using short movements. e - How to use elbows, knees, hips, and shoulders. The 2 man form Pi Wuxing and the bear form are to be trained very well. f - Reality training. Full power sparring with no protection. g - A good teacher. In case you don't lack the above mentioned things and BJJ fighters still take you to the ground, well, then, train more. 2 & 3 - If a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground or achieve the mounted position, it's all over - So again here, we have a common problem. People don't know real Xing Yi Quan. They think they know or, worse, they are conscious they don't know but they want to fool other people. And again, what people (most people) know as Xing Yi is a lie. That's why myths like this spread so fast, because almost no one out there can prove they are only myths. If these people really know Xing Yi, they would understand that XY is not based on techniques, but rather in principles. It is in fact very simple to understand. Teachers train their student in the use of techniques that work for certain situations. At the moment their the opponent makes a different movement, they can't react , because they were not taught how to counter these movements; they didn't learn the proper techniques to apply. So at this point you can already understand that to know techniques is but a single step. More important than this, is to know the mechanics that work behind the techniques. You have to know the concepts. Concepts work in any situation; they work standing or on the ground. A very good example is about how to defend a punch. You have to look deep in to the movement (the punch) and understand that before being a punch, it's a straight force. So if you learn how to defend straight force attacks, and not only a punch, you can defend (using the same movement) a punch, a frontal kick, a side kick, a wrestlers double leg or a BJJ "baiana," for all these movements are in fact straight forces in motion. All good Xing Yi fighters know this. Well, at least they should. And more than anything principles are always principles, standing or on the ground. 4 - You have to learn how to fight on the ground - Wrong. Totally wrong. This is exactly the mistake BJJ guys never made. High levels of skill in any martial come only through specialization in a certain art. How do you expect to be proficient in Xing Yi also learning JJ, or wrestling? Why is so easy to take the Gong Fu guys to the ground? Because they are not specialists. At the other hand, BJJ fighters spend hours and hours at BJJ schools learning... guess what? Yes, only BJJ. After a couple of years, they are specialists in BJJ. Do grapplers learn boxing techniques? Yes, they do. But just a little. They know they will always be ground fighting specialists and they understand they only have to learn enough so they won't be knocked down in the process of taking you to the ground. They also understand that boxing is a very very small part of what they need, because the rely in the ground fighting techniques to finish the opponent. What do Gong Fu guys do ? Exactly what they shouldn't. Instead of training what they are supposed to, Gong Fu, they decide that they have to divide their time between Gong Fu and BJJ or wrestling. They should do what BJJ fighters do. Train a lot in what their are supposed to be specialists ( Gong Fu ) and have a minimum knowledge about ground fighting, so that in the case they go to the ground, they will no be finished. So what happens today is that grapplers are extremely good in what they do ( specialists ) and have a minimum knowledge of the standing game ( a lot of people is doing crosstraining and they are very good standing and on the ground, but the best fighters are still the specialists ). At the other hand, Gong Fu fighters are not so good standing and are also not so good on the ground. Some might even argue that " I train only Gong Fu and I still don't feel safe! ". Well my friend, the question is: what kind of Gong Fu are you training? If it is the " kick boxing " kind of Gong Fu, you will never feel safe anyway. For this is only sport. Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan. 5 - Mixed martial arts are the best - Nothing, nothing is better than specialization. When people have only part of a knowledge, something incomplete, they have to look out for other sources of knowledge.Imagine you have a half filled glass of water (your Gong Fu) but you have to fill the glass up. The problem is that you don;t have water anymore (you have a limited knowledge about the Gong Fu principles). In this case you have to find out other liquids to fill the glass up. You have a little bit of orange juice (grappling) and you have a bit of, say tequila (kick boxing). At the end, the glass is filled up, but the truth is that you have only a bit of everything. So as a fighter, you are not very good in grappling, not very good in kick boxing and not very good at Gong Fu. You have a bit of everything and at the same time you have nothing. It's true that many BJJ are now going a bit deep into boxing and Thai boxing, but take a look at the best guys ever : Rickson Gracie, Helio Gracie, Carlson Gracie, and Rolls Gracie; they are or were absolute specialist in BJJ. How about the famous Che Yi Zhai, Guo Yun Sheng, Wang Xiang Zhai ? Ok. Tell this guys they should mix a lot of martial arts together. Guys that never lost a single fight after they were well trained. -Conclusion The objective of this article is not to teach any Xing Yi Quan techniques, or teach you how to handle a grappler. This things can't be learn through the Net. For this you need a good teacher that really understands the principle of XY. What I do want to do, is to clarify all these myths that were created around the grappling arts. If you learn Xing Yi from a good teacher, you have all the conditions to defeat a grappler. The problem right know is that since 1920's BJJ was being perfected and focusing itself in street fight efficiency, while Chinese Gong Fu, as we saw, was being modified into a kind of beautiful dance. I want to add here that the attitude of some Chinese masters adds a lot to the Gong Fu world's situation today. But this is a subject for another article, the one entitled "Did Chinese martial arts missed a bit of reality over the years." ... coming soon ..." [ This Message was edited by: ChangWuJi on 2001-10-17 22:55 ]