Zanshin

Did you practise just Sokuto and Juntsuki then? If not, then you are practising the same techniques in your kihon training as well as your kata. Doubling up. No, but on reflection I should have answered your earlier post differently. I think I would agree with you (in principle) that the techniques that are performed in Kihon are fundamentally the same as those done in the pinan Katas, but the training of Katas like Seishan, Naihanchi and Chinto etc., do not find you practicing techniques in quite the same way. But I think you know that. That said, I believe there is a place for practicing the pinan katas on top of Kihon if only to provide a method of honing the techniques in a variety of stances and directions, and to practice combining of techniques. From a Wado perspective the practice of the pinan katas is really only “junbi” or warm up for the senior Katas. And of course, there is the fact that training in Katas can provide very limited practice of some techniques but an abundance of others (due to the frequency of use of techniques). And what does that have to do with the karate techniques you are over practising? Wado (karate) is modern. So is Goju, Shoto and Shito. I didn't say it was bad, just reminding you you are practising modern karate techniques designed for children (Physical Education Program designed by Anko Itosu). What kind of teaching methods are you referring to here? An often overly simplified categorisation of Wado is that it is comes from Shotokan and there fore is a version of it, or at least borrows most of it methods. In fact, Otsuka was already a master jujutsu-ka before he hooked up with Funakoshi from whom he initially learned his karate techniques. My point is I suppose, that Otsuka’s wado is more the integration of Karate techniques into his Jujutsu. Although my experience with training in other styles is limited, in a nutshell, I think the key difference is the incorporation of extensive paired kata into Wado. It has been said that the “canon” of Okinawan karate is how to unlock the techniques found within Kata and applying them to self defence scenarios. In the main this is done through the process of “Bunkai”. Wado however does not really utilise the “Bunkai” approach (or at least, not in a directly comparable way to the Okinawan method). Most styles have pre arranged sparing, but in addition to these, Wado has numerous paired kata each with a specific training purpose that range form close quarters fighting to ground work and defence against a knife. All good Wado schools incorporate a number (if not most these kata) into their training syllabus. They include but are mot limited to; Kihon Kumite Gumite Gata Ohyo Kumite Idori no kata (defence from kneeling position) Tanto Dori (knife Defence) Tachi Dori (defence against a sword). In 1939 when Otsuka officially registered his style of “Wado Ryu Karate Jujutsu” with the Dai Nippon Butokukai, He listed dozens more, including specialised techniques for policemen and the likes of self defence for Women. The “principles” of movement and technique that are developed through the practice of the solo katas (Seishan, Chinto Naihanchi etc) are incorporated into these paired kata, and I think what make Wado different to other styles. Are you referring here to the modern juntsuki with the fist being horizontal and the arm straight? This is only for show, to make kata look pretty. When punching an object, the fist should be vertical and the arm still bent. It is dangerous to hit an object the "kata" way I cant comment about other styles of Karate, but from a wado perspective the practice of “Jun-tsuki” in is definitely not just about “aesthetics”. For us it’s the training the body how to move as one. The movement occurs with the whole body. As such this technique as part of your Kihon practice does have purpose. Its not the way that you would apply it in self defence, but it was never intended to be used in that way. It’s a way of learning how to use your body. As a point of interest here, the wado Juntsuki differs quite a bit from the often wrongly compared to “oi tsuki”of Shotokan, as it is a lot higher in its stance and less angular. This makes it far more natural in my opinion and easier to move within. No sorry, they are modern ideas for a prettier looking kata. It does make the technique look better I agree with you, but again, I think it has purposes beyond aesthetics. One argument is that by keeping the fingers of your fist facing upwards as you extend the arm, it is easier to avoid “winging” the punch. (ie elbows going out and thus weakening the structure of the punch). Another is as I have said before, that it is a sort of physical timing prompt. The execution of good techniques should mean that the entire body starts and ends moving as one. On a theoretical level, it’s also the study of “rotational” energy. The rotational bit being reference to the fist turning at the point of impact, but it shouldn’t really be taken as literally as that. EG to release your wrist if it is being held, you could twist your arm, thus utilising rotational energy. Which punch? The modern version? What are the core principles in punching in your opinion? Physics dictates that there are only certain ways to generate power in a technique, one being potential energy - dropping and the use of gravity, another being kinetic energy – the increase of velocity (ie using your body in the most efficient way possible) and another being rotational energy. There are limited ways to generate power and if you rule out potential and rotational, (as they can be restricted), the best way is Kinetic. Basically, kinetic energy can be achieved by. 1. The waving of the body, 2. The twisting of the body and 3. The shifting of the bodyweight. In my experience Wado predominantly seeks to generate power from the second and third, as waving, can be too slow. Can you please advise where in each of those kata those principles are being practised? Purely from a Wado perspective the practice of these Kata are said to contain the following advantages: Naihanchi= The first practice of “inner circular” stance. By practicing this kata one teaches the body how to keep hip rotation to a minimum. Excessive movements are a waste of time from a budo perspective, so should be trained out. By practicing Naihaichi dachi correctly this restricts hip rotation and therefore trains small, fast hip rotation from your centre. Seishan= the progression of “inner circular stance” in that the feet are no longer in the same line. Wado seishan is a kata of two halves, the first half is performed under tension of the muscles very much from the Nahate school of thought, and the second being with relaxed muscles. The combination of both is very much a Shurite approach to karate. Ultimately I suppose its training to master being able to turn it on and off as required. Chinto, being probably the most senior of Wado katas is the “convergence” of the techniques found in the pinans (and therefore ultimately Kushanku) with the inner circular stances of Naihanchi and Seishan. The lightness of movement or balance bit I was referring to was the Kata-chi dachi that (in Wado) we call “Sagiashi” or heron stance. The key is to combine the lightness with the stability of the inner circular stance. Why the need to go to a seperate SD class? Karate (touide/tote) was established for the average bloke as means for self-defense against untrained and unarmed attackers. If you are not practising, or teaching, SD in class, then you are merely dong exercise. I didn’t say go to a separate SD class, but if all you want to learn is SD quickly, then perhaps a dedicated SD class is your better option. I look at karate as study of a martial system or way, with all the trappings of self improvement that come with it.

Will do. Unfortunately work has an irritating habit of getting in the way of fun things, and tonight is Club night so will have to keep you waiting. I want to provide decent info, so would rather not rush it.

ps GOM I'm not ignoring your post on the other thread, I'm just halfway through penning an epic lol, and what with all the "quotes" etc its taking some time and its getting a bit late over here so may have to finish tomorrow. Bear with me.

I agree. But the method of achieving these results are dependent on your instructor regardless of "style". It can be, but most styles exist because they have an established pedagogy encoded within their system.

Nope, Arguably all kihon is a reflection of a style's Kata, as that’s where it comes from, but equally what defines each of the styles is how exactly they perform their kata. Wado's pinan Nidan is performed very differently that of Shito ryu. Not only are there different moves, there are different objectives and ways of doing them. It will be a sad day for me when all karate styles are homogenised into one. Every karate is the same - punch, kick, step, block etc. Variations of these are down to the person out the front teaching and their influence/experience/knowledge. Not every Wado club does kata the exact same way. The same can be said about Shoto, Shito, and Goju. The "objectives" of all karate may be the same, however the methods of acheiving the end result often differ.

Here you go. Sorry about the music.

Yep, We got that one in wado too it’s called Ohyo Kumite Sanbonme. This vid shows it as more of a throw, but correctly it’s done by breaking your opponents posture, by levering them back against your arm whilst your hips rotate in opposite direction. Pretty much as you show. They key being the rotation of the hips. http://www.art-of-budo.com/karate/NL/media/video_kumite_ohyo3.htm

Nope, It goes a lot deeper than that. For example if "kime" were to be described as the tensioning of the body structure at the point of impact, how much do you put into a punch? IE is it at the point if impact until it leaves the target, or is it a split second before? Different styles apply different types of Kime. Arguably all kihon is a reflection of a style's Kata, as that’s where it comes from, but equally what defines each of the styles is how exactly they perform their kata. Wado's pinan Nidan is performed very differently that of Shito ryu. Not only are there different moves, there are different objectives and ways of doing them. It will be a sad day for me when all karate styles are homogenised into one.

It is a waste of time because you are about to practise the same techniques in the kata for another 40 minutes! Not if the Katas you train in do not contain any of the Kihon. For example, yesterday at our dojo we trained for 30 mins doing Naihanchi and Seishan. Neither of those have Sokuto or Juntsuki in them. Good job we practiced our Basics then! Yes, but the muscle memory you are building is for modern kata. Wado is a modern system, the modern techniques are to (example) punch chudan with a straight arm and horizontal fist. Add to that the long and awkward stances that you would never (I hope) use in a SD situation. This is bad muscle memory. Well you refer to Wado as a modern system, it is of course only as modern as the other major styles, but its origins are rooted in the Koryu jujutsu arts, and as such it borrows a lot of its teaching methods from them. Through the practice of Juntsuki, the student is not so much being given an appropriate way to punch in a fight, but more a piece of training apparatus to work on. Its practice not only strengthens the leg muscles but also teaches otherwise hidden aspects such training the body to move from the tanden (core centre), and thus correct weight distribution. Transition of movement and taisabaki is key in a fight. The rotation of the fist you refer to, and the straightening (but not locking out) of the back leg is a timing aid when performed in this type of kihon. This type of punch is not (and never has been) intended as a direct self defence application but more as a way to instil the core principles of punching. They follow a very traditional japanese way of "train hard and fight easy". The difference is golfers use those swings when playing golf. Karate-ka dont use kata kihon in anything by the performance of kata. We certailny don't use the kata kihon in kumite or SD. As I said in my previous post, Kata is the embodiment of movement. The student will take the Kihon ways to do techniques and then apply those to multidirectional movement. But there is a lot more to kata than that, as they often have additional or underlying reasons to practice them. For example Chinto Kata is said to be practiced for balance, Seishan to teach us how to turn on and off dynamic tension, and Naihanchi in order to teach us to use small sharp movements with our hips. Again, not so much a direct application for self defence but more a piece of training apparatus. Kata kihon is the driving range for kata performance. Indeed it is, and that’s why it should be practiced and fine tuned. Don’t get me wrong, Wado is a great karate system for self defence (arguably one of the best), but I think it’s important to understand that if you want to learn self defence, go to a dedicated self defence class. Wado karate is an art that you can study for a lifetime.

I agree with ps1. Most times it is a formality more than anything. You should be able to fight much better than the colored belts. I would think that the contact level may be different at this tourney, so I would look into that if I were you. With all respect, the formalities are practically irrelevant. Its how they do their karate that counts. Not how they perform their "Reigi" as that will often be different in two dojos of the same style. Kumite is Kumite at the end of the day but fact is, a Goju person has a different method of doing karate than a Shito-ryu person, and thats the unavoidable truth.

The kumite in Wado competitions is usually in accordance with WKF regulations. In essence a point scoring semi contact system using lightweight mitts and shin guards etc. Only specific areas of the body will score and there are no kicks permitted beneath the waist. From what I have seen of Kyokushin kumite in competition it is full contact and whilst no punching of the head is allowed (only kicks?); you are permitted to kick the thighs. So it is a sort of different game really. Both requiring a great deal of skill to do properly. As to what grade you enter the competition well I suppose that’s up to you. Most senior competitions are only categorised by weight anyway, so your grade doesn't matter. If it’s a local, smaller competition then they may categorise by grade i.e. beginners (up 7th Kyu), Intermediate (7th - 4th Kyu) and senior 3rd Kyu and above). Also if you are being entered as part of a club then it’s really down to your club instructor to advise. I would say you should go in at your Wado grade, particularly as you may have limited experience in WKF style comps. I agree with PS1. A dan grade in one style of Karate does not mean it should be recognised as a dan grade in another. In addition to the obvious i.e. Katas and Pairwork drills etc, there are also the more subtle differences stances, movement, kime and breathing etc. The things that take a long time to grasp. and are not interchangeable between styles. Good luck in the comp though and let us know how you get on.

Well no, I don't think so. There is a difference between practicing individual waza, as opposed to using the techniques within Kata. Like most things physical, you have to programme you muscle memory in order to correctly perform the technique. The best way to do that is through focused ongoing repetition. No different to golfers really. They will go down the driving range to continually practice and hone their swings, buts that in itself is not playing golf. In Karate terms Kihon is our driving range practice.

Yes, in a simplistic or basic sense. Most, if not all karate techniques are found in Kata (as thats where they came from), but the difference is the application of movement which is the embodiment of Kata. I suppose you could look this way - if Kihon is your karate alphabet, Kata is you karate vocabulary and kumite is your free speech. You leave a huge hole in your Karatye training if you leave it out in my opinion.

In our club in training session which are only a couple of hours long, we like to split the lesson down to equal quantities of the 3 K's ie 40 mins Kihon, 40 mins Kata, and 40 mins Kumite. But not neccesarily the same every week. An unwritten rule of our Dojo is that we always practice Kihon. Sometimes however we will spend balance of the class drilling down into one Kata and trying to perfect the movements contained within, other times we will do an entire lesson of kumite. It sort of ballances out in the end. I see no harm in practicing all of the Katas that you know at least once per day, but maybe you have to do some of this in your own time.

Always, Prior to a training session most students at our club will arrive 30 mins before the start and we will all go through everyone of our Katas. I have on many occasions trained with Shingo Ohgami sensei (Famous Kata Book Author) and I know he trains every Kata (in Every Style)every day. Do the math. That's a lot.

If its the Tomiki-Ryu that is practiced globally, it's Aikido. Or more correctly "Sport Aikido" although that's a contradiction in terms. I believe that Tomiki was a student of Ueshiba, and later Judo's Kano sensei's. "Tomiki Ryu" is his creation which was to try to make Aikido more competitive and therefore appeal to a wider audience.

I haven't seen this so cant comment on them. From what you have described it sounds a bit like what we refer to in Wado as Ohyo Kumite. The Wado approach to "bunkai" within Katas is slightly different to other styles, in that we have something called "Kaisetsu" which is where we make a physical comment about a particular move in the Kata IE Shuto. Through a series of Paired katas they are then fine tuned using an Uke, culminating in Jiyu Kumite which is free fighting. So why do the Katas in the first place then, when we have taken most of the moves out of them, practiced them using numerous different approaches and ultimately become effecient in using them? Answer – To learn the principles of movement against one or more oponent. Wado approach is different to other styles but not better, just another way to skin the same cat.

It is just another opinion to seek out and try. It doesn't have to undermine what someone else is doing. It can be a supplement to it. As long as it works in an efficient and effective way, then wouldn't it be an applicable bunkai? I am probably being a little unfair as a have only seen clips of his work. But what I have seen (which has been corroborated by feed back that I have read from many senior Karate sources), shows him demonstrating applications in a somewhat static way. By this I mean he demonstrates a variety of techniques against an opponent (all very interesting), but it seems to miss out an important element in my eyes and that is correct manoeuvring of the body. The way you body moves against your opponent is the best technique you have. When performing kata you should never find yourself in a position where you have stopped! (in the sense that your weight settles). The Japanese have an expression for this, its called "itsuki" which sort of means that you have become stuck. Correctly; katas should be performed so that they are "Ikita" or living katas. The applications shown in the clips I have seen are in contradiction to this principle so that’s why I say it may undermine what is being taught at some dojo.

Nukite is purely a way to describe the shape of the hand ie spear hand and is does not necessarily imply that you strike with the point of the spear (ie your fingertips), I think that’s a common misconception. It’s probably better looked at as a good way to increase the length of your arm and therefore giving you greater leverage. It is a very good example of how bunkai is misunderstood. Personally I would never strike any part of the body with my finger tips. Mr Abernetheys books (enjoyable as they may be for some), are no substitute for training with a knowledgeable instructor, and in some cases can undermine an instructors principles of teaching.

Although I don't have a problem in principle with what he is promoting as so called "bunkai-jutsu", I am wrestling with the pedigree of the process. His core training is apparently in Wado ryu, but I know from 20 + years of experience in Wado ryu that "Bunkai" in this form does not exist in Wado. So it leaves me scratching my head! I also have a problem with Wado people "defining" kata bunkai as "absolute" or even potential application as it effectively "kills" kata. I think the process of Kata is more about learning the principles of movement and how to find yourself in the best position against an opponent. Of course, the practice of specific techniques contained within a kata against an opponent (Kaisetsu) is important so that’s why we have the various "paired kata" or Yakusoku Kumite (pre arranged fighting) and Jiyu Kumite (free fighting). But that’s the Karate bullet out of the Wado gun. Other guns work differently, but with the same end result. Each to their own I guess.

Hmm. Not really into the "Zen" and the whole spiritual enlightenment thing really, but am looking forward to the answer.

It takes one hell of a marksman and a serious peice of kit to hit you from over half a mile a way, but for the sake of the post, is the answer "put your hands up" or something like that. Cant say I have been caught in a snippers cross hair that recently.

The x block is to block a kick. As for the jump our sensei told us it could be to avoid a sweep or maybe even a staff/weapon. Principle being to be agile. Point of safety. Don’t try to block a kick with your arms in this way. It is not the application of the move and you will end up getting hurt. Ask your sensei to explain the correct application of the kata. If he/she tells you that you can stop a leg with crossing your arms in the form of a block, find a new dojo.

Yes, practice and then practice some more. Put the thoughts of dan grade out of your mind until you have satisfied yourself that you can fight to a reasonable standard. If you cant fight, but get our dan grade anyway, you are cheating yourself. But I think you know that.

ying&yang, Not wishing to seek contention here but, how are you a "master" of 16 different styles? This is not supposed to be a rude question as I am intrigued. I have studied the same art for over 20 years and still don’t feel I have scratched the surface, many of my seniors (who have trained for 40 years plus) feel the same way. I am just interested to understand your perception of "Master". Is it a graded rank, IE first dan? Or an awarded level by your teacher, if so, do you have 16 different teachers? At a very basic level, if you hold 3rd dan in "Gendai" MA as permission to teach, it would take I would suggest an average of 8 years (min) to achieve this rank., training 2-3 days per week and that would be pushing it. By my maths you would have had to be training for 64 years to achieve this. Maybe you have, but even then, a 3rd dan does not really know an awful lot in my eyes, and can in no way be considered a master of the art.