Zanshin

True Karate is not about competition though.

Also with reference to the whole Do vs Jutsu thng, this is a very lofty subject. Basically there is a bit of misunderstanding as to the two approaches here in the west. Fundamentally there is no difference between the two.

A lifetime of fulfilment can come from taking up Boxing or Wrestling as well. Also, if you look at the original word Kara Te, there is nothing within adding a mental aspect of training, until the addition of the "Do" at the end. In truth, the idea of Do was not always present in the Oriental MAs, and is a more recent addition as the styles came to be used less on the field of battle, and more by civillians. Bujutsu became Budo. It wasn't always so. Hard work, dedication, and integrity are not soley garnered through MA study. Truly, many hard working individuals grow up with these characterisics without ever setting foot inside a dojo. Seen many 70 year olds boxing recently?

Don't even get me started Of course you need an instructor, you can get to 5th and 6th dan etc and still need guidance. Training with mates is great (in fact important), but you really need an old git to truly show you the way (to Amarillo ). z

Also, Could I be really pedantic and state the obvious, IE this is a "Karate" forum - "kara" meaning empty/open (of mind (or China depending on reading)) and "te" meaning fist/hand. It's not a boxing or wrestling forum although bits of it are and good luck to them. Ultimately Karate IS a Japanese/Okinawan art. Taught properly Karate can (and will) give a lifetime of fulfillment. But only if you train with the correct mindset. Just think of Mr Miyagi.

Wado's better In all seriousness, if you can find a good "Wado-Ryu" club in your area - at your age - that's what I would do. The SKF (Scottish Karate-do Federation) is headed by Hamish Adam and Colin Clapperton. Two absolutley top men (and super hard). https://www.skfscotland.co.uk Give them a go, you will not be disappointed. Z

The thing is, that neither of you are wrong. The deal is, we all have different goals in the arts, and can achieve them in different ways. Whether our goal is depth and mastery, or the "bottom line," as long as it is our goal, and what we actively seek, then each of us can get the depth that we want out of it. I highlight the portion above, because I think it is important to understand that not all Martial Arts or Ways come from the Orient, and therefore, there will be different viewpoints on mastery across cultures.[/b] Well; tallgeese and I are probably viewing karate through the same prism albeit at different angles (at least thinking wise) and I guess that's why we are sort of both right! Actually Bushi, as usual you are quite right with your "doesn't have to be oriental" view as martial is martial at the end of the day. However, I would respectfully suggest that to many people, Karate (which is an oriental art), is a way of applying a different mindset (or approach) to training as much as anything. At the end of the day fighting is fighting, you can't escape that but, what I love about the whole "budo" concept is that it is fighting, or training to fight, with added meaning. Don't get me wrong, the great Karate masters did not "by-pass" the combative reasons to learn how to fight (they could not afford to), but the key is how they "offset" or balanced their martial training in a way that would improve them (or us as students) as a human being(s). That's where we (in the west) miss the point, me thinks . Bushi - conditioned mindset through training is the key! Let the fireworks start Z

Hi tallgeese, As always you make your point very well. Indeed, it will always be a priority for some to have as many martial techniques available to them as posible, and the best way to do this is to cross train I suppose. If you ask a range of people as to why they practice martial arts, you will get a range of responses: - Fitness, self defence and sport, tend to be some of the initial reasons as to why many start and inteed they are not bad reasons at all, in fact they are the right reasons. Trouble is, for me there has to be more than that now. True Budo (Martail Way) should and does have more depth than just aquireing as many combatitive techniques as possible. It needs to challenge you, and yet bring a sense of order into your life. It needs to have great depth IMO, but then again I only study Japanese MA, in which a greater emphasis is placed on detail rather that quantity. Horses for courses though, but if you want to benefit from MA your entire life, my advise would be to apply yourself to a good system (with a good Instructor) and train in it religiously.

So... Why not train at an MMA club? Guaranteed they will have all of the results for you. Z BTW because this board is predominately frequented by North Americans it is pretty quite this time of night.

Hhmm... Whilst karate masters may have "ranks" in different styles it is important to remember that you can only be a master in one. I guess people will have differing views on this. The very act of training is an effort to master something but, it is never complete... (i.e. you can always get better at something). That’s Budo really. Anyway getting back onto topic, if you want to learn bits and bobs from various styles, that does not make you a bad person. The youtube clip you detailed is what most would refer to as "Nihon Jujutsu" (or mother Jujtsu techniques). Nothing special really, but if it floats your boat and you want to learn more, you have options. 1. Go to a guy who can show you the moves 2. Go to a guy who understands how to truly make them work. 3. Train in an art that has these embedded into them any way as part of their pedagogy. Number 1 is easy, you've already done it (ie you tube). 2 you will have to look a little harder, 3 will take you about 10-15 years to start to crack the nut. Number 3 by the way is the best way. IMO I am sorry to sound like I am picking on you (particularly as you are a newbee), but I believe that MA is all about quality not quantity. Don’t spread yourself to thin. Spend your time looking deeper into your chosen art (and you) rather than trying to shop around for bargains.

I think that you have to be at a certain level to truly benefit from books and online reference material, otherwise you will not understand. It’s been said a squillion times before but still very true, you can only really learn a martial art if you train with an instructor who is good enough to teach you. There is no substitute really, books reinforce knowledge, but are no substitute. As far as training in different arts here is where I stand: After maybe 10 - 15 years of continuous training in one style (and one style only), I think that there is no problem with someone starting to train, or at least experience other MA's (as long as it is conducive for them to do so). To me it must re-enforce their primary art, not water it down. On the other hand I notice you use the word "blend"...! Personally I would never feel qualified to “blend” arts / systems together (much as I am tempted to sometimes). Karate is a bit like Whiskey the single malt is always Superior to the blended variety

So can you show me the way to Amarillo? Z

Don't you guys have something like 46 kata in your style? Phew!

This is great demo by Toby Threadgill sensei, in which he demonstrates perhaps some of the possible origins of the wrist grab. The first 2 mins or so show him performing Iai/batto sword drawing techniques. At 2:50 onward he demonstrates some really cool throws against weapon takes, leading on to tanto dori (knife) and then open hand defences. Now this stuff is really old school (koryu), but you will notice that wrist grabs/throws/locks are (were back then) very abundant. Controlling the weapon hand is key, and perhaps this process was so important that its application continued into the gendai arts of aikido and modern jujutsu etc. that we know today. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ibKCaHSJn4I I know in my particular style, these applications and principles are very important. Z

So have you stopped "bouncing" northerndragon?

Just thought this might interest you seen as we are talking about tai-sabaki. Here is a clip of Kuroda Sensei who, for my money, is probably one of the best martial artist in the world today. This is body management.... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sXsMSoXrNgo Z

from what I understand right now is that it is both. there is a red huge red ring on the mat and you fight inside it. they recommend that you try to score points using the sabaki method, but not required, also a plus for me. you can throw in tournament!! the competition part is pretty neat, one rule is that you can grab the gi for 3 seconds..?? also, the moving part is exactly what you think it is, to not meet force with force, to move to the side of the opponent.. lots of frontal attacks though like Kyokushin.. Ok I see, so it is the "sabaki" of "tai-sabaki" but put into competition format which would make sense, as you couldn't withstand the onslaught of full contact karate for long, if you didn't utilse evasive techniques. Good to put into a full contact perspective I suppose, but surely, all quality ma would systematically employ this as part of their teaching...wouldn't they?

I think it is important to remember that in order to apply the "Aiki" (harmonious flow of energy ) you have to at first react against the "te-dori", otherwise it doesn't work. So its a contradiction in terms really. For a split second you are pushing toward the direction of attack. Unfortunately many people today see youtube clips of Aikido and instantly dismiss it as being weak because it doesn't look strong on the screen. Its one of those things that you have to feel for yourself really to understand how it works. Z.

These guys are probably the best resource on the net for Aikido: https://www.aikidojournal.com Z

So Throwdown, Any clearer on what "sabaki" is? Is it a competition style or a way of moving. I know where my money is, but I want to give Bushi a chance. Only fair really

I am practicing at home and I am getting there slowly. Hi nanook660, I notice your avatar displays a Wado Ryu Renmei / Academy badge. If you are with this group your are well equipped. Mr Shiomitsu is a very knowledgeable instructor who is an expert in how to perform correct wado "za rei". As far as the pain is concerned, you should ask your sensei, as it may be something to do with your body posture and how you are distributing your weight. If you are allowing your buttocks to rest on your heels for example, you are sitting too far back. This could be forcing the tops of your feet into the ground. If you are pitching forward the weight will be pushing through your knees etc. Also bear in mind that many of us westerners just ain't built to sit in this position for long (overweight). So it is not easy, but you should continue as it is an important part of Wado. Ask sensei.

BTW, My missus would probably be one of them! But I wouldn't pay her

Bingo, If your kids ain't performing with you, put them under pressure with someone else. I don't teach my children (at the moment) because I believe they are a bit too young to start training. But TBH I am not sure that I would jump at the chance to teach them anyway. When they get to an age when they really want to learn, I will start, but to be quite frank, I would rather pay someone else to waste their time on them until that stage. Does that sound harsh?

Big alarm bells are ringing in my head here! Don't like the approach or the content. It goes against everything that karate/budo stands for. Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough? I think it is a Finnish website as far s I can see, that perhaps does not translate too well. I guess we give them the benefit of the doubt, but to be honest, I can save everybody's time really as I know who the best Karate-ka in the world is...?

Indeed, But I guess in a commercial world, you've got to sell yourself any which way you can. As an old traditionalist, I get a bit of a grumpy head on sometimes when I see people trying to "reverse engineer" self defense / MMA techniques into a traditional karate application. It seems everyone has gone a bit MMA mad these days, and if your art doesn't have "kata bunkai" as to how to get out of a reverse applied head lock, then it is lacking somehow. Whats lacking in this instance IMO, are good instructors and good students who understand that they are learning a complete system, not an instant fix self protection program or a sport. Anyway.. sorry...rant over, but hopefully you get my point. Z