Zanshin

And also, as you say, you are young and this is the time to be doing these sort of things. I never said that it wasn't. I'm just a grumpy old man. Well... not that old.

Hi Andrea, First can I say your English is excellent and far better than my Italian any day, so no worries. You are correct when you say that you have to have a reasonably good understanding of Karate and an athletic ability to pull something like this off; you clearly have so well done. We all have our own tastes and look at karate through our own personal prisms, depending on where we are with our training. Quite frankly this sort of thing (kata comps included) is not really my cup of tea, and I see limited value in them. But there you go, we all have our own views. Each to their own

Do you think it is a matter of timing (punching arm, retracting arm and moment of impact), rather than power? Yes, along with correct form and Kime. Power is fine as long as it is generated the correct way. Using force will detract from correct form.

And thats the proplem with Hiki-te really, as it reinforces this if you are not careful. Rotating around the spine is incorrect from a bio-mechanical basis, because whilst your punching hip is traveling forward, the the other is travelling backward at the same rate - which is counter productive and will remove "Kinetic" energy from the punch. You swing a baseball bat from its end; you don't pivot it from the middle. In Physics this is referred to as a "Moment". As Doug says, Hiki-te refers to the simultaneous withdrawing of the non punching arm. As a compound of two Japanese words - “Higi” = elbow and “Te” = hand, it is used to focus on, and emphasise the path that the returning arm takes, by brushing the elbow along the side of the body followed by the hand – (IE via its most direct route). Elbow-Hand! Trouble is, put too much into the Hikite and you risk forcing the opposite hip backward.

I don't think its time wasted... they must have had to work out feasible applications for the moves so there's your bunkai. And being able to deliver them properly requires speed and precision, something which you'd need if you ever had to use your Karate properly. Its only slightly more showy than a set sparring environment. And if it inspires others to start training its a good thing right? "Being able to deliver them properly" thats the key, and I dont think they did, because it was dancing at the end of the day. Sure it was good, they are sharp and clearly well trained, but, they included Jujutsu techniques which, by their own admission, they don't really know. So it is a show. As a Jujutsu-ka, I can assure you most of the throws would not have worked.

What style of Karate is this? I'll be honest, you guys are sharp and you've clearly worked hard so fair play to you, but I hate what that "performance" represents. To me, the time spent "choreographing" routines like this may have been better spent learning / improving your karate from a more "realistic" point of view. Sorry, but I just don't get it

Many styles do not have curriculums as such. Its goups and schools that practice the style that set their own curriculums. Traditionally, "Japanese" Karate styles registered their techniques and kata with the Dai Nippon Butokukai, however this did not necessarily represent a teaching curriculum. Today I guess groups and independent schools are free to set these as long as their students could perform the prescribed techniques / kata.

What stopped you? Actually I was there for a week in Feb just gone, in a tiny village called Bonchurch. Beautiful! A Wado friend of mine has a work gig on the isle every year for a week, and he usually hooks up with a Goju group there. He speaks highly of them, so you obviously have some good karate stock there on your little island.

Hi Eric, Thanks for qualifying that, I knew I wasn't going mad and yes, as I said, it would be wrong to exclude boxing as example of how you should be able to start your punches from this position from an application point of view. With reference to the position of your fist from a "traditional" karate point of view in "Kihon" (yes, thats basics tallgeese) It depends on your target area. But in general, if you are performing "Oi-tsuki" IMO the fist should not be "cranked" up too high. Why? because your shoulder will rise and the technique will have tension in it and be flawed. That said, in Naihanchi kata, the fist is placed upward adjacent to the breast just prior to the Jodan Ura-tsuki. Importantly though the elbow stays in the same position and therefore the shoulders do not rise. Also in Seishan Kata the fist is lowered due to the lower chudan (abdomen) strikes facilitated in this kata. For basics though, to create good body mechanics and muscle memory, I would always suggest aligning the wrist bone against the top of the adjacent hip. As far as the "Hinge point" is concerned this is quite difficult to explain in writing. As I remember, my comment was as a result of a previous post about "Hiki-te" or the pulling back of the non punching arm. My concern here is that thinking of it this way can make the hips rotate around the spine rather than around the opposite hip. The hinge point or "fulcrum" point should always be the opposite hip to the hand with which you are punching. You mention hanmi (half) as a hip position. Personally in Oi-tsuki I would say this was too much, but often it is good to train big when you are a beginner. Over time you will be able to generate the same amount of power using smaller moves / angles. I would say about 30 - 35 deg. But styles vary, you should ask your instructor. Z

Okinawan? Wouldn't that make it Naihanchi??? Ah, its semantics, isn't it?? For my TKD style, I think Choong Moo. exactly only japanese styles use the name Tekki, Naihanchi is the okinawan name and the okinawan kata are much different from the mainland styles Not 100% certain but I think it may only be Shotokan that refer to it as Tekki as Funakoshi is credited with changing the names. Other mainland Japanese styles either don't do the Kata or refer to it as Naihanchi - its original Okinawan / Chinese name. I always believed Wado Ryu Was a Mainland style but Wado still lists it kata in the original Okinawan format I wonder why this is. Because Otsuka Sensei decided that he wanted to use the "On" (Chinese) reading of the Kanji rather than the Japanese "Kun" reading to reflect their origins. But yes Wado is a Mainland Japanese Karate as the wording "Wa" describes.

I really like that analogy - Nice. Also 24 is a mathematical factor of 108 - a very important number in Eastern MA. Could be a coincidence, but I doubt it.

Okinawan? Wouldn't that make it Naihanchi??? Ah, its semantics, isn't it?? For my TKD style, I think Choong Moo. exactly only japanese styles use the name Tekki, Naihanchi is the okinawan name and the okinawan kata are much different from the mainland styles Not 100% certain but I think it may only be Shotokan that refer to it as Tekki as Funakoshi is credited with changing the names. Other mainland Japanese styles either don't do the Kata or refer to it as Naihanchi - its original Okinawan / Chinese name.

I couldn't agree more. For an elite few the WKF provides a platform to compete on a world level, but it means nothing to me in my karate world. To be honest, I have always had mixed feelings about Kata in competition anyway, but if it floats your boat then great. I only mentioned the WKF purely to see whether their "Shitei" system held any frame of reference amoungst Karate-ka of other styles. I am not a staunch advocate TBH. Good choice with Chinto BTW. Blimmin hard though isn't it?

What is it about Choong Moo that connects it to your style? Is it the movement, speed etc.?

Hi moriniuk and welcome to the forum. This is a very interesting question and one that I have had pondered over before. In a nutshell, I don’t think that is about how certain katas can best represent certain styles, but more to do with how each of the Katas are performed and how this varies from style to style. A Wado “Wanshu” contains very similar moves to its Shotokan counterpart and the “embusen” is roughly the same, but the way it is performed (fluidity of movement etc.) is different, as is the purpose in some cases. That said, it is clear that some styles place a higher status of importance on certain katas over others; the core katas of their system as it were. The “Shitei” (compulsory) kata list as recognised by the WKF is as follows: Goju Ryu – Seipai and Saifa Shotokan – Jion and Kunku-Dai Shito Ryu – Seinchin and Bassai – Dai Wado Ryu – Seishan and Chinto To be honest, I don’t know what is behind the reasoning for these choices. From a Wado perspective you could argue that Seishan and Chinto are the two most senior and therefore most important / representative Katas of the style. So does the same logic apply to the other styles? I don’t know. On the other hand the WKF Shitei list has probably been designed around competition performance and what looks the prettiest. I can understand why Sanchin would be considered by most Goju practitioners as fundamental and Wado’s Otsuka went on record many times to say that Naihanchi was a very important kata. – Problem is though from a WKF / performance perspective, they ain’t too exiting. It’s a tricky one, but I am going to stick my neck out and say Chinto as it is light, fast and contains many of the key Wado principles.

Ikigai, I have a feeling you and I are going to get on well here. Like your website BTW I will study it in more detail tomorrow (got to go to bed now), but on initial glance looks impressive. Well, as far as the Wado-ryu application for Niseishi is concerned, I trained with Dr Hakoishi sensei earlier in the year and he had some great things to share, but you have to bear in mind that Wado does not tend to utilise the process of Bunkai in the same way as Okinawan tode does. You are not too far of the mark however with your understanding of the Wado-ryu "Kaisetsu" for these movement which is impressive considering Wado is not your primary style. Do you have some YouTube footage of the Okinawan Kenpo version that you can point me to. Z

Firstly, Hi Ikigai and welcome to the Forum. Good answers btw. I suppose you are correct, the beginning of Niseishi Kata is a bit unique, what is your take on what the first few moves represent?

Slipped that one in there just for you tallgeese my man

And mitigating your responsibility for them.

You will have a ball I am sure. Your ukemi (breakfalling) up to par? Enjoy, and let us know how you get on.

I agree, mastering the depth of a system can take years, or a lifetime, or however you want to say it. I have been sticking with it for 14 years now, so I am not a "one and done" seminar kind of guy. However, I believe that you can make the study of Martial Arts as deep or as shallow as you like. You can get spiritual, or you can stay within the physical aspects. Placing a focus on either one doesn't make one any less or any more of a Martial Artist, in my opinion. One's spiritual expedition is another's focus on survival. I agree, and in particular with your statement about "spiritual expectations vs survival focus". Actually I think that they are mutually intertwined. Although I know what you mean, the "spiritual thing" always sounds a bit naff to me, as I have always been a fighter, but the older I get the more I am enjoying the challenge of trying to unravel the coding behind arts like Wado. With this process I am learning great deal about Wado and myself. Maybe that is akin to a sort of spiritual thing as it is quite an introspective process I guess I think the thing is, its whatever floats your boat!

I checked the OP. Here is his question: I don't see any limitations to strictly Oriental Martial Arts styles. Any system, as far as I can tell. So, including the Boxing standard would fit into the discussion just as well. Bushi, You should be politician lol. That's the best piece of constructive editing of a post I have seen. What gave me the impression that he was referring to a traditional form of karate was: The only schools he refers to are Karate schools. Shotokan and Shito-ryu being traditional schools and Seido being a Kyokushin off shoot (with has its roots in Goju and Shoto). So I think my original comment is valid , but I guess you are right, we are all looking at the question through our own personal prism. Z

I agree with you 100% Bushi. I heard an interesting story with reference to the origins of "karate Ni Sente Nashi": It goes along the lines that as Karate grew in popularity when it was first introduced into mainland Japan (Funakoshi and co), the authorities grew concerned that Karate could get out of hand, particularly following reported incidents of unofficial Karate competition on street corners etc. The KNSN became a sort of Karate "Slogan" in an attempt to clean up its perceived image amongst the Japanese public. You also have to bear in mind that Karate came to Japan from Okinawa and at the time (and still to an extent today), the mainland Japanese looked down their noses at anything Okinawan, particularly when it came to a martial art. After all, Japan already had a very rich heritage of Budo, and this new Okinawan art of Karate would almost certainly lack in the refinement of such arts as Kenjutsu and Jujutsu. Karate was coarse, crass even, so it was an image "up-shift" more than anything else.

I agree, but lets also remember that boxing is a sport governed by a set of rules. Also boxers train to fight in gloves. They condition their bodies so that they can withstand powerful blows to the body (with gloved hands), whilst leaving their arms free to protect their heads, which after all is the most vulnerable part of the body. I don't disagree with anything you have said, but again I think the OP question was about chambering a fist from a "traditional" karate / TKD perspective, not questioning the wrongs and rights of such systems. On a boxing side note, I recently saw a documentary featuring Ricky "the hitman" Hatton, during which the researcher got in the ring with Hatton wearing a coaches body armour (you know the type a vest with about six inches of dense foam padding in the front). Despite wearing this, he was only able to withstand 2 or 3 of Hatton's body blows, before dropping to his knees. Scary stuff. Thing is though, Hatton as a world class professional athlete that trains everyday all day, day in and day out. Some weeks (due to work) I am lucky if I can train for two hours. Despite this I still think my karate would give me an edge over a would be assailant.

I have a bit of a problem with this. Firstly, I am not familiar with the word "bunk" but I get the gist I think. As you can see if you look to left hand margin, I study not only Karate, but also traditional Jujutsu and Kenjustu and I love it, but I do the last two purely to enhance my understanding of Karate. I would not try to blend them into my own system. From a fighting point of view, use what you can I agree, but as Bushi knows, I feel that anyone can be taught to fight (defend them self) fairly easily (just go on a course). Its what depth is behind a system IMO. To me, martial arts means so much more than just fighting. BTW I am no slouch at fighting either... grrr!