Zanshin

That does clarify things a bit, thanks. You and I share some of the same sentiments. One thing that does concern me in your post about Kihon Gumite, being the bedrock of Wado, and the spot at which you really learn to fight, and the fact that it takes 3 years to get to that point. Pehaps I misunderstand, but I think that the Martial Artist should be able to defend himself before this amount of time is up. If I am misunderstanding, then please let me know. Don't be concerned. A student in Wado karate will improve their fighting ability before they start to learn Kihon Gumite in exactly the same way as students in other karate styles do - ie through the application of techniques learned in basics, pair work and Kata etc. Kihon Gumite is probably best looked at as a way to maximise your fighting potential, taking into account the "physical" techniques you have learned up to that point. They basically contain the stratagems of one to one combat (heavily rooted in Kenjutsu) that are "realised" through the on going practice of these kata.

Then you are probably missing the point entirely!

I suppose the complete offer, where the principles could be applied to any number of pottentail scenarios. IE its not so much the techniques you use its the way you employ them. Also a complete system should have more to offer than just "Fighting". Through the study of it, there should be a natural by product of self improvement. I see the point you are making here, but this is along the lines of what I like to refer to as the Eastern Bias. This is soley an implementation concentrated on in most of the Asian and other Far Eastern Martial Arts. Western styles never really concerned themselves with it to the extent that the Oriental styles did/do. Sure, there were some that claimed that the fighters should be gentlemen and such, but the "way of life" aspect of it wasn't a focal point like it is to Eastern styles. Therefore, I don't look at it as a major prerequisite for a system. I think I may have given you the wrong impression. The self improvement I was referring to was really more to do with improving things like your fitness, agility (mental and physical) and reflexes etc. I have been studying traditional Japanese MA for a few years now and to be quite honest I am not that bothered about the “spiritual enlightenment” that I may achieve through training. Some times I think that we in the west misinterpret the “do” or “way” side of martial arts too much along the humanitarian lines. Sure it has its values but it’s not really where I come from, (as it’s not with most of the Japanese Sensei that I train with). To expand on the answer to your question about what makes a comprehensive system, I suppose the best reference I can give is that of Wado Ryu (as it's the style I have studied the most). Otsuka Sensei (founder of Wado Ryu Karate) took the Kihon (Basic Techniques) and Kata (forms) of “Shurite” Karate that he learned from the Okinawan masters and created a Karate-Justu style using Karate techniques within a Jujutsu format as he was previously a high ranking sensei in a Jujutsu called Shindo YoshinRyu. In order to “codefy” his newly created “Jutsu” Otsuka Sensei registered numerous techniques with the “Dai Nippon Butoku Kai” the head office of Japanese MA as it were. Many of these are not practiced in the Wado Dojos today, but the core syllabus still remains namely: • Kihon – Basic techniques • Kata (forms) - Wado only has 15 Katas; Pinans - Nidan, Shodan, Sandan, Yondan Godan and Kushanku, Naihanchi, Seishan, Chinto, Bassai, Wanshu, Niseishi, Rohai, Jion and Jitte. Each kata has specific qualities as to why it’s practiced, Chinto for example is for good balance, Kushanku for building stamina, Naihanchi for stability etc. • Yakusoku Kumite ( usually about 4 head blocks, 4 Middle Blocks and 5-6 kicks depending on school)– Pre arranged Sparing – Taking very basic techniques and practicing against a partner. • Ohyo Kumite – Transition stage. Not done by all Wado clubs, but designed to introduce “application” to more realistic fighting. A stepping stone as it were. • Kihon Gumite – The most important in all Wado-Ryu pair work. Only when students have trained for approx 2-3years are they best to start. These techniques are the bedrock of Wado and teach students the key elements needed to understand how to fight; distance timing, focus, anticipation etc. At a very high level it’s about recognising the exact point when your opponent is at their most vulnerable reading your opponents body language and giving away as little of your intensions as possible. • Idori, Tanto-dori and Tachi-Dori; in some clubs from 3rd Dan and above we study the advanced techniques from the Wado syllabus namely Idori – techniques from kneeling, Tanto-dori knife defense and Tachi-dori – standing defense against the Katana. These are really throwbacks from Wado’s Kodudo heritage of Shindo Yoshin Ryu, but nonetheless are important to the Wado practitioner in order to appreciate principles such as “mai-ai” (combat distance) and “atemi” (vital point striking). All of the above are trained in the earlier Kihon Gumite sessions but made a bit more real when you have a very sharp knife in front of you. You can take individual techniques and elements from any of the above and apply them however you want, but it’s the sum of parts that count and how well the system teaches you to employ them. All of the above may represent an “antique” in terms of martial arts from some peoples perspective, and that’s fine (I am old so I understand), but I am in no doubt that the system produces great fighters, probably the best karate fighters in the world. But then I am biased!

That’s pretty much my take on it as well, and I am not sure whether the majority of people that practice Traditional Karate actually want it to become an Olympic sport anyway. There is a feeling that it is not exactly representative of what Karate has to offer. How do TKD practitioners feel about the whole Olympic thing?

Due to the diversity of Karate, the WKF use the "Shitei" Kata system, in the first few rounds of a Kata competition. I.E. you have to do a mandatory (or Shitei) Kata. Regardless of background you can do whatever Kata you want, however you need to do it in accordance with the correct style. Each of the "Major" styles has their appointed "Shitei" Kata. Namely; Goju Ryu - Seipai and Saifa Shotokan - Jion and Kanku Dai Shito Ryu - Bassai Dai and Seienchin Wado Ryu - Seishan and Chinto What this means is that if you want to perform any of these Katas in the competition, you have to do so in accordance with how the designated style does them. IE if you want to do Bassai you have to do it the Shotokan way etc. After the "Shitei" Kata Round they have the "Tokui” or free Kata. This means that regardless of style, you can do whatever Kata you want. So if I wanted to do the Wado version of Jion - I could. It still has to be done however in the correct way in accordance to the style you chose to do it in. Confused??? And you wonder why it’s not an Olympic Sport!!!!

I suppose the complete offer, where the principles could be applied to any number of pottentail scenarios. IE its not so much the techniques you use its the way you employ them. Also a complete system should have more to offer than just "Fighting". Through the study of it, there should be a natural by product of self improvement. The mistaken belief, that if you practice techniques from wide range of martial arts, (as opposed to studying a well established decent one), you will automatically make your self a better martial artist.

Already done. They have a well established point scoring system for both Kumite (sparing) and Kata (forms). These have all been accepted as the global standard by the IOC. As far as the armour is concerned, it’s your standard light weight mitts in Red and Blue, with matching shin and instep guards. Then you have gum shield and groin protector. No head gear (at the moment). As I understand it, it is recognised as an official sport by the IOC, however it narrowly missed out on becoming a guest sport for the 2012 Olympics here in London.

.No I am not, but in many cases you will get quicker results from a dedicated self defence system than a traditional martial art. And that’s fine, each to their own I suppose. I would question whether anyone, except those with a vast knowledge of martial arts and experience have the ability to successfully create their own style. Improve certain areas of their fighting skills yes, but not create a comprehensive system. But if what you are trying to do is improve for your own sake then there is no problem with what you are saying. It’s when you see people who claim to have created "the most comprehensive fighting system ever" that just make me cringe. Of course you have, and if you train in a comprehensive system under a good instructor, you will achieve exactly that. Which is pretty much what i said in my original post. Don’t get me wrong, I am all for cross training, but for the right reasons i.e.; improvement of techniques, different approaches to training, gaining a better understanding (even if that only means seeing it from a different view point). I understand though that everyone is different and we all have our own training goals. Life would be boring if we were all the same.

Great saying! Zanshin, I can see that if your priority is tournament fighting or just promoting, but if you are going for self-defense, I think finding what works for you from each and using that is the best option. (Some Kajukenbo shining through) Nooo! And tournament and promoting couldn't be further from the point. If self defence is what you are looking for, attend a self defence seminar. It would be far cheaper and quicker than trying to cobble together bits from complete systems. If you try to do that, at the end of the day you will end up with an Irish stew of a martial art.

All good advice given above as usual. Also remember that you are testing for your yellow belt, not a 7th Dan Black belt and as such the examiner will take that on board. That said it’s good to worry about your exam, as it shows you have a passion for your art. To me that means you are 90% there already. The rest is all about sweating your “proverbials” off on the day. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Well done matey. Surley you had some Ohyo and Kihon Gumite in there as well!! What Katas did you have?

I would tend to agree with the majority of other posters here, that 5 years to reach 2nd Kyu does seem a bit excessive. I am all for not rushing your grades, but also you have to have realistic training goals and objectives. Of course, it’s not all about grades, and if what you are learning keeps you enthused then there is no problem. Your Sensei may be a perfectionist and that’s great, just as long as the end result does not lead you to become disillusioned and cause you to give up altogether, which by the sounds of it, it won't. Different sensei, clubs and associations place different values on grading frequency. Sadly many today are driven by the almightily dollar! New belts keep people training and the money coming in. Sad but true.

Whilst I can see a common ground in some of the techniques used in the two arts I practice, I actually try hard not to allow them to blur together as one. For me, cross training in Daito helps me understand some of the more technical Jujutsu elements of Wado, and perhaps allows me to look at Wado from a fresh perspective. The other day for example, at Daito, we were practicing a drill with the Kodachi (short sword) and I was amazed by how similar the movement was to a punching method we have in Wado called Nagashi-tsuki (evasion or flowing punch). I could see how the Wado way of moving could have evolved, given Otsuka Sensei background as a Jujutsu-ka. That said, although the body movement was the same of course the application was different and that’s why I try to keep an open mind. I agree with the others that fighting is fighting at the end of the day, but different arts or systems promote alternative means to the same end. Blurring them together could mean that you are missing the point in both.

The Official Goverining Body as Recognised by the IOC is the WKF (Word Karate Federation). Here is their website which also features all of the rules and regs. https://www.karateworld.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 Hope it helps.

I think there are benefits in cross training in different martial arts i.e. Karate and Judo, however there are pitfalls with training in two different styles of the same art i.e. Shotokan Karate and Goju-Ryu Karate. Your instructor would be correct to advise you of these potential problems; however he/she can’t stop you training wherever you want. I think it’s important that you tell your instructor about your additional training, and ask for their opinion, if only out of courtesy. If you have a good instructor, he should have a long term programme for you (if only a vague one). Training in an art that does not compliment your existing one could throw a spanner in that.

This is a Bulletin Board and the point is to ask your question to the Forum. Why not change the names and places if you are worried about repercussions. It should be worth your while as there are a number of people on this board that have a lot of experience in running successful clubs.

Our Dan gradings are always very open, For all of the reasons mentioned above, but also because spectators are effectively "witnesses" to the standards of the candidates that are passed or failed. This works well, not only to provide future candidates with an idea of the standards that are expected of them, but also to ensure that standard of the test itself will hold up to external scrutiny (ie national and international level comparison).

I study Wado-Ryu.

Brilliant matey good find. Although I have never trained in anything other than a white dogi, I must admit that when I went to Seni a few years back the "American Guy" out of enter the dragon was there, signing books (forget his name, you know the one you saw on the golf course at the beginning). Anyway, the prize draw was to win the legendary yellow Gi. (with short arms). I so wanted that! Sadly it was not to be. Never mind!!

I would not pay to much attention to the colour of someones Dogi. I would be looking at his or her form and how well they moved!! It is fun though looking at all of the styles available. I would love to train in a black dogi even for just one day. My sensei however is more pre-occupied with combat than sartorial elegance. Boring git really, although I would never say that to his face.

Brilliant "SIDESNAPKICK" I wish I had a grandad like you. You Rock

Thanks for clarifying that. That sounds like a great idea. I heard something similar with a Karate association in the UK. Not 2 tests as such, but the fact that they do not award their Dan grade certificates until six months after the examination. Candidates know whether they have passed or failed on the day, but have to complete 6 months of regular training after, before they are given their certificates. Very good idea me thinks.

I think it is "theoretically" possible to do it in our association in approx 4 years, but I have never known anyone to actually do that. Most take about 6-7 years of regular un-interrupted training. I took about 11 years (slow learner!!). After that, my Dan grading have been at between 5 and 6 year intervals. I think that in most Karate dojos Sandan (3rd Dan) is considered the first "senior grade", and I think that it is generally accepted that the minimum period of training for this should be between 15-20 years.

Just out of interest, what does the "Decided" bit out of 3rd Dan Decided mean. Am I being thick?

Go for it big man. I am sure you will be fine. Remember dont just pass, be the best there. All the best.