John G

Azmyth, stl_karateka summed up the competing aspect much the same as have had I. With regard to the other questions: 1. black striped belts seperating the traditional solid color belts to add extra rank Find out if your club is a member of ITF or just using the ITF tul/form/pattern set. ITF are very clear on the system of rank Students must grade through the following belts in the following order: white belt given to the beginner (10th gup) white belt yellow tags (9th gup) yellow belt (8th gup) yellow belt green tags (7th gup) green belt (6th gup) green belt blue tags (5th gup) blue belt (4th gup)) blue belt red tags (3rd gup) red belt (2nd gup) red belt black tags (1st gup) through to Black Belt (1st dan/degree). Somethings wrong if your club is going outside this system, that is unless your club is not affiliated with ITF. 2. 20 minutes of class is used stretching This is normal along with a 5 - 10 min cool down stretching at the end of the class. This is assuming classes are 1 1/2 hrs+ long. 3. no seperation between kids and adult classes, meaning 5 year olds are in my class This can be a pain in the butt, I guess it depends on class size among other factors. 4. There are also alot of ranks in my classes who I think do not have the material down well enough to have the rank. With respect, its up to the instructor to make that decision not you. Is your club a MCdojo? You can only be the judge of that, go with your gut instinct. Respectfully,

JLee, Firstly welcome to the forums When selecting an Martial Art or Martial Sport, you really need to make a list of what you want to achieve, inasmuch as short (1-3 yrs), medium (3-15 yrs) and long term (15+ yrs) goals. Once you have a list of what you want to achieve we may be able to offer some advice. You would be ill advised to base your decision purely on watching a few videos. Even though a club is affiliated with an association / federation it doesn't necessarily mean that what you see in a promotional video is what you are going to be taught. It depends on the level of experience, teaching skills and support the instructor has. We can only advise, each one of us has our own reasons for being a part of a particular Martial Art/Sport. Two students from the same club wont always give you the same answer when asked questions about the their art. Its an individual journey. Do the research and go look for yourself, find a Martial Art (and it doesn't have to be Korean) that suits your needs best. Respectfully,

Ah. so you've met the Ms's Boy am I going to fry if she ever reads this forum.. Sorry Hun.. They made me do it..

Shorinryu Sensei, prior to my current bike I had the XS1100 RH Special (1981) shaft drive jobby. Weighed a ton, great in a straight line or on gravel but hated corners at speed, loved that girl, then the Ms's and kids came along and I did the right thing and sold it . Come to think of it (in a purely male chauvinistic way and hopping the one who should be obeyed never reads this) the Ms's now kind of reminds me a little of that bike

Yep, and that's only after the first pub thank goodness I quit drinking a few years back, my poor old bike would be looking a lot worse. Riding in Australia can sometimes be a real pain in the A$$, literally. Everything is just so far apart (especially on the west coast). Over here the only two thing you really have to look out for is Mr Policeman and kangaroos. Besides that, its a blast. With the exception of jumping out of planes (yet to do that) nothing compares to the buzz you get riding a bike.

1985 Kwaka GPZ900R, bit worse for wear, but then so am I. Notice how after awhile owners start to look like their bikes

Aussie, Aussie, Aussie....

koreauechi, One of our key philosophies is "Be content with what you have in money and position but never in skills." I feel the debate on the colour or our uniforms isn't trivial, as its serves as a reminder that as humans we like to stand out from the bunch, and sometimes, we value materialistic symbolism (colour, cut, status of the uniform) over the meaning and intent behind the symbol (uniqueness, cultural development, humility and mutual respect). Regardless of what or how we dress we must continually remind ourselves why we choose to do what we do and as you stated not loose focus. BTW. Wasn't Santa Claus's suit originally green? MichiganTKD, I understand more than most why you are so passionate about white uniforms, however not all arts attach such philosophical views to there training uniform as we do. I guess we have to cut the barbarians a bit of slack. Respectfully,

Just to add fuel to the fire here is what General Choi has written with regard to our practice sute (Do Bok) "... We assign names to people and objects in order to distinguish between different individuals, between objects with different properties etc. We know immediately that "Kim Sun Dal" is not the same person as "Timothy Smith", that "flora" is distinct from "fauna", that "rock" and a "pillow" do not have identical characteristics. The naming of names is a classification process by which we impose order on the universe. In the absence of names, the world would be chaotic and progress would be impossible. Our do boks serve a similar purpose. They reveal our occupation and our rank, identifying us as persons engaged in a certain kind of activity. Social order would be difficult to maintain without systemized forms of clothing. Because of names, football can be clearly distinguished from baseball, Taekwon-Do from Judo. Similarly, their respective uniforms allow us to distinguish a judge from a criminal, a general from a private soldier. When we wear a uniform, we accept a certain role in society and we are obliged to behave accordingly. Our martial art was given the name "Taekwon-Do" to distinguish its technique, philosophical system, spiritual foundation and rules of competition from other Oriental martial arts. We have a uniform unique to Taekwon-Do for the same reason. The International Taekwon-Do Federation introduced this do bok in 1982. It is the product of many years of research and development. This new do bok retains the aspects of the traditional do bok while representing a new age in terms of design. It eliminates many of the inconveniences associated with other martial arts uniforms. It will not, for instance, become undone during practice or tournament. It has also put an end to the dishonest practice of relying on starched material to create an artificial sound. The do bok is considered a primary necessity in both training and tournament for the following reasons: The wearing of the do bok should instill pride in the student as a practitioner of Taekwon-Do. It identifies the degree of skill and cultural education in Taekwon-Do that the individual has attained. The style of the do bok is symbolic of Taekwon-Do heritage and tradition. Grade and degree changes indicated by belt color create incentive while simultaneously preserving humility. The do bok is extremely practical and healthy. The official do bok distinguishes orthodox Taekwon-Do from its imitators. The do bok consists of a shirt, pants and belt made of synthetic material, detron mixed with cotton. This material is a vast improvement over standard cotton in that it is more durable and flexible. The shirt and pants must be white in color to symbolize the traditional color of the Korean costume. Superfluous frills, piping, lettering and designs are not permissible. It is very important for the student to keep his do bok clean at all times, wear it correctly and treat it with the respect he owes to his art. Black piping around the edge of the shirt is worn only by the black belt holder. The piping is three centimeters in width and is symbolic of the royal family and members of aristocratic houses during the Koguryo, Baekje, and Silla Dynasties. An international instructor is distinguished by black stripes three centimeters wide on both sides of the shirt and pants. ..." So is my art better than your art because of our traditional (1982) uniform (the one without the V neck) ... I think not. Respectfully,

Koreauechi, I tend to agree, who cares what you wear as long as you have quality training. Personal choice I guess. Respectfully,

Far too many things to consider, for instance: style (as already mentioned), location, age, gender, physical build, stamina, experience, motivation, clothing etc… Somehow I doubt that two naked identical twins, masters at their chosen art, either in a phone booth or on a playing field, would be going hell for leather just to prove whose art is better. …

Welcome to the forums trekmann. Aussie, Aussie, Aussie...

In ITF the head is a valid target for points using hands or feet.. Respectfully,

If all we did was tournament spar, practitioners from both codes (ITF/WTF) would be in trouble. Bad habits can form from an over reliance on just sparing technique, as you rightly point out. Just think, out of the 3200+ techniques taught in ITF, one would only use a handful (or should I say legful) during tournament sparing. This is probably one of the reasons why General Choi and Master Choi never taught sparing technique at IIS courses (well at least none of the ones I attended). Respectfully,

The Saint, with the greatest of respect you can see from my tag line I also train in ITF Taekwon-do, and can state from experience that tournament sparring regardless of federation (ITF/WTF) is only a game of tag, and doesn’t necessarily reflect the self-defence aspects of each organisation. As you know common misconceptions about our art are sometimes based by those who critique our art based upon what they see at a tournament. The same could be said for WTF clubs. Respectfully, John G Jarrett

I doubt that WTF will remain “headless” for much longer as it’s such a large federation. It may split (like ITF) as those in power jostle for the top position, but hopefully not. Respectfully,

There are three "official" ITFs, two in Vienna ITF-V and ITF-NK and one in Canada ITF-C. The politics and intrigue behind the art has at times been addictive to the point where I was spending more time focusing on the hypocrites and castle builders rather than practicing the art. Therefore I choose not to be drawn into who’s right and who’s wrong or who should head ITF. Besides, this thred is about WTF not ITF. Respectfully,

ITF Headquarters (AKA ITF-V), President Master Trân Triêu Quân http://www.tkd-itf.org/home.shtml ITF Headquarters (AKA ITF-C), President Master Choi Jung Hwa http://www.itf-admin.com/main.htm ITF Headquarters (AKA ITF-NK), President Mr. Chang Ung http://www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com/ And the "non-political" International Ch'ang-Hon Taekwon-Do Federation (ICTF) http://www.ictf-web.com/main.html ...

Who would have thought that such a simple topic could turn so ugly... Tone it down a bit before big brother/sister steps in and cans it. Where do you get these gems from ninjanuse, great insite. ...

Great read RF_Brown, its always refreshing to get another perspective on history. Respectfully,

I have no doubt that the Chung Do Kwan lay claim to have originated the term "Tae Kwon Do" please read on. The General writes: “At the end of 1950 I had taken over the Chung-Do-Kwan in Dong-Rae at the wish of its owner, Won-Gook Lee, witnessed by his apprentice, Deok-Sung Sohng. Chun-Do Kwan under my control had begun to serve as a base for spreading Taekwon-Do to civilians all over the country. Since as a soldier I was prohibited from owning any private enterprise, Deok-Sung Sohng had been managing the Chung-Do-Kwan under his name, and I had been approving major issues, and placing my stamp on every degree certificate as honorary director” Apparently Dang-Soo-Do/Gong-Soo-Do was taught to the army and the civilians through the various Kwans of the day. Dang-Soo-Do/Gong-Soo-Do is also known as Japanese Karate (Kong-Soo/ Tahng-Soo). The General writes: “At first I founded the Oh-Do Kwan to speed up training instructors of Dang-Soo-Do to distribute it to the entire army, which came to serve as the womb of the International Taekwon-Do Federation. Although is was still being called in Korean Dang-Soo-Do, yet significant parts of the movement had been improved. Also with the help of Tae-Hee-Nahm, completing the Hwa-Rang and Choong-Moo Hyung (Tul), I developed the basis of Taekwon-Do.” Reading this one gets the impression that General Choi used the Chung-Do-Kwan and the Oh-Do Kwan to spread his modified version Dang-Soo-Do from 1950 onward. In the spring of 1955 the term Tae Kwon Do was coined by General Choi, as he had the backing of the Chung-Do-Kwan and the Oh-Do Kwan and the fact that he was a Major-General with influence at the time, I feel the rest of the Kwan leadership would have had little choice but to buckle under and agree with the name change. After which General Choi orders the Chung-Do-Kwan and the Oh-Do Kwan to change their names to Tae Kwon Do. Respectfully,

General Choi in his memoirs "Taekwon-Do and I" volume 2 pages 163-164 General Choi states that early fall of 1968 "Jhoon-Rhee was the first" of many Korean instructors in America he gave private lessons to. He states "Fortunately, most of them threw away the Karate techniques that they had practised for many years to start to teach Taekwon-Do, and it was a revolutionary experiance for them" So was Jhoon-Rhee teaching Karate prior to 1968? Hope this Helps... Respectfully,

I can see there is some understandable confusion with regard to sine wave motion and stances. Let me first state that ITF Taekwon-do doesn’t have a front stance (Zenkutsu dachi?), the closest we have to that stance is a walking stance. Our walking stance (Gunnun Sogi) is described as such: This is a strong stance for front and rear, both in attack and defence. 1) Move one foot to either the front or the rear at a distance of 1.5 shoulder widths between the big toes and 1 shoulder width apart from the centre of each instep. 2) Bend the front leg until the knee cap forms a vertical line with the heel, extending the opposite leg fully 3) Body weight even on both feet 4) Keep the toes of the front foot pointing forward, the opposite foot 25 degrees outward. 5) Tense the muscles of the feet with the feeling of pulling them toward each other Note that the length of our walking stance is only 1.5 shoulder widths long, and the front knee is inline with the front heel (not the front toe) and that the centre of gravity is between the insteps with a 50/50 weight distribution. I have been lead to believe that most of our stances have been shortened (made taller) to accommodate for a wider range of kicks and to lessen the time between transitions. The problem with taller stances is that you loose a degree of stability, that stability is gained back through sine motion. I’m not a bio-mechanical engineer, and therefore can’t state unequivocally that sine motion with taller stances generate the same power at the moment of contact as those from a lower stance and lower centre of gravity. What I can say is those who practice current ITF tuls without sine motion are doing themselves a disservice and should consider using the lower stance set and tuls pre sine wave motion. Our transition is exactly the same except we start to rise up from the beginning of the transition, peak (an inch or so depending on persons height) mid transition when both legs are bent and drop back to the original stance height at the end of the transition. I guess it would be from a front or lower stances, Horses for courses. Do I detect a bit of TKD cynicism Respectfully,

Interestingly enough, some time back I was walking past a karate dojo (I think it was goju-rue??) and decided to take a look see. The instructor had some of his students with broom poles on their shoulders (arms over each end of the pole). They had to move forward without the pole moving up and down (sine motion) or from side to side. Horses for courses I guess. One must remember that Taekwon-do (ITF) has assimilated techniques from other arts. “Sine motion” has two purposes, firstly, the downward motion is the same kind of 'sinking' technique many Chinese styles do (dragon, southern wing chun etc), the idea being lowering your body at the moment of contact using gravity to result in a solid stance during the execution of the technique. The second and least taught purpose of “sine motion” in conjunction with correct breathing technique is found when executing slow motion movements within the tul’s (e.g. pressing blocks, flat finger tip thrust) in the form of internal organ massage (also borrowed/stolen from Chinese styles Tai Chi and Nei chai etc.) Depending on what you do (breaking, tul’s, sparring, SD) the amount of sine motion varies. I was taught that with the exception of tul’s and sparring the extent between the up and down peaks for the average sized person (5’ 10”) shouldn’t be more than one inch. As sparring is just a game of tag there is no reason to generate power, therefore sine motion during sparing is reduced. During tul’s (especially during tournament) the sine motion is sometimes over exadurated for aesthetic purposes, this is what a lot of non ITF people watch and misinterpreted as sine motion. I guess I’m just a hip twisty, bouncy practitioner. Just my two cents worth. Respectfully,

Are you planning to take up TKD or just Trolling? Grow up...