mantis.style

ooh... That's another thing I don't understand. To me Wing Chun isn't complex at all. In fact, everything is pretty simple and straight forward. The difficult bit is getting it right because at times, the structure has to be near perfect or else it collapses. That's why it bothers me when people try to make it out to be some amazingly life changing thing that only if you're lucky and a blue moon falls on the fifth month and a special teacher appears to you that you will get to learn. Well, actually no, it's supposed to be a simple thing that anyone can learn and anyone can get good if they practice properly. Of course, it doesn't help that there are things in wing chun that are only understandable in the context of the culture and perhaps that is where I have benefitted, being Chinese and understanding the reasons for some things more than most can explain to a western guy.

That might not have been the best way to say it as it doesn't fit 100% to what I meant but here goes. Well..... The Theory of wing chun is that you don't end up on the ground. The assumption is that if your wing chun is good, you won't end up on the ground. In this respect, the training is very specific and it doesn't a) teach you how to get to the ground b) recover from the ground c) grapple. If you try to incorporate into wing chun those elements, I can see it only corrupting the wing chun. That isn't to say that it isn't a good idea to learn something for the ground game, far from it; just that I don't believe it is possible to simply mix something into it and keep it "pure" as it were. It's for the same reason why you can't simply mix TKD into it. If you're kicking TKD style, it isn't wing chun. If you are going to the ground, it isn't wing chun. In the context of this discussion, what you end up doing isn't a mix of tkd, wing chun, and aikijujutsu as a whole. It is wing chun then tkd then aikijujtsu. Not sure if that is the best explaination of what I mean. It could also be my misunderstanding of what was meant originally by "mix three styles".

It only affects you if you let it. And let's be honest here, there are only maybe 3 schools that bicker between themselves. When's the last time you heard a proper Yuen Kay Shan student, or a Pan Nam student, or a Gee Shim student or even Jiu Wan or Lee Shing or Wong Shun Leung student take part in any of that? More often than not, it's the students that are the worst offenders. Admittedly, if th school doesn't push a certain "belief" it won't happen but still, I know some guys from one of the bickering schools that are pretty much "pfft, who cares" type of person.

The point that not everyone has been in a situation where they had to test the difference between what they say and what they do, is also valid.

Nope. Not all wing chun comes from Yip Man. I have learnt from 3 schools, one of which was a branch off before Yip Man and one that was a contemporary of Yip Man as well as the more usual Yip Man line schools.

I'm not offended. If anything, to me, the less people know about wing chun, the better for me. I have to say though that I find this all a bit fascinating. As someone who has spent more than a few years in this, I would say that Wing Chun will not work with TKD - too many structural differences. I would also say that Wing Chun doesn't need Aikijujutsu. Chin-Na can be used freely from most aspects of wing chun, especially at secondary trapping stages and the way Wing Chun works, you don't need to go to the ground. Of course, it is always good to cover more bases but you only mention locks and throws which wing chun has enough of its own, even without taking specialised Chin-Na classes.

I've never shuffled from style to style. When I started, it was in some non-school generic longfist style that wasn't what I was looking for. Somewhere along the line I was introduced to a wing chun guy and I've been hooked ever since. Since then I've moved on to other styles but even then I've stuck to styles that are related to wing chun in some way, if anything to learn more about wing chun itself.

I'm not sure I'm happy with the fact that you only mention fast hands with wing chun. I'm also confused by the choice of "traditional" TKD. After all, isn't traditional tkd, shotokan?

I think this age debate is pretty irrelevent to this initial discussion. Training is training. The further you are, the more things you have to practice in less time. Naturally, your training will be different as you progress and learn more and get better at some things. An imaginary threshold like a belt rank doesn't have any bearing on how you train other than suggest the amount of things you should know.

Nightowl: I'm not sure how to respond to your post. On the one hand, I am aware that Tai Chi that is seen in the public eye is mostly of the amr waving, "live for a hundred years" type, I also know that in practice, Tai Chi is very similar to things like White Crane, Mantis, Wing Chun and even Hung kuen. You might have noticed that I have mentioned before that I have trained mainly in Wing Chun but have also had some in depth experience (2+ years) in White Crane, some cross training with old southern Dragon style, Tai Chi and most recently, Southern Mantis. My choice of styles is purely because they are of similar origins, in the same locality and of roughly the same time period. Tai Chi stands alone but even then, the application of it is not that different to how some Wing Chun is applied and it is very similar to some White Crane. The thing with Tai Chi is that the forms are still very old school. If I were to show you my main training form, you'd be hard pressed to see what might be a block because a lot of the form is to do with how to move instead of what to do. The most basic type of block is a simple outward/inward sweeping motion that is pretty much the same as a low bong sau or a crossing gate tan sau that opens to biu sau. It's not as flowery or as complicated as you might think. You are also right though, to say that most of Tai Chi that is taught today is probably the 32(?) step Modern Wushu form. Search out something like traditional Wudang, Yang or Chen and you'll find something very different. You've got to be careful when you say "chang quen" because it is at the same time, a name of an actual style (Long Fist) as well as a name to describe a type of style. Typically Long Fist is taught as a general basic form and training would include other forms considered basic training like 12 Road (4 door) Tan Tui and Chin-Na and other training exercises like small plum blossom. Long Fist does have one fault though. At the beginning, you are taught to do things exactly as you do it in the form. If you block with a you will follow with b etc etc. Naturally, as you learn more, you will have more things that you can follow with but this type of training isn't very intuitive and can sometimes leave you without an answer with something until you learn a new form. It isn't as "modular" as Wing Chun, Mantis, White Crane or even Tai Chi where even the most basic things can be enough. Of course, this is based on my limited (not quite a year) of training.

Perhaps the biggest problem that exists in Chinese Martial Arts training is that the training is mostly ignorant of other martial arts. A wing chun student will pretty much train with and against other wing chun people. Put them against a boxer/karateka/kickboxer who moves, hits and takes hits differently and things begin to become unstuck.

Some modern schools have adopted a sort of grading, usually using the forms as a reference, which is more or less how your progress was traditionally marked. The old chinese school system has no rank as such, instead everyone is referenced by a family title depending on your entry to the school and how other people are "related" to you via your SiFu. Generally, speaking the forms are organised to be taught in a successive way and do not actually have a rank attached to them. "seniority" in a school is determined by your age in the school which isn't always an indicator of how good you are. By the same token, knowing more doesn't always mean you are the better fighter either. Admittedly, I was slightly shy with the total truth. I've recently started training at a club where they do have an adopted ranking system. In the one that I have trained with continuously the longest, they didn't.

Block with the fist?

Not sure about that. Traditionally, the Chinese styles do not have belts, tests or rankings. Even now, After what is coming up to 14 years, I do not have a belt, a rank and have never tested.

What kind of sparring are you talking about?