Tempest

I don't know about batting for the other team, but I believe if he had walked in to a BJJ school or a decent Judo school and did what he did in the video he would be lucky if ALL they did was feed him his teeth. Seriously though, what I saw in the video was an assault, not an overwhelmingly skilled one, but somewhat skilled and athletic, carried out against someone who had no idea how to defend themselves. Now, this is not REALLY a problem if you are not trying to tell people that you can teach them self defense, THEN it is a problem.

Welcome back.

Pretty much this. I believe I said it earlier, I don't know everything about martial arts, heck, I don't even know a lot, but the things I know I can do, there is no doubt in my mind that I absolutely CAN do them, because I HAVE done them. I have trained in Karate, and in TKD and other traditional martial arts, and the simple reason why I cannot keep with them is unrealistic training methods. You do not train to punch by punching to miss, and you CANNOT train to grapple unless the person you are grappling with resisting opponents

See, I need to start being more direct. Like this guy... Seriously though, as a martial artist I cannot condone something that could be considered felony assault, especially when it is not even a good technical demo.

Ok, just to be clear, Emin is the guy on top beating the other guy to a pulp correct? If so, since I didn't see all of the seminar, and am unaware of the surrounding politics, I am only able to judge based on what I saw. What I saw was some competitive but rudimentary Judo, followed by some sort of strikes on the ground that seemed more designed to humiliate and annoy than injure. I would REALLY hope that, based on what you have described as the surrounding circumstances, this did not take place in the US, because if it did then then Emin risked going to jail, or at the least facing a lawsuit. There can be no claim of self defense, and if William, I guess is the other guy, wants to push it there really cannot be a claim of mutual combat as based on what I saw he crossed a long distance and attacked. If this was not a pre-arranged meetup between the 2 men, such as a sporting or sparring context, then it looks an awful lot like a crime.

It wasn't the fact that it was real that makes it look amateurish, it is the fact that the guy doing the attacking used a simple technique, executed... ok, against a guy who clearly had no clue how to keep his balance in a fight, and was probably caught by surprise to boot, took him to the ground and then did some weak, sorta kinda ground and pound from an actually pretty loose side control. Once again, the guy on the bottom had not a clue what to do. It wasn't a matter of being past his prime, he just layed there and got beat up with no clue how to intelligently resist.

Ok, so I didn't want to say anything until I saw the fight, because I don't know anything about CMA, but now that I have seen it, in HD, at half speed and everything, it looks like a guy who could be one of our competitive green-belts just beating the snot out of some other guy. who has no idea how to get out of the situation he finds himself in. If the situation is one where the guy on the bottom was trying to make claims as to the fighting applicability of whatever it was that he did, then I would say that those claims have been effectively debunked, but other than that, it really looks like a green belt in Judo just got mad at this guy and beat the snot out of him.

Thank you. I am not sure how I rated this, but thank you.

It doesn't? Where do you draw the line as to who is a martial artist? Peter Seisenbacher competed at the olympics 3 times and won 2 gold medals, back to back in '84 and '88. He also won a world title, and a european title and is now a very successful coach and generally has had a successful life in the martial That being said, he basically did 1 throw most of the time in competition. He had his hammer, and it worked for him. If someone has a tool, is able to use it in a variety of circumstances, and is successful, who are we to say that they are not a martial artist?

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ Imma just leave this RIIIGHT here.... Mostly because I am a big fan of Marc's work, but also because this site is a godsend to someone just starting out in self defense.

Actually, leverage and other mechanical principles are the foundation of effective fighting technique. ESPECIALLY if you are going to come to grips with someone, but even a strike is trying to use, leverage, momentum, structure to deliver force to target. Let me ask you a question; What is a better analogy for martial arts if mechanics doesn't work for you? Analogy is the primary means by which english speakers communicate complex subjects to non-members of our immediate tribe. We MUST have an analogy to work from, so if this one doesn't do it for you, what would be better?

See, I was trying not be quite this direct with it, but yeah, really what he said ^. Even if you learn the techniques, you really cannot gain the skill to apply them without actually doing it.

Before I recommend specific videos, I will actually go old school on you and recommend a book. https://www.beginningbjj.com/BJJ%20Roadmap%201.3.pdf It is a free 35 page book that covers an overview of BJJ, positional heirarchy and explains some of why grapplers think the way they do. In my opinion it is a great resource to start with. Once you are familiar with that, then it becomes a matter of exploring each position, including standing and clinch work, for those survival strategies and escapes that I mentioned. For example, Lesson 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIHbtNS0ZX8 Escaping the mount.

The sprawl, though, is a wrestling move. It is very effective at preventing takedowns. How much of your body is contacting the ground depends largely on the intensity and skill of the person trying to take you down. For example, if some guy who has at best maybe had an hour of wrestling tries to shoot a half-assed double leg, I might not even REALLY sprawl, I might just drop my center and push his head down. But, if I am defending a double leg from, for example Daniel Cormier, you can bet the front of my hips are going to hit the ground as anything less will result in him either powering through or adjusting the angle and picking up an ankle or single leg. Grappling and counter-wrestling is also a matter of understanding what you are up against. MOST of the top MMA fighters in the world are top quality stand-up fighters and strikers, but the REASON they can be successful at what they do is they are good enough wrestlers to not get taken down, or if they are taken down to explode to their feet again quickly. Along with the sprawl, I would work the technical stand up, the combat base, and the standard escapes and survival strategies from all ground positions as well gripping, pummeling and clinching. These are a few of the "counter grappling" strategies that I KNOW work, but I don't know anywhere to learn them that doesn't teach a grappling art.

Depends on what you mean by anti-grappling? I had someone try to hit me in the nuts once when I was trying to demonstrate that the mount was a superior position because the person on the bottom cannot effectively strike from there. I was not pleased, they did not escape, and they should count their blessings that I ONLY applied an arm bar. I am usually sceptical of techniques that people claim are "not sport" because usually it means that it won't pass the test that I described above. Realistically, any technique that is based on sound physiological principals CAN work, but whether it usually WILL, that is, is it a high percentage move against a trained, intelligently resisting opponent, that is an altogether different thing.

Ok it is possible to learn some anti-grappling techniques, but the thing that makes grapplers dangerous is not the techniques, it is the training methodology and practice. I am not an expert in all, or even most, areas of martial arts, but the things that I can do, I KNOW I can do them under the most stressful of conditions because I have done them at full speed against an INTELLIGENTLY resisting opponent that knew the methods I was going to use and still couldn't stop me. THAT is the key component that makes grappling effective. If you have an anti-grappling strategy that passes that test, then do that, but I have never SEEN an anti grappling strategy work, that was not based on knowledge of a grappling system. All of that being said, jiujitsu is not necessarily the be-all, end-all of grappling. Lots of VERY good catch wrestlers, Judo players, Sambo guys, and olympic style wrestlers. And if you are in the US, we have a very strong tradition of high-school/collegiate folk wrestling here.

Welcome

Great topic. You may want to consider looking in to some HEMA sources. I think this is a good link to start with. https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/books-on-the-cateran-system/ Chris is kind of a strange cat, but a good author an a fine scottish swordsman. I would, for more martial descriptions of actions, also look at Captain Alfred Hutton's Cold Steel. It is a late period saber manual, but if you want to know what a brutal, combat ready system that can be taught to troops quickly looks like, then that is a good example. Another good source is The Art of Defence on Foot: With the Broad Sword and Sabre; Adapted Also for the Spadroon, Or Cut and Thrust Sword by Roworth and Taylor. and A Treatise on the Useful Art of Self-Defence by Captain Godfrey These should get you started and well on your way to understanding Celtic fighting systems.

I try to do this...but my flow is limited. Some people "flow" from a fire hose. Mine is a trickle from a leaky faucet...A leaky faucet is fine as long as you keep leaking. Ever leave a leaky faucet for a month? See how much your water bill is after that.I would posit that having a few techniques and a really good understanding of position is more important than having a lot of tricks up your sleeve. Most beginners spar too much, don't drill enough and always want to learn a new technique. Most advanced players drill a lot, spar regularly but not a lot, and usually wind up using the stuff they learned as a white belt more than anything else.

Sure! I mean I think for the most part we're in agreement here, it just becomes a matter of degree. It's of no use to get a takedown if ignoring lands you in a guillotine for example. Likewise to only attempt a takedown when you're absolutely sure it lands in a great position greatly limits your options. Some of us are a little to the left and some of use are a little to the right Certainly! I can agree with this. I will also add that if you are doing drills, drill both. Do some combinations and also do some reps of just your go to throw.

Mine too sir, mine too.I think that we are both taking different roads up the same mountain here. I was, I don't remember how old for sure but I was in grade 5 in the US if that helps, walking home with my younger sister, when a couple of young boys decided that me and most especially her, would be great targets for assault and perhaps worse, I never got the chance to find out. I told my sister to run and I turned and fought. Fast forward a few years and by the time I am 16, I am a bouncer and doorman in an all night facility, throwing drunk and high grown men out. I still remember the night we all got in to the brawl in the parking lot and the local PD showed up with a tactical team. BTW, CS spray STINGS... and yes knives SUCK. Then, at 18 the woman that I thought I loved died and I realized that if I didn't make some different choices, I was going to end up the same so I went to college, started working white collar jobs, and these days do martial arts for fun, fitness, and historical research. I understand violence, grew up in a violent place and with sometimes violent people, but thanks to my own life choices, it has been more than 7 years since I have had to use force in a non-controlled environment. I definitely respect where you are coming from, and I understand why you might want to make a different choice than me, I just want to make sure that there are different perspectives in the conversation.

This begs the question then, have you ever trained in Judo or Greco Roman wrestling?Because in those systems, controlling how and where your opponent lands is paramount to what you do, and I wonder whether or not it would be valuable to many practitioners of BJJ to incorporate a strong takedown game so that they don't have to fight as hard for a dominant position. Indeed I do train Judo and I'm quite successful with it- particularly (and ironically I suppose?) in no gi. The theory sounds good- the idea that you're going to control your opponent, but the reality is different. One must control their opponent virtually 100% to be able to completely dictate whether they end up in guard, half, or cross side. Many takedowns are accomplished with much less than 100% control- you just take whats given your way. This is even exhibited in Judo itself when you see judoka throw and land in a kesa gatami (headlock) position- one that's not particularly effective at finishing, but only at pinning. If one had a choice, landing with an underhook is much more desirable. You also take into account the concept of "overthrowing" your opponent as it happens in judo. Both of these things occur precisely because one doesn't have complete control of their opponent. To draw an analogy, its like someone that wants to pass the guard straight to full mount. Can it be done? Sure. Is it practical? Well, lots have done it so sure. On the other hand, is it a good strategy? This is where is it not. There are plenty of other opportunities to pass to the cross side when a full mount is not possible. You allow yourself to be successful "more often" if that makes sense. One is asking for too much if you want to only pass to full mount, and one is asking for too much only asking to have absolute control when they throw. In short, I just want the takedown period. I don't really care which position we end up in so long as I've landed a takedown. Whatever position you land in well, that's why we've got jiu jitsu. Fair enough, but at the club where I practiced for a long time there were a large number of skilled competitors and they seemed pretty universal about controlling Uke as he is falling, for 2 reasons. 1. It is in the spirit of Judo to have mutual benefit and welfare, so when you throw someone, you are somewhat responsible for how they land unless they slip your control and spin out of a throw. 2. Our head coach is well known as a referee, so he always stressed the parts of an Ippon. Largely on the back, with force, speed, and CONTROL. A loss of control can, not always does, but can result in a lower score for the throw and unneeded groundwork. Groundwork is fun, but if you have 6-8 matches that day, you do not want to gas out in the first one.

Never been shot. That is the only thing on your list of experiences I don't share. My father is a former Marine. I still remember the first time I got jumped on my way home from school. Violence hasn't gone away from the world, and I wouldn't be so quick to assume that others don't understand you just because they don't necessarily agree. The fact that your still breathing means that your training has flaws, so does mine, I just prefer the ones that I can see and control. Protective gear means that I can deal with the realities of aggression, adrenal stress response, and full contact fighting, and still go to work at my office in the morning. My main "self defense" these days is to refrain from violent behavior and avoid violent people. If someone brings drama, violence, or trouble in to my life, they are not my friend or my family regardless of blood. I practice martial arts for fun, fitness, and historical research. Self defense is an entirely separate field of study that only overlaps with MA at a few points.

See, and I have been hit by a boxer before. With boxing gloves on. I didn't have any trouble feeling it or knowing that I was hit. I have also been hit by a crow bar, and a bat. I guarantee you that if you can soak damage well enough to not know you have been hit by a well practiced boxer, then I have a deal for you. Pays 6-7 figures a year. May require some contact. Apply at your local boxing gym. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I have heard this sort of argument before and it does not hold any more water now than it did then. I will reiterate, all training has flaws, that is why it is called training and not "combat" or "assault". You say protective gear is not for you. Do you wear a cup when you spar?

This begs the question then, have you ever trained in Judo or Greco Roman wrestling?Because in those systems, controlling how and where your opponent lands is paramount to what you do, and I wonder whether or not it would be valuable to many practitioners of BJJ to incorporate a strong takedown game so that they don't have to fight as hard for a dominant position.