daizyblackbelt

welcome to the club! IMO, if you're doing a martial art and not asking questions and feeling confused you're doing something wrong (or you're a master)!

That's an excellent point patusai. I've learned bo kata's from Sensei Toshihiro Oshiro and some of his students and they will teach a different version of the kata each time, depending on what they feel you need to work on. For example sometimes the kata suuji no kun will have a sweep in it, sometimes it won't, and still others it will have a sweep parry and poke. Frustrating to say the least (because you never know which is "correct") but an eye-opener in terms of different interpretations.

oooh, both good comments. i really liked your post killer, it's exactly how i feel. while i do appreciate the unifying factor of homogeneity in a martial art. I was at an international tournament in Las Vegas and saw a karateka from south africa perform Gojushiho and was impressed that it was move for move exactly the same kata i learned several years ago. (that was not the only example i noticed of this correspondance but it's the one that stuck with me). That being said, i feel that those without the room for "poetic license" (not to deviate from the overall pattern TOO much, but to interpret them in new ways) miss out on much. I'm frequently asked by lower ranking black belts, "why do you do that move THAT way?! that's different from what i was taught." the answer? i learned the bunkai, or in some cases was told to create them myself in order to create my OWN understanding of the kata. anways, i think that's it...

I'm curious to know what people think of uniformity in karate. One can generally watch two shotokan practitioners (at the international level) from two opposite ends of the earth, do the same kata almost exactly the same way. I like this because it creates a certain bond between karatekas. But i also love to see different interpretations of the same kata. When you see someone perform a kata, do you like to see it exactly how YOU expect it to be done, or would you prefere to see a different interpretation? I'm not just talking about stylistic differences (e.g. the many different versions of kusanku (koskun sho/dai, kanku sho/dai, etc...)), but also differences between schools in the same style (different interpretations of the bunkai, which affects the performance).

fascinating, thanks for the post

i've been to a few seminars with Sensei Teruo Chinen (Goju-Ryu). it's always a fascinating (i hesitate to say "fun") experience and i always leave having trouble standing after the second full day of drills, bunkai, and kata.

sohan is dead on. don't overdo it, practice lightyly, run things through at a low intensity, DO NOT GO ALL OUT. you'll end up being sore and tired. for me, the last week before a tournament is a time to work on details and prepare myself mentally. good luck in your competition!

as sohan said: I am studying yamanni-ryu bojutsu and saijutsu, that is, the style taught by sensei Toshihiro Oshiro (though unfortunately i am not learning from him directly). it is absolutely fascinating. but the mechanics of movement, striking, etc are all completely different from traditional karate. (this is where having done karate for two thirds of my life becomes a drawback...). for example a lunge punch with a sai in your hand (pointy end in, hitting with the handle) is done by putting your entire weight behind it, hips open, body almost completely sideways. terrible form in karate, yet extremely effective. this got me to thinking, "what would happen if i punched that way in karate?", and also about moving the way sensei oshiro moves while doing kata. his grace is astouding, flowing from one move to another, generating more power than i can hope to. if you ever get the chance to see sensei oshiro perform a weapon kata, i suggest you take advantage of the oppotunity. while i do not apply what i've learned my traditional kata, it has opened my eyes to fact that there are many different ways to to simply move and different ways of striking than those i was taught. i hope that answers your question. for more: http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo.html

i train in traditional weapons because i enjoy using them. in truth, you are correct that practising with traditional weapon has very little "practical" value. however, training with the bo and sai in the yamanni-ryu style has made me question certain concepts of karate and explore the limits of my empty hand fighting and kata. on the other hand, of all the possible traditional weapons, the bo and jo may be the most practical, they are only sticks after all... you'll also find that some schools train in knife-fighting, and other concealable weapons that could be carried around and used in a confrontation. i've seen kenpo practitioners perform some intense knife katas, and some traditional kobudo people use some other strange, yet effective weapons that easily could be used in a . personally, i practise martial arts because i love it (the physical activity, the competition, the friends, the beauty, the power, the speed, etc...). learning how to defend myself is merely a side-effect.

there are some similarties between goju and shudokan...However, it would more aptly be compared to shito-ryu but with more circular motions. Kanken Toyama was a student of Anko Itosu (who taught Shito-ryu/Shuri-te) and the only other student of Itosu's to receive the title of Shihanshi (protege), the other being Gichin Funakoshi. Because of this, much of what we do is based in that style, but with differences and variations. Although, we do *ahem* "steal" a few things from other styles (such as Goju...) and integrate them into the curriculum/style.

have i mentioned i want to learn judo? (yay for judo club next year!)

i agree with sohan. in my dojo we have three different "distances" we work with: sparring distance: the farthest away, easiest to be gentle in, controlled strikes, etc... dojo distance: closer in, about one arm length, make contact self defense: in their face, full contact in sparring, i set my level around where the other person's is and train with them rather than beat them. this generally means not buldozing someone shorter than me as many girls and guys are (i'm 6'2" with a long reach). in dojo, i gauge my strikes on their responses. i ask is this too hard? can i go harder? the girls usually surprise me with their ability to take a hit. in self-defense, i usually practice with guys, and the female issue is not a problem. they haven't shown any desire to practice with us...wonder why? it's important to work with your partner in training, not going too hard or too easy, whatever their sex or ability.

i've got quite a list: empty hand kiso kata 1-10 kihon kata 1-10 pinans 1-5 (little fuzzy on these...) ananku aoyanagi bassai dai matsukaze niseishi empi take empi ewa gekisai 1-2 sanshin tensho saifa seiunshin sanseiru shisoshin kururumfa sepai heiku pachu anan kosokun sho kosokun dai shihokoskun unsu soshin choshin kakoshin nipaipo gojushiho chatanyara kusanku (learning this one right now) kyoku 1-7 bo donyukun 1-2 choun no kun sho choun no kun dai suuji no kun ryubi no kun sai saijitsu kihon kata 1-2 kyan no sai nakandakiri wow, i sound like a kata collector...but i remember/can perform them, all of these, can teach them, and like to think () i understand the applications.

in my school we test for a shodan one year (or longer) after testing for shodan-ho. during that period, the probationary black belts are required to assist (not teach, only there for backup, demonstrations, etc...) during a certain number of classes, review the curriculum that is being taught to younger/lower ranking students, and begin assisting at examinations. It also allows the head instructors, who may not have had much chance to interact with the students until now, get the chance to know them and their character to a greater degree. Attaining shodan-ho marks their transition from students at the dojo to active participants in its workings and well-being. The shodan test is more of a formality, only requiring 1 kata (albeit a long one), and 10 applications from that kata. but afterwards you do get a certificate...

my sensei is very fond of: "Go practice until you faint, die, or puke." (for those students who like to ask "how many times do we have to DO this?!") "The bunkai is JUST like the kata, except when it's not." "If you don't know the next move, just down block." ("becuase it's such a STONG move"...hehe)

oh wow, shu shi no kon sho, haven't seen that one in a while the most important thing to remember in any competetive forms division is believability. each strike needs to be at full intensity, every movement needs to seem as if it would be truly effective in the "real world." in traditional japanese bo kata, you must (as whitefeather mentioned) remember to be crisp, snappy, and precise. good luck in your upcoming tournament!

i am a pracitioner of traditional okinawan karate (shudokan) and do not believe that XMA and its ilk are effective. that being said, i have always had a fair amount of admiration for the people who practice XMA. it is fascinating to watch and i would be very interested in having the chance to learn how to do some of what they do. unfortunately the only opportunity i had was ruined becuase the instructor turned out to be the single most arrogant person i have ever met. the video that spawned this post is extremely impressive, the woman is an incredible athlete, yet the question as to her skill as a martial artist remains unanswered. i am young and fit (at 19) and would most likely kill myself trying to do half of what she did. i agree with what others have said, that it is not necessarily appropriate to call that a "kata" done by a martial artist, but open form divisions tend to showcase things like this.

there does seem to be a certain lack of 20-30 year olds in my dojo as well oodles and oodles of kids under 18, plently of adults older than 30. our black belts represent an interesting cross-section though, a fair number of kids between 16-20 (myself included) and plenty that are older. i suppose that EVENTUALLY we'll have some people to fill in that gap

the combos are not introduced then, that is simply one of the few katas (if not the only) that employs them in our style. there is a decided lack of multiple kick sections in any of our kata and kumite, and it could be said to be a unfortunate lack. however, we are primarily concerned with our hands in shudokan, and intersperse them with kicks (lets say 4 to 1 ratio at best) this keeps it "simple" (deceptively so) and we have found this to be very effective in fighting a variety of styles. personally i love double kick combos, and am working on improving them, both with one leg and alternating, but never forgetting that punches and other arm strikes are the core of what we do. but we're talking about kata here. you'll find also that we introduce the aerial jump earlier than this, (partially at 1st kyu, and fully and 1st dan) but there's nothing that says it isn't still fun to do and impressive to watch when done well, or that it doesn't have varying degrees of difficulty and application that aren't fully appreciated or too dangerous to perform at a lower level. and sometimes you'll find that length can be a benefit in tournament katas. if you perform a dificult, long kata well then you're more likely to receive a better score. that being said, don't do something that's TOO long. i know someone who performed the kata "shin" (at least 100-200 moves and takes about 5 min to perform...) and received scores that weren't equivalent to the job he did performing it. moral of the story, "shin" does not belong on the list of best tournament katas. cheers, David

ah yes, i was in las vegas to see that, and he did fairly well. you have to be freakishly good to do well with those kata there they just don't like them all that much, but he's got some techinal issues that no here in the NW ever calls him on. and whitefeather: in response to your private message, the answer is yes, but i can't respond in private because i don't have more than 25 posts yet... (send me another PM and let me know who I'M talking to eh?

Kaku/Kakoshin is of very similar length to choshin. Choshin: about 70-80 moves Kakoshin: about 70 moves and it's got some fun stuff in it...: a "backside" 270 jump from fudodachi to fudodachi front kick, side kick combos a 180 aerial jump (just like choshin) ...almost sounds like an XMA kata...but it's not all in all, it's very enjoyable it used to be my tournament kata, and it's novelty and general bizarreness is a great suprise to many people who see it. again, it does not do well at any tournament that is not mainly shudokan (like the tournaments in Yakima, WA; Walla Walla, WA; etc...) but that doesn't decrease its value or sheer coolness. but it is the reason i switched to the Ryuei-ryu kata Heiku, and now Chatanyara Kusanku is anyone here familar with the Ryuei-ryu style of karate? katas: Heiku Pachu Anan (everyone should know this one) Paiku cheers, David

ah choshin such a great kata! personally i prefere kakoshin...but that's because one of my good buddies does choshin and is unfortunately good at it. not too many people are going to be familiar with them simply because they are so uniquely shudokan and aren't widely accepted as traditional kata.

out of curiousity... I've been studying Yamanni-ryu bo and sai somewhat second hand for the last few years and i love it. it's gorgeous to watch (very much unlike traditional, karate influenced bo katas it is flowing, graceful) and brutally effective. it's being propagated by Sensei Toshio Oshiro (http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo.html) who is under orders from his master to spread this previously secret art throughout the world its two most taught weapons are the bo and sai, though the style incorporates others. is there anyone else around who is familar with this style?

I have been training in Shudokan karate in Eugene, OR for more than two thirds of my life. It was the only karate I knew. Recently I've been inspired to begin looking farther afield in my training (due to meeting students of other styles both at university and at tournaments like the Ozawa Cup in Las Vegas), researching the origins of this style that I love. I find it absolutely fascinating to look at the differences between the styles. But what's more intriguing is the incredible similarites. Seeing someone from the other side of the world perform Gojushiho exactly the way it was taught to you is somewhat incredible. Perhaps what I most enjoy about our particular style and organization (as RSK_shudokan mentioned) is our tendency to *ahem* steal from everyone else. I'm currently learning Goju-ryu katas as taught by Teruo Chinen-Sensei, before that I was learning a collection of uniquely Shudokan katas (Soshin, Choshin, Kaka/Kakoshin) and of course (getting somewhat on topic) Kyoku Shichidan (about which I can divulge nothing except that it's ridiculously long and exhausting to perform). I hope it was too onerous to read my random ramblings. -David