jeff5

The meaning has changed over the years, and obviously today it means something different not only than it originally did, but to different people, different styles, different countries, etc. I believe I had read that initially a black belt only meant that you had mastered the basics of a system. I think you could teach with supervision from a higher instructor, or assistant teach. I don't know what the rank, 2nd or 3rd dan maybe, was before you could teach on your own and open your own school.

Hello Everyone, I used the search function and couldn't find anything on him or this style. (except for a website here in Chicago http://mmaunderground.info/default.aspx) It sounds like a good. comprehensive style, but outside of that site I can find nothing on the founder or on the style itself. Does anyone practice this style or know anything about it? I believe it derived from Doshinkan, but lots of other elements like Muay Thai and Boxing, were added to it. (as well as hard sparring..I think) Any experiences or details would be appreciated. Thanks!!

Mizu I'm glad your enjoying it! I've met a couple times with an instructor in my area and I like it quite a bit as well. He's a great guy, extremely knowedgeable, very humble, and the lessons are great. Some really crazy stuff, especially the pressure point striking. I like the tuite a lot too, very painful, very effective. The thing about the pressure point stuff is exactly what you said, its not where you strike, but how. And to only learn where to strike won't do anything. You have to change your whole structure and the way you strike in order to really be able to do it. But there's so much more to it than that. The set up for the strikes, working on distancing, limb destructions etc. The empty hand kata are: Naihanchi Shodan Naihanchin Nidan Naihanchin Sandan Seisan Pinan Shodan Pinan Nidan Pinan Sandan Pinan Yondan Pinan Godan Passai Kusanku Niseishi Shihohappo Lots of these are tradional Okinawan Kata. But, the way that they are performed is much much different in Ryu Te than I've seen in other Okinawan systems. For instance in Naihanchi Shodan (I've only started working on the beginning of it) there is no tension, no "hard" strikes, arms come to full extension then whip back, the chambering of the hands is much different than in most styles etc. Everything is relaxed, flowing, and "whip like", is the best way I can explain it. Striking is much different than hard style striking as well. There is never any tension in the limb. Even on contact. Its very "internal" chinese martial art like. I was shown those "shearing" type strikes to the limbs too, and man they do hurt! They actually do a lot of limb striking and destruction, reminds me a lot of the limb destructions in the Filipino Martial Arts that I practice.

CMA can be used quite effectively. Its all in how you train it. If you do nothing but forms and have never applied them or sparred against a resisting opponent you will not be ready for a sparring match or combat. As with anything else, all techniques must be tested and practiced against someone who is fighting back. (within safety boundaries of course) With regards to throws, I totally agree. My goal is to get the other person to the ground, hard. Then I can either restrain them until the police come, or incapacitate them to varying degrees if I have to. If I go to the ground, my goal is not to submit, its to get position and get up and off. To learn this though, I've been studying BJJ and Grappling. Will it ever be my main style? No. But to defend it, I want to understand it. (great art anyway)

Isshin and Goju are both pretty close range fighting styles. I would also argue that if you get with a good group that interprets Kata correctly, most styles and most combative applications are close range. Punching or closer, clinch and grappling range. Mizu I just started RyuTe myself, albiet with a very small group that only meets once in awhile. Still I've been practicing the kata's and drills on my own. Great stuff I can't wait to delve into it more.

Everyone should cross train to some degree in my opinion. Its not until relatively recently (the last 100 years or so), that martial arts has become so dogmatized. Tradtionally students went and learned varied styles from different masters. Why should we be any different?

Larry Hartsell has a really good book on conditioning where he goes over some drills using a heavy bag on the floor. You can work striking, proper techiques for transitioning from crosside to the mount and vice versa, lots of stuff. One good thing about a floor bag is that it doesn't complain, never gets tired, and you can hit it as hard as you want!

I thought it was a good book and interesting read. I can't say I agree with everything he said. One point is about Funakoshi not knowing the bunkai or how to break the kata down. If Itosu was training him and others to take over as royal guards, he had to be teaching them the bunkai and meaning of the katas, and having them train and research them. If the king came back and Funakoshi and others didn't know the applications, it would have taken them more time (years probably), to really learn and understand them and they wouldn't have been able to do their job. I think its more likely that after the king died and Itosu decided to let Karate be taught to the public (and in schools), that there was an agreement not to show the more dangerous and brutal bunkai. Interesting book though!

Never heard of that, do you mean Shootfighting or Shootwrestling?

Those are all really good points. I think you just have to look at each art individually to really understand it properly. Its too hard to generalize.

If you look at it from a pure self defense stand point, you're very unlikely to be attacked by another trained martial artist. And even less likely to be attacked by someone using the same style and techniques that you would use. The creators of kata knew this, and its as true today as it was years ago when they were created. I believe Choki Motobu is actually the one who stated this. That's not saying its wrong to use the techinques and principles in kata to defend against Karate style attacks. I think you're supposed to learn the and make them work in any scenario. But for the initial deciphering of the movement it might not be the best idea to look at the attack as a trained, martial arts type of attack.

Yeah the only way to get good at grappling really is to do it. But even if I don't submit someone and I have position, I consider it a good thinig. On the street, I want position so that I can restrain the person, hit them, and/or get back on my feet.

Another couple of things to keep in mind about Kata. -The self defense moves were designed to be applied against a common attack. NOT an attack from another martial artist, or one of the same style. That's not saying that they can't be adapted, but that was never their purpose -The moves are defenses against common types of attacks and assaults. Lots of grabs, pushes, haymaker type untrained punches etc. -Although the techniques can be used in sequence, most of them are stand alone techinques. Meaning that even though your flowing from one technique to the other, that doesn't necessarily mean its how they will work. Taika Oyata make a great analogy when he said its like learning the alphabet. We don't make sentences by saying A B C D E F G etc. We rearrange the letters to make a coherent sentence. Its the same way with kata -The main purpose of kata is to teach you the principles behind the techniques, and to help you better understand the art. This understanding comes through the analyzing and breaking down of the Kata into combat moves. Once your brain gets working in this way you start to see things in a different light and realize the principles at work so that you can make them work in any scenario Just some thoughts.

I don't know about questions to ask but there are some things I would observe. Particulary how he instructs and focuses on form and the basics. In any good school I've been in, the instructor always was watching people, and correcting or tweaking their form. Can you take a trial class, and are there contracts? ( I don't like contracts personally)

Offically, there were never any belts in JKD. Some instructors/schools today institute belts or ranking systems.

From what I know of how hard it is to get a Black Belt in BJJ, I can't imagine it being just honorary. With those guys you have to earn it with sweat and blood.

Sorry digging up an old post! There are hundreds of different styles of Silat. It orginated in Indonesia, but you find it in Malaysia, and in the Phillipines, especially the southern portion. The ground fighting you'll see is not like typical BJJ or Wrestling. Silat is mostly an armed system, and they assume that their opponent has one or more knives. So even in Harimau which focuses a lot on ground work, the work that's done is mostly getting yourself in a superior position and incapacitating your oponent. There is very little wrestling/grappling as we understand it in western cultural, mainly due to the reason above. Some styles of Silat can look a bit impractical and flowery. The styles that I've been exposed to however are extremely strait forward, combat orientated, and quite nasty. (Mostly Serak/Bukti Negara and Maphilindo/Majapahit)

First, let me say I'm tradtionally not a Karateka. My interests have mainly been in Kali, JKD, Silat. In my research into different arts, I've come across lots of people who are doing some amazing things with Kata. Whether you believe that they're actually rediscovering the meanings of the kata movements, (and I do) or reading new things in them, the techniques are undeniably effective. Please note, I'm not talking about sport here. Whether its sport Karate, Muay Thai, UFC, BJJ, that's a whole different ball game, and the Kata do not teach you how to be a better boxer, kickboxer, grappler, competitor, etc. (although there are some overall principles that you can apply for sport) If you want to do that, and they are great arts in my opinion, study one of the above. The best one I've found so far is here: http://www.iainabernethy.com/ Take a look at his site and some of his books and DVDs. Great stuff. I'd also recommend the book The Way of Kata by Lawrence Kane and Chris Wilder. (just search for it on Amazon) Rick Clark has also done some amazing things with interpreting kata. His site is here. http://www.ao-denkou-kai.org/ There's a lot more out there, but these are good starting points. The main point, is that kata itself isn't useless. Its what we've been doing with it (or haven't been), that's the problem. In my research, I truly believe that Kata has been misinterpreted for a very long time, and we are just now rediscovering its true meaning. But that's only one piece. Kata was never meant as the sole means to train for combat. Once you understand the applications of the Kata, you need to spar with them at varying and escalating degrees of resistance from your training partner. Ian says this in his book, but in the other arts I study we stress that techinque is fine (we do forms in Silat, they're called Jurus), but if you don't train against a resisting oponent, you will not be prepared for real combat. Its the same with Karate Kata. That's what my research has led me to believe anyway. I'm actually starting to study Karate now based on this. There are some truly devastating techniques in Kata, we just have to unlock them, and train them. To sum up, to make Kata useful for practical self defense, you need to do the following. -Learn, discover, research, have someone show you the more effective interpretations of the Kata movements -Visualize those movements when you do your kata -Have a partner(s) that you can practice the Bunkai with and experiment to find new Bunkai -Start sparring and training the movements with varying degree of resistance. The highest level of this according to Ian's book, which I agree with, is all out. (not literally, there are of course still things you can't and wouldn't ever do to your training partner) Again, let me stress, I'm talking about Self Defense here. Not sport. There's nothing wrong with sport, and I have the utmost respect for the athletes who train hard to compete. They can be some incredibile Martial Artists and fighters. But Kata was not made for Kumite (at least not the Kumite that's normally done), and it was not made to enhance anyone's abilities as a competitor. Its a record of survival techniques passed down to us by people who actually had to use this stuff to defend themselves.

Its funny that you posted this because I recently discovered this group myself. It seems like a very legitimate, sincere group of guys who are dedicated to studying tradtional Okinawan martial arts. The stuff they do is kata based, but with bunkai that is more realistic for self defense than your tradtional "block and kick" bunkai. They do tuite (mostly joint locking), self defense stuff through kata and hitting vital points, and pressure points. Taika Oyata is the founder of the system and you can see his site here. http://www.ryute.com/

I have to diasagree. For students it depends on their level. So its hard to make a generalization. If you get two instructors, what you'll probably see is what looks like kickboxing in long range, then some kind of trapping/clinching as they close in, then ending with grappling/ground fighting etc. That is if they're sparring. Not talking about a self defense situation. Yes sparring is full contact, light at first, progressively harder and against multiple opponents eventually. Everything that we do must work in an "alive" situation. (against an unwilling opponent basically) To add one more thing. From a philisophical perspective, having no form doesn't mean having "no form". (I may have that backwards) In other words you need a base to work from, whether its Jun Fan, Wing Chun, Karate, whatever, before you can chisel away at it and break out of it to truly flow. My understanding anyway.

Biting and Pinching are part of the Fillipino Martial Arts and part of what Sifu Paul and his instructors teach. We learn ground fighting the BJJ way, then we add in stuff that will happen in the street. (biting, pinching, gouging etc.) In the FMAs we study its called Ankab-Pagkusi (bite and pinch) /CHOMP!

Dylan. Can you post a link to the school if it has one? The other thing I'd say is check their lineage. Not everyone HAS to be certified by someone who learned from Bruce Lee in order to be a good teacher. But I would recommend checking who they've trained with and when. In the end the main thing is take some classes and judge for yourself. There's no better way.

Hello, first post! I have the opportunity to study Isshin or Goju. I'm not sure which to pick. My goals are mainly personal development and self defense. I know there are some similar kata between the systems, and they are taught in different orders. Besides that what are the differences between the systems? (I know Isshin has more of a vertical punch and some more natural stances) Thanks in advance for any help! Jeff