Drunken Monkey

it's the pic right? ok, in case you don't know, my avatar, it's not me..... and it is a 'she'. cute, huh?

just thought i'd say hello.... y'know, i saw a mention of two little friends of mine....

......hello.......

he brought recognition? by saying that it was all rubbish?

...whoa..... i'm a 'she'?

he was good at creating a product and selling that product.

With comments like that you are the one "hinting/suggesting" that you are not a REAL kung fu guy, not me how? i am just presenting one interpretation of what can be construed from the way you type/say things. you are the one who presents the notion of a 'real' kung fu guy. sometimes I even think that a street fight involving Bin Ladin rather than an authentic kung fu fighter is a more probable occurance this shows your view on most kung fu guys. It is all about using the earth energy (the ground) for effective punching this isn't what i'm talking about. i'm talking about basic structure. it is next to impossible to line up the six gates when you don't have either foot on the floor. the next best thing is to use the ground behind your shoulders (or get into position that simulates). Ask your sifu, he may enlighten you on the matter - or then he may not in this line i can see your 'your sifu isn't as good as mine' view popping up again.... Could you and WW be the same person how? cos we occasionally use the same word? By the way when I talk about real street fights, I am not "hinting/suggesting" that I am a REAL street fighter and the rest of you are not now you're just being silly. the instance i pointed to previously shows you to have a fixed idea about what/who is a REAL kung fu sifu and that you believe that most of them who teach are not. in no way does that bare any resemblance to the line i quoted above. stop trying to mock me and try to answer the questions simply and clearly.

not too difficult, maybe too complicated and would lead to too much confusion esp. if you are trying to explain concepts in chinese. when translated, the english would only be a literal translation of the term, it would be a basic explanation. you would be missing something that is implied in the chinese.

.....it's hard to stick to english sometimes. some things just don't translate and sometimes, if you try to translate, you lose the intention of the original, or it takes too long..... it's hard to teach in chinese if you don't understand the language. just learning what the terms are is not enough and doesn't actually 'work'. i can explain something in maybe ten characters but in english, those ten characters translates into a five minutes of explaining.... i've 'taught' wing chun to a non chinese speaker and i've found that it is best to show rather than to try to explain. of course, i give a brief explanation of why i'm doing it like this, but even in english, there is always something missing and there's no point in telling you what it is in chinese.....

.....which is why i like to know if we are talking about the same thing first..... once that is established, there is a reference point to what we are each talking about.

i don't keep tabs on web pages. i don't expect people to just read what i give them so i prefer to let them find their own 'truths'. after all, i might point you to biased sites. best if you do your own searching.

sometimes. what i say is that i'm going to 'hok kung fu' (learn kung fu' or 'lin kung fu' (train kung fu). technically, i can 'lin kung fu' at home. going to a class suggests instruction which is why 'hok kung fu' is more correct. (but 'lin kung fu' is also correct in that instance..) making more sense on when you would use a particular term?

hard.... the texts are mainly old chinese historic scripts and history books listing events and emporers and stuff. basically, modern transaltions of the old imperial records and things. there are other articles online. like i said. have a look at the histories of pan nam wing chun, yuen kay shan wing chun and hung fa yi wing chun. look at the names i've given in the earlier post. google is a wonderful thing.

......and i am telling you what the term means and how it is used from the perspective of someone who speaks the language from birth...... my friends know i do 'kung fu'. my closer friends know i do 'wing chun'. when i tell my mum i'm going training, i tell her i'm going to 'lin kuen' (learn fist/pracrice fist) or 'dar kuen' (hit fist). but it is also correct to say that i learn 'mo-kung' or 'mo-shu'. 'kuen fa' would refer to specifically the hand forms so i wouldn't use it cos that's not all i do but sometimes, i do just practice 'kuen fa' (which also falls under 'lin kuen') i wouldn't call it 'mo-shu' cos that has a very specific meaning.

not sure what proof you are asking for. in anycase, there is more proof of wing chun being 'founded' on the boats than the stories of the five elders. in short, the five elders stories can not work in the time frame in which they are presented, nor is there any proof of their existance. another little bit of 'coincidence'. while the 'tan sau' is seen in a few other chinese styles of the period, all of shaolin origins, it is only called 'tan sau' in wing chun. cheung ng was also called 'tan sau ng'. the 'tan sau' is known as one of the 'three seeds' of wing chun. 'tan sau ng' was said to be able to do anything from a tan sau. anyway. the boats were a means to get around. i.e training was not just confined to a boat. also, some of them boats were quite large..... what the boats could explain, is how the stories of the five elders could get around and spread in the way that they did (i.e how the legendary characters could get around so quickly and 'teach' so many people at the same time....)

no. it actually goes back further than 150 years but i'm just too lazy to look for exact dates. anyway. that is just the most recent accurately recorded and traceable line from shaolin. also, this line also goes directely to the anti-ching movement as well as real links to the burning of the temples. i.e the end of 'real shaolin' being taught at the temples (which is why i mentioned it) there are others. namely long fist, that was taught/praticed by many people, not just monks and not just inside the temples. quite a few emporers were known to be well versed in shaolin kung fu (namely long fist) and have records of the forms (some of the most prized books in the libraries were martial arts books). many of the chinese armies were taught shaoilin kung fu (again, direct links to the temples before burning).

.......no....... you are still applying engilsh rules to the chinese language. 'kung fu', the term, does not have a single specific meaning. ONE meaning is 'chinese martial art' another is 'hard work' another is 'skill developed from lots of hard work' but the two latter meanings are implied whereas the first meaning is more 'actual'. yes, there are other terms that also mean martial arts like mo-kung, mo-hok, kuen faat, mo-shu (romanisations from cantonese my own...). kung fu is a term derived from mo-kung. mo-kung means 'fighting hard work' (kinda) 'kung fu' in that context just means the hard work bit, not all of directly to do with fighting i.e mo-kung is specifically the fighting/forms/sparring etc etc. kung fu is everything from conditioning to weights to the fighting aspects. you are seeing the word in terms of how it translates into english, then you are using that english translation, in an english context to try to understand the term as it is in chinese. it just doesn't work like that. now please, don't argue unless you actually know chinese....

....it is common knowledge. the line only goes back a 100/150 years. it's not hard to find. just look up hung gar history.

...i think how you do it DOES matter. if you are executing it badly, it won't work as intended. therefore, you wouldn't want to use it. if you execute it correctly, that means you have full control over what you are doing. i.e it works - you would use it. i mentioned the 'bad' spinning backfist i keep seeing. basically, the guy just spins on his heels and whips his hand around. over commited, non-balanced, non-targeted. basically, bad technique in my books. no control. it might work but i wouldn't use that spinning backfist. so, in order to answer the question, i would first like to know if we are actualy talking about the same thing.

it's complicated. it is highly likely that the five elders did not exist. the dates do not match. i mean, the dates suggested by the styles' histories and real historical dates don't match. also, the time frame and geography of the legendary character's appearances do not match/make sense. also, the specific names that appear in several styles' histories all have a suspicious second meaning that is too much of a coincidence. specifically, hung gar and wing chun share too many elements/names/ideas. the only (wing chun) people that seem to have historical proof of their existance are cheung ng, the founder of the red junk opera boats (or something like that) and the other 'first gen' guys from the red junks i.e dai fa min kam, fok bo cheun etc. before these guys, everything doesn't add up. after these guys, everything is clear. it is highly likely that wing chun, whilst it did have origins in shaolin (cheung ng was known to be highly skilled in northern shaolin kung fu), was developed and refined on the red junks. check the history of hung fa yi wing chun (or something similar. as well as pan nam's wing chun. and yuen kay shan. then have a look at yip man's 'history'. and hung gar history. then look at known fictional stories like fong sai yuk (or is he actually real???) and his mother.

.....i don't get it..... kung fu DOES mean chinese gung fu. it also means a lot of things but it does without a doubt mean chinese martial art. ok. here goes.... technically, it should be white crane house/clan kung fu. 'bak hok pai kung fu' i.e the kung fu of the bak hok clan. a very basic explaination (cos there are exceptions to this rule) 'kuen' generally refers to a single form (or specific set of forms). kung fu refers to the whole style. using the shaolin kung fu-shaolin kuen as an example. shaolin kung fu refers to every martial art aspect that is/was taught. it emcompasses everything from hard conditioning, to tumbling to fighting to breathing. shaolin kuen specifically refers to the fighting and sometimes even just the hand forms as the kicking forms can be refered to by using 'gerk faat' (leg skills). i.e kuen = hand skills gerk faat = leg skills in the case of white crane, you don't use kuen because it just isn't correct grammatically and doesn't describe it accurately enough anyway because the forms aren't as specific as the base shaolin forms are in hand/foot emphasis. what you would use to describe your kung fu if you were a student of bak hok pai kung fu is simply 'bak hok'. if you do use a suffix, it is either gonna be 'pai' or the whole name. never 'kuen'. this isn't going to make sense but it is just how the language works. for wing chun; 'wing chun' is correct. 'wing chun kuen' is correct. 'wing chun kuen kung fu' is correct 'wing chun kung fu' is correct. basically, here, the style is hand based, hence 'kuen' being correct. wing chun is also the name of the style so 'kung fu' is also correct. make sense?

well, as far as i'm aware, lok ah choi was a shaolin disciple (the only one i can think that can almost be historically proved) he was the one who taught wong kei ying. wong kei ying taught his son wong fei hung. wong fei hung taught lam sai wing (and a few others...) who had three books made recording his sifu's kung fu (well, three major forms.) this lineage still exisits. basically, hung gar is a shoalin derivitive and a lot of the things you learn in hung gar are shaolin forms. i.e five animals, ten forms etc etc. there are other forms that have been passed down in other family styles that have origins in shoalin. i.e cotton palm, blood sand palm, iron shirt, tan tui and many more. this is why i have always said that the best place to learn shaolin kung fu is not at the temple. it's complicated because of how things are based: history and families. hung gar is technically a shaolin kung fu. but hung kuen specifically refers to the things that only appear in hung gar i.e gung gee fook fu, teet sien and fu hok seung ying. (romanisation my own....)

...but let's say there is a martial arts program in a school. who would start more fights? the guys in the program or the guys who aren't?

my old favourite.... failing to prepare is preparing to fail.

....well, i'm not that comfortable rotating into that stance so i normally advance/step into it, then rotate out of it with punch, kick or whatever i need.... and well, i asked originally cos i see too many people (or do i mean kid wannabes?) do it differently (in my books, 'badly') and was just wondering if it was only cos my chinese base teaches it differently.