Drunken Monkey

not much to do with martial arts do i'll put it here. i'm this very moment watching the newest darren brown program about belief systems. firstly, how good is that man at what he does??? for the american demographic, darren brown is a magician/mind reader/psychology game player thing type person. so far everything i have seen him do in previous programs has been word for word, action for action examples of things that many 'chi' experts say they can do. except he openly acknowledges it all as a trick/mind game. the show is about how some people just want to believe in things and don't stop to ask, is it a trick...... anyway. if you ever hear/see his name on your telly schedules in the US, tune in. it'll be worth it.

"....although the guy was probably a criminal as most of my mother's relatives seem to be...." pretty much like how most austrailians can tell you what their grand father/great grand father was arrested for.....

as my kick-boxing instructor says to the kids who want to punch the pads and bag straight away. "all in good time..."

in some cases it can also point to a certain ethic/dedication to their training. in some of the worst places, things such as martial arts, music or whatever serves as a means to escape what is around them. i remember seeing a report about a judo school in a particularly not nice part of brazil and it was the sincerest wish for the instructor to help the kids that come to his school, the same way as his teacher did so before for him.

i'm not sure about the first lesson...... pretty much most schools will try to get you to begin to move in a different way to waht you might be used to but not many will jump right in and teach you correct form yet. one of the hardest things to do is break you out of any old 'bad' habits (or get you into new ones) eg. in wing chun, they would prefer you to 'get' the elbow in movement before trying to get you to do a perfect tan sau. y'know, one small step at a time..... there's a chinese phrase that roughly translates into: keep taking those small steps and soon you'll have walked the great wall.

.....just wanna say that the punch thrown in the clip isn't strictly what i would call a hook punch and it wasn't what i was refering to when i mentioned obscure cutting in angle. the hook i was thinking of is the boxer's type where it is thrown at very short range, normally out of your field of vision towards the body or, if he chooses to use angles, to your head. it kinda travels in a very close-to-the-body arc (over his shoulder if he goes for the head). for the wing chun guys, imagine you doing a downwards elbow but shooting out the hand to punch/hook when you have the angle (instead of dropping the elbow shot in). it's hard to stop because while it has a circular power base, the line of travel is kinda straight and very short. i.e you have very little time to see+react to it, especially if he starts it from deep where you can't 'see' it. of course i understand that the clip is a beginners' clip and of course there's also all of the accompanying 'pre'hook' scenarios to think about. just illustrating the type of hook i was thinking of.

by sport you mean the chinese government organised national event thing right? best explain in two articles i've dug up. http://www.monashwushu.com/~nuke/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=16 http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/wushu/wsstory.html (isn't it scary when you type something into google and the first on the list is something that you've written? man, i think i've got to spend less time on the internet...)

depends on what you mean by wushu. wushu as in the national sport of china and related forms that are recognised by the competition authorities to be wushu? wushu formally known as quo-shu? i wouldn't give it much credit as a fighting system. but then again, not many ambassadors of that wushu will say it is a traditional fighting art. on the other hand, in mandarin, wushu refers to ALL (chinese) martial arts. there's also some schools that teach under recognition of the national art wushu authorities that do have a combat edge. the chin woo schools and the lee gar school are known for effective combat forms/teachings and they are both recognised by the wushu governing bodies. so as i said, it all depends on what you are talking about when you say wushu.

winning a ufc match doesn't actually mean you win the fight either. there was that gracie vs sakaruba where sakauyba as forced to tapped out with a dislocated shoulder or something from an armbar, right? but... gracie had to be carted away to hospital. the other guy could still continue with the fight albeit with a duff shoulder. (names might be wrong but i think the guys will know it) did gracie really win the fight? if it was a street fight, who would be the real winner?

"was an iron shirt belief and failure, wasn't it" some of it. the thing with iron shirt is that it was known to be a long to develope kung fu skill. it was easier to get people to believe that they were protected by spirits. spirit calling, not animal spirit calling. it was nothing like.... "....of shamanistic nature". it was calling on the demi-gods of chinese myths, most famously, the monkey king, kwang yee, na ja, etc etc but mainly the ones known for their fighting. "are they the ritualistic animist taoists that dress in yellow robes and have claims to a hang gung technique" nope. (where did you get the idea about it being about calling on animals?) they were a bunch of people who dress normally on most occasions, telling you of how to attain a healthier life and future by following their ways and teachings and stuff and then ask for money. they don't sell videos. they did wear the taoist dress for the rituals though. some of it looked like proper taoist ritual but it's just the underlying purpose of them was a bit iffy. i mean, they offered the usual services such as funeral services and grave preparations but there was also a lot of things about being to heal people that i don't agree with, especially the procedures surrounding it.

from what i recall of pak mei, it doesn't look that much like yip man wing chun. it does however, have more resemblance to pan nam's wing chun, especially if you take apart their dummy form. chow gar mantis looks/plays like wing chun as well. i think though, that this has more to do with the period in which they were developed and the current 'trend' of less fancy more upright styles. i don't think it is all stemmed from one person, rather a group of people. as you mentioned tan sau ng is a recoreded individual who was the founder of the red junks. he was known to be a shaolin trained man who specialised in the tan sau (although this has been questioned....), something that up until hung gar and wing chun, something that didn't exist in that form in the older styles. it's known that he's the one who trained/organised the red junk members. it's also known that the guys after him (leung yee tai, wong wah bo, dai fah min kam, fong do duk etc etc) were the real developers of wing chun as we know it in it's various forms today. don't forget that the red junks were constantly moving around that area of china. i think it's pretty safe to say that each port of call would have their own version of training. also, bear in mind the actual set-up and organisation of the rebellion. each group is in actuality a separate entity from the other so it is logical that each group would also have their own customary pecularities. of course, this is just educated conjexture from me.... in anycase, before the red junks and cheung ng, nothing is known. everything that goes before is total myth. i've never really cared who/where the art came from as i believe that the reasons and the contextual history is more important. don't get me wrong, it's not that i don't think it's important to know a truth, just that in the case of wing chun, the events and situations surrounding it are more important. in terms of where my art comes from, if i was asked where my (direct) lineage comes from i think i'd start with yip man. if pressed a bit further, i think leung jan has to be recognised as well, although seeing as he taught at least three versions of wing chun, i think yip man is a better 'starting point' for me. oh, and the iron thread is a bit of both. it is a hand form as well as an internal form. it is the culmination of leung kwan's internal studies combined with his fighting studies. and yes, i have a litte experience with mok gar. my cousin's other grand father was a choy li fut guy in the 60s. (tang family, sun wai) i wouldn't say that i know it. most of what i learnt about it was in reference to choy li fut and the phrases regarding how the styles work. y'know, the things about not letting a mok gar get the under bridge line, or not letting the choy gar get the outside unless you have the over bridge covered.... that sort of thing.

well, if you know how the drums work in lion dancing, then you'd know that it doesn't even fit with his movements..... i don't mind that it's out of place but at least play them to his movements. bah.... maybe i am too traditional after all......

...not quite. you can do a sort of chi sau, only it probably won't be the same as how a wing chun guy does it. depending on your style, you will have a way and a reason for doing things. i mentioned silat drills being taught side by side with chi sau in jkd. in the case of the silat drills, it is less elbow sense and more hard contact/reaction/spacial drill. (tap tap tap) BUT it has a similar form and trains a similar (or their equivilant) thing. take the case of tai chi's push hands. it doesn't work in the same way as chi sau, nor does it work the same elements BUT the result is the same. what you've got to do, is look at the simple drills from your style and see where it is that you read to do moves (what you react to) i.e do you feel forward movement/pressure or do you directly make the gap first or whatever. then just keep repeating the drills for both sides until your are 100(ish) % sure of how/why it works. then feed in another type of move and work this into the drill. keep doing this and soon you will have a flow drill of maybe 6/7 movements that can flow into each other. it won't be 'chi sau' but it would be a sensitivity/flow drill for your style.

i didn't vote as i'm not versed enough in how ufc works to judge. how-ever, a better person than myself has said that the ufc is geared by its rules-set to go to the ground. add to that the fact that a lot of people who occasionally 'fight' as part of their job i.e doormen say that most of their fights last a few seconds and it doesn't go to the ground. kinda points to a 'no' answer to your question, doesn't it?

have a look out for chow gar mantis as well.

whoa.... no need to be so defensive. i'm not going to bite your head off for asking a simple, honest 'why?' I say it is a bad/worse idea because the rolling part is a test of elbow position and structure. in wing chun chi sau/poon sau, you 'attack' when there is a 'weakness' i.e when the other guy's elbow or something is in the wrong place. to do chi sau correctly and effectively and hence benefit the most from it, you would have to be doing a style that uses elbow positions and bridge arm concepts in the same way that wing chun does. that's kinda why kempo and some other chinese styles have similar exercises. that's also why jkd does it; because of its wing chun origins and because of its use of elbow positions. in short: almost every movement in wing chun begins with elbow position. chi sau tests/trains elbow positions. to do chi sau you correctly you have to know about and be good with your elbow positions. to be good with your elbow positions, you have to learn the movements. hence, chi sau without wing chun doesn't work. for a start, if i am to teach you to roll in poon sau, i first have to show you three hand/bridge positions anyway; these being tan sau, fook sau and bong sau. AND if i'm gong to be teaching these three, i will have to teach you how these flow into each other as well as all of the other moves. before you know it, i've spent two months teaching you the first form and making you do drills.... in other words, i'd be teaching you wing chun to get to the chi sau/poon sau.

it's not five brother, it's brother number five.... as in "chut gee hu, luk gee wui". most of the time, the form's name is shortern to just 'bagua kwun' (one thing about the vid though.... why on earth are they doing lion dance drum beats? ) also, in hung gar, it isn't ten animals. the chinese is 'sup ying' meaning ten forms/shapes; the ten being five animals+five elements. the hsing-yi use of ten animals is very different as has no basis on the shaolin animals, which the hung gar form, being based on the shaolin five animals, does. in hsing-yi, the ten animals are in reference to their inherent element and with regards to the bagua. they (hung gar and hsing-yi animals) do not work like each other. and um, i'm not sure about if i see anything specifically wing chun like in there. what bit are you talking about? there's something but i think that's more of a shaolin thing rather than a hung gar/wing chun thing.

.....i would say that chi sau training begins with sil nim tao..... but before you learn that, you have to get your punching right. then as you learn the form, you do a few drills here and there. then you learn/practice single hand chi sau. then you learn/practice a few more drills. then you learn to roll in poon sau. after your rolling is tight, then you start to introduce the drills and other things from the form. just doing chi sau isn't a good idea. learning chi sau outside of a wing chun environment is an even worse idea. in the case of jkd concepts/jun fan gung fu teaching chi sau, well, that's slightly different because it isn't taught as an also but taught as a how other people do it. i.e it is taught side by side things like the flow drills from silat, as well as the singular techniques from the base wing chun, except they don't call it wing chun..... slightly different. i mean, for the moment that they are rolling they are effectively doing wing chun, despite what they might want to argue. anyway. i would also probably argue that chi sau is maybe as much about learning to maintain elbow position as it is about sensitivity. i was taught to roll as soon as i had got the first form to an ok standard. (by that i mean, at the point where i didn't have to think about what to do next and could begin to see where to take things from).

and you got all this from that film you mentioned? is it a China chinese film or a HK chinese film? and um, from what i know, Mok gar and Iron Thread Fist form looks and works nothing like how wing chun does. i don't really see how you get iron thread+ a mok gar form = wing chun.

i'm a bit curious as to what that little quote of mine has to do with what you've posted? anyway, traditionally in chinese culture, it isn't a kung fu style. shun gung is akin to spirit calling. it has nothing to do with legends and actual kung fu styles of any sort. it was one of the things that wong fei hung hated about the boxer rebellion because 'use' of shun gung lead to the deaths of many chinese people believing that they were protected by spirits. as for it's existance. there's a pretty famous chinese cult type thing here that bases itself on classical taoist teachings that has some sort of spirt calling/shun gung teachings (and claims to healing). can't quite recall the name but i'm almost positive it had something to do with 'healing light' (in cantonese of course....)

"Although I'm not overly well versed on the theory behind "jing sun", I believe that could be what I meant by the above. Doesn't it mean "the essence of life" or something similar? " um, it's not strictly "essence of life". translated directly, it is closer to "essence of mind/body" which can be "essence of life" but the actual meaning is not the same. from the sounds of it, you actually have a pretty good grasp of what 'jing sun' means or more specifically, what 'mo-shu jing sun' (romanisation my own) is. it is spirit, mentality, perserverance, tolerance, perspective, respect, loyalty, dedication, honour and a whole lot more all rolled into one. helping the weak and needy is part of jing sun. striving to better yourself is part of jing sun. patience is part of jing sun.

i think he means 'jing sun'.

i think this is maybe the wrong question. would you fight for him if it is blatently his fault? would you fight if he is the one who is instigating and prolonging the situation? would you fight for him if it is him who is being the aggressor? of course this doesn't mean that i wouldn't help but what does help mean? it might mean that i'd have get my hands dirty if it means stopping the situation or to extract him. getting my hands dirty doesn't mean that i go in breaking arms and noses around me: do what is needed. this isn't something that has a single clear answer. generally, i think i'd try to prevent it coming to something where fighting is unavoidable. if it is his fault, get him out of there before he goes too far. if it isn't his fault, get him out of there before it goes far.

....training for strength for when you move.... stances move, they flow, they change from one to another. there isn't a stance from which you fight. now structure is a different matter. if you're talking about structure then we are talking about things like hip placement/movement, angles of hands/elbows/wrists/knees, spine/line of your back, how high you have you centre, where you draw your lines etc etc.

i'm not sure if that type of move is going to work against a hook, mainly because of the 'obscure' 'cutting-in' angle of entry of a hook (not a swinging punch).