coralreefer_1

Yeah..i thought the kid had a good deal of skill too. I wish i were that good when I was his age. I wont say the kid was predictable, after watching an 18 minute video of the same kid sparring, I had a feeling for him too, but most of the kids he beat didnt have the luxury of watching him like we did. The only thing I didn't like was the Koreyo poomse at the end. I study taekwondo here at a college in Korea, and I have come to understand that Koreyo poomse is kind of like the heart and soul of Taekwondo poomse to Koreans. Many of the universities in Korea that offer majors in Taekwondo, no matter what dan you are, you are asked to do Koreyo poomse, not Keum Gan, or Tae Baek or any of the higher level BB poomse, but Koreyo, as part of the testing to even get into their taekwondo program. I'll give him credit for expression, but i just feel like when you do traditional poomse, it should be done the traditional way..not being changed for "dramatic effect" like it was in that video. Todd

Sorry to hear about the lack of thrilling demonstrations there. After reading your description, i don't feel like I missed out on anything. I would had had to take KTX on Monday afternoon, pay for a hotel, and watch competition today(Tuesday) which would have meant I would have skipped my 4 hours of sparring class, and then endure a long busride back. Again, I know what you mean about the Kukkiwon. I visited it in the spring, and frankly I was shocked at what I found there. I guess since Taekwondo is world's most popular martial art, and that place is the center of it, I was expecting to find some large place with manicured bushes, and an outstanding training facility. But I found a small and run-down area, everything seemed old. The museum and restaurant were closed. The day I was there, there was a poomse tournament going on, and as you describe, kids were running all around with no control. I left there thinking that the 2 little stores that sell Taekwondo gear just off the grounds was the best thing I saw about the place. I was so desperate for pics, but really nothing to take pics of, so i took pictures of the framed pictures down in the hallways where the offices are...haha I hope, in 2008, where this huge "Taekwondo Park" will open, and the Kukkiwon will be moved to there, that i can be better that what I found there in Seoul. Todd

Hey Jill, could you give me more information about this. I've never heard of it, and when i did a quick search for it, all i could find were videos for sale. If there is some kind of competition going on..i might swing up there sometime this week. If you have a schedule, or a link to more info..please post it. Todd

The whole "WTF is fake/useless/no good/unrealistic/inseert derogatory word here" argument really does annoy me (although not quite as much as the ol' Okinawan v Japanese karate argument annoys me). We're all martial artists - what is right for me isn't right for you. There's enough variety in martial arts and enough places to train in martial arts for everyone to have their own little corner of it and be able to do their own thing without insulting others over their choice of art, affiliation, teacher, uniform or whatever. I couldn't agree more. Like Aefibird, this argument that WTF people cant defend is old and just plain tired. Is it the very best form of self-defence? Probably not. But I can promise you the 3 guys who chose to pick a fight with me since I was a high school student, would not agree. One thing people seem to overlook is this: If you are good at taekwondo, and you can kick someone in the head moderatly hard, then imagine what you can do to their knee. Somehow people think that because taekwondo tournament does not allow a low kick, that we are oblivious to this technique. Believe me, I put two guys down with a quick roundhouse to the side/back of the knee, with a simple punch to finish. The Third guy took a side kick to the stomach, and didnt come back for more. I'm not some great fighter, but I've trained alot, more that 15 years. Almost everyone here agrees, that it all depends on the instructor that you train with, as to the quality of the art you learn, but I want to add to that. Also, it is the level of your physical ability. Frankly is doesnt mean anything if you have the best instructor in the best school in your area, if you are out of shape, dont keep yourself strong physically, have slow reaction time, or slow reflexes. Your ability to defend yourself relies on your own physical ability as much as the training/instruction you recieve. Back in america, some time ago, I used to teach an aerobic kickboxing class(everyone had a class like that a that time..haha) Anyway, I only taught those girls 4 basic punches, (jab, cross, hook, uppercut)..knee atack, and 3 basic kicks, (front, side, roundhouse) and that was it. Just they did routine over and over for an hour 3 times a week. But I would put those girls in a fight (like a simple streetfight) with any woman of their own comparative age and size anytime. Because they were stronger and in better overall health because of the kickboxing class, they had inherently already increased their ability to defend themselves. I highly doubt that if they went out to a bar, and some "bigmamma" picked a fight with them, that they would "jab, cross,knee" and follow other combos they learned in class, but they would be better off because of the class . I am a firm believer that getting yourself in a good physical condition is by itself incresing your chances of surviving an attack. Just my 2 pennies worth.. Todd

I voted that I would prefer a korean instructor, but there are good and bad points to each. When I had a Korean instructor, he was not my friend. he just taught class and left for his office. The class was great, but he wasnt very interested in getting to know his students. One person said before that they thought Korean instructors were ego-maniacs and only concerned with business. I wont say that is all true, but I will say this..after being here in Korea ar this college, the Korean students seem to think they are the best at Taekwondo. When they see me in my dobak, they used to laugh. Apparently american people are not supposed to be good at taekwondo. So they laugh, that is..until they actually SEE my taekwondo..them the laughing stops! I wont say I am the best at Taekwondo at this college, but I am easily in the top 5% here. But I can understand that previous posters opinion about Korean instructors, because at least the Korean I have met seem to think only Korean people can be good at taekwondo.. But I feel better about studying from a Korean anyway, even with the ego..because..maybe im stupid for feeling this way, but I feel like Im getting better or true taekwondo from a Korean. Of course..there are crappy Korean instructors out there, and I know all of them aren't great, but its just my feeling. Its kind of like this..sometimes I teach English here in Korea, and the parents prefer that their child learn from me, the American..even thought the Korean girl i work with can speak nearly perfect english. I am a native speaker, so they are willing to pay alot more money for that. The american instructors I had., the were good too. They were very friendly, and would actually get involved with the lives of us students. When I say get involved..i dont just mean asking about your homework, but going out for drinks together, or helping me move into a new apartment..that kind of thing. I never had a Korean instructor who was like that. As has been said many many many times before, quality varies from person to person, and you really cant judge an instructor just by their nationality. If you really care about it.you have to get in there and meet them face to face, watch some classes, and decide for yourself. Todd

IN WTF Taekwondo, 4th dan is master. But by no means does that mean that someone who holds 4th Dan rank has "mastered" anything. As far as I'm concerned, there is more to being a true master than proficiency at the techniques. I think you should also be a good role model to your students, and psycologist when they need someone to talk to, a parent when they need direction, a friend when they need a friend. Having the ability to properly judge a situation, and the humility to not act like some conceited fool because of your rank or status. To effectivly spead your teaching to others, and better the lives of others through your own experiences and knowledge. To me..that is a true master.. Todd

Im sorry to say it "IloveTKD", but something I have witnessed with my own eyes cannot be untrue. But frankly Id like to take this conversation to a private forum. I cannot send you a private message because i have under 25 posts, but please email me at coralreefer_1@yahoo.com, and we can discuss this further.

Ok, im not expert on either, but I have studied a little of both, Gumdo and Kendo I mean. I studied "Gumdo' under 2 famous korean masters a few years ago. And I studied Kendo for the last 2 semesters at my college. Here are the differences that I have noticed. Granted, I only studied Gumdo for a few months, but it was practiced with a hardwood sword, straight blade, about 24 inches long. The moves were long, and beautiful, and the forms i learned included low strikes, and wide sweeping cuts., jumps..etc. The style of cutting it was teaching was more like "slicing" as in ..sliding the blade across the target, not so much with power. It reminded me more of chinese style than a japanese style. The Kendo i studied as I assume like elsewere is a sport form of a more ancient art. The strikes were more like " a quick tap" to the head..just doing what you can to get the first strike. Most of it seemed to come form the wrist, and was using the bamboo sword. The good thing, was we got to put on the equipment and actually hit each other, so for me, i enjoyed it more. The teacher of that class is the secretary of the Korean Kendo Association, so there were no games, and it was a hard class. It was a good class, but i stopped it, because it was done on a hardwood floor, and every class, he would make us to this striking technique where you like jump forward and back..and he made us do it 1000 times every class, so my feet would be sore and blistered, and too sore for playing taekwondo. I came to Korea for taekwondo, but my taekwondo was sufferering because of sore feet, so i didnt take it this semester. I wont argue with anyone about the history or the lineage of each, but the seemed more different than similar to me. I would point out that Korea is physically attached to China, so though I'm not history expert, it seems to me more things in Korea would be influenced by China, that is..leading up to the Japanese occupation in 1910, than by Japan. Of course, Korea has been tormented with Japanese invasions for years, and so many of the artifacts and cultural treasures I have visited here in Korea all say in the little placard that tells about it that they were sacked and burned by the japanese at least a few time over the course of the past few hundred years, so its hard to say what is "truly" Korean. Anyway..thats all a little off topic. We can save that for another thread some other time... Todd

That's something that I can never see hapenning. In a country where people get used for practically breathing, the first time someone kid beat up someone elses kid with what they learned in gym class, the parents of that child, the school, and the country school system would be sued for millions. Hell I was reading in my local news that a school system in my home state was being sued by the parents of a boy who, together with a friend, broke into a cabinet and stole mercury from a science lab. They have been tested and nothing is wrong with them, but the parents are suing them on the "presumption' that they could have injured themselves..which is very true. My master actually suggested this very idea to the Wake County school system in North Carolina, my home, but was told that teaching taekwondo at school was "too great of a liability to the school system". While disappointed at the answer, it is a very reasonable excuse why not to allow it. Todd

Well, Karate Kid is a classic series, and though no-one mentiones it, if a martial art means fighing in a martial way, then boxing would have to be included, so I would add the Rocky series to that list. I was a huge Van Damme fan in the teenage years, and saw everything he was in. But there was a movie that came out here in Korea this summer, the star is a guy form Thailand named Tom Yum Goong. This guy is kind of like a hero in Korea, because of his skill as a martial artist and like Jackie Chan, he performs everything himself. The title of the movie is like this, but the movie poster I have is Korean, so here is what the Korea letters look like. 옹박 This movie has the best fight sequences I have ever seen, i mean spectacular. If you can find it, even if its just a clip from some p2p site, I highly recoment the movie. It was in Thai language, with Korean subtitles when i saw it, so i didnt understand anything, but i didint care..that guy rocks!!!!!!

Yes, I think 500 dollars it quite a bit. I say this because Barry Partridge was my Master (Grandmaster Jun Lee) student. It was master Jun Lee who gave Barry partridge his first Black Belt years ago, and and Im sure it was not 500 dollars. What the poster said is very true, His students are some of the best in america, and they clean house at every tournament they go to. But because they are some of the best, at least the ones I have seen at tournaments in NC and abroad, the have a terrible attitude. Walking around the competition floor like a bunch of thugs and hoodrats. His students are some of the most disrespectful students i have ever met(granted they are very very good at sparring) But this stems from their teacher. I remember at one tournament, he went and took the chair from a judge who had gotten up to do something with some paperwork. When the judge came back and asked for the chair, Barry Partridges response was negative "Do you know who I am" he said, and refused to give the chair back. Judging form that episode, and from the actions of his students, I am not surprised he charges so much, because he obviously feels his black belt is far more valuable than others.

My instructor back then wouldn't care. Actually, he would probably ask me to show him what new things I learned. But that instructor ran a school for my master, and he was short and stocky, maybe 230lbs. He was super-fast for a guy his size when it came to sparring. But we used to wrestle each other after class(always a losing battle for me as at that itime i was only 145lbs), but we did that because he was helping me to learn some other style of fighting, as he used to be a bouncer. He understood the benefits of cross-training. Personally, I think if an instructor gets upset about a student cross-training, that instructor doesn't really care about whether or not you can properly defend yourself, but worried that he may lose you as a student, or your studies in their art will suffer because you are studying others. Todd

Yeah..I think you are right. Most of what you listed is done mainly for fun by students, though I have seen several knockouts in taekwondo tournaments from the tornado roundhouse. That is basic procedure in most "olympic style" taekwondo schools. The others might be taught as part of the regular curriculum but i think mainly practiced for fun. There is a whole community of people out here who simply do kicks like this, and other kicks that they have to make up names for. Kind of a blend of the more acrobatic techniques of taekwondo, wusha, capoeira, and various other arts say, working to things like 720 hook, corkscrew, doubleleg, and those are just some of the more basic ones, which only the doubleleg I can personally do. If you like to see more of this..check out the home of trick sites on the web. I can almost promise you if you like 360 and 540, you will see things on that site that will blow your mind away. https://www.bilang.com Todd

I am here at a college in Korea, and I am around many black belts, and none of them have stripes on their belts recognizing their degree of black belt. My dojang in America uses that system, 1 stripe for 1st Dan, 2 stripes for for 2nd dan and so on. Of the many masters and instructors I have met here, I cant recall seeing one with any stripes on their belt. Something my master started doing last year, was giving out new uniforms that signify rank. He said it was going to become regular practice here in Korea, though i havent seen it yet. It is a regular uniform, but for 1st degree, around the collar there is a white stripe and the black collar, 2nd degree has 2 white stripes, then 3rd and 4th degree use a yellow stripe, with 4th having 2 yellow stripes...5th and 6th use green, 6th being 2 green stripes..up through the colors. My master is 7th Dan, so his is a black collar with a single blue stripe all the way around. Anyone else seen this style of uniform? Todd

Hi there. I am from Raleigh, though now I am in Korea. Feel free to contact me anytime. coralreefer_1@yahoo.com

I quoted you above saying that if someone doesn't kick very much it's not TKD. The last I knew Tae Kwon Do means the way of the Hand and Foot. Not everyone will take the easy road to score points. One may set you up by using their hands and then finish you with the foot unexpectedly. This gives a lot more dimension to the sparring game. The important thing here is the disclaimer "as far as I am concerned" it is just my feeling. People rag on taekwondo because they say sport taekwondo is ineffective. The techniques used in competition now are not the traditional way of throwing a technique. The kicks have evolved in a way to be faster, to "score the point" We all know that a proper roundhouse is chamber, turn over the hip, kick, rechamber, and down, but it is rare to see that in competition. Im not talking "in school" rinky-dink tournaments. Im talking national and international level. the roundhouse you see doesnt turn the hip over, and at the point of contact..the leg is straight, the knee is not brought past the target. Its just designed to be quick, slap the target to score a point, and back doen as quick as possible to defend of follow with another kick. It seems Taekwondo is marketed as a kicking art. When people describe TKD to people who don't know, they usually mention "its mostly kicking", or list a percentage like 70% kicking. I have seen it on this board. Even the name of this "Korean Arts Forum mentions "These High Kicking Fighting Arts. Again i didnt say that if you punch that you are not doing TKD, but just stated my opinion of how the "sport" aspect of Taekwondo might change if the rule changes I mentioned took effect. And true, maybe some with set up with hands and finish with a kick, but that sounds alot like kickboxing to me. I agree, it will open a whole new world to TKD sparring. Just I feel after a little time, the techniques will evolve again in a way that will score points easier and move on. After a few guys get pounded in the mouth while their leg is caught on a guys shoulder, it wont take long for people to adjust their style. Just my humble opinions...

I havent heard about it being hyped up for "tv" so to speak, but I have heard about changes coming to make the "sport" more appealing to larger audiences. I read in some martial art magazine that the scoring system had been changed at major tournaments, so that head shots counted for 2 points, and a jumping kick to the head(of any kind) had counted for 3. The article went on the mention this was implimented to make it more exciting for the viewer, as jumping spinning this and that is far more exciting to watch that "roundhouse chess" like most tournaments seem to be. Though i havent seen tournament yet that applied this rule, so im not sure if it was hype or not. I also heard the opinion from a very prominent Korean Master, who is well informed on the subject, meeting with the Olympic committee, and otehr organizations, that within the next 5 years, WTF taekwondo sparring would undergo major changes. He listed several possible changes to me, but of the ones he listed, there were 2 that in his personal opinion would become fact. 1. That WTF Sparring would adopt "punching to the face" rule, obviously with protection of course. 2. That the ring would change to a round ring of comparably same size, as opposed to a square. Remember, this was just this one GM's opinion of the reseults of the meeting he has been to, and the things he knows. Personally I hope the punching rule does not take effect, as then the sport will turn into that * that ISKA puts on ESPN and calles it sparring, where basically you are lunging forward with your hand out trying to touch the other guys headgear. Surely it is more difficult to catch a guy with a kick than hit him with your fist, but if that rule takes effect, then you will not see kicks too much anymore, as people will do what scores a point the easiest. And then, as far as I am concerned, it is not taekwondo anymore. Frankly, i feel that being limited to mostly kicking is what makes taekwondo sparring different from everything else. Sure, other methods are more effective for streetfighting. Sure other methods of kicking are more powerful, but this is the art and game i love, and I want to preserve it like it is now. Todd

When I was a white belt over 4 years ago, GM Joon Rhee came to visit my dojang. He was there to visit with my master GM Jun Lee, of Raleigh, North Carolina. He was an amazing man, though I have to confess I was only there a short time, I had to get to work. But I was there long enough to watch him do 100 push-ups in 60 seconds, something he is famous for, being in his 60's.... Obviously he is a very famous man, and I regret I didnt get to spend more time there. Hopefully I can cross his path again someday.. Todd

Concerning the original question, I haven't noticed too much difference concerning the "emotions" of different races of fighters, but I think there is an argument to be made concerning the "physical ability" of different races of fighters. For the sake of opening a huge can of worms concerning this subject, I will end my comment there. Concerning meditation in class, my dojang did a meditation at the beginning and the end of class. But it was not a "true meditation" I dont believe you can achieve a true meditative state in 45 seconds. It's just something I guess we do to try to maintain some kind of "tradition". I'd like to spend a class with just meditation, it would be a refreshing change.... (some comment coming here soon..) Todd

Hi there. I think i can help you with this. I am currently training in Taekwondo, Hapkido, Judo, and a military art called Tuk Gong Mu Sul. Taekwondo is my base art, and it is the reason this college gave me a scholarship to come here. I have been here for 10 months, and I will stay at this college for another year, then I will transfer to a real university with a very famous taekwondo program for another 3 years, so I am here in Korea for the long haul... First let me say, that when I found out I was coming to Korea, I was so excited, and a little intimidated. Perhaps I was a little naive, but i was thinking that when I came to this college, all the students that were here in the taekwondo program would be super hard-core. People said I trained hard, but i was expecting to be amoungst people who would make me look like crap at any given time..that is what i was expecting. But what I found when I actually got here was a completly different story. When I first came here, it was during the winter vacation of the college, so I did homestay for a few months with a massage professor from my college. To keep training until schol began, I enrolled in a dojang year his home. This dojang was a branch of Yong In University, which in widely known among Koreans as having the best Taekwondo university program in Korea. The head master was a fairly young man, between 30-35. First, in Korea, in dojangs like this, you will not find many adults at all. There were 2 others there, one 19, and another 23. Both of them were instructors there as well. Let me tell you, I was so surprised at the lack of ettiquete and respect the kids had there. For example, the master would have to yell "Jipap" which means line up, 3 or 4 times before the teenagers there would line up. They would drag their belts across the floor to their place in line, then casually tie it on while we were all waiting for them to finish. During the stretching and warm-ups, many of them would just casually decided.."I dont want to do "bridge", Just kind of decide which warm-ups they wanted to do and which ones they didn't. I can go on and on giving examples of behavior than back home would have you doing squats until you couldnt stand, but was just overlooked here. And on to their technique, whick was "literally" comparable equal to a green or blue belt. my jaw literally dropped when i saw some of there 2nd dans try to do a turning hook kick, or some other technique, just I was shocked. Most of these teenagers were higher ranked than me, as I am 1st dan, many of them were 2nd and 3rd. Many days I was angry in there, and if it had not been disrespectful to the professor that arranged for me to have free classes there, i would have quit. The worst thing was, the master didnt really seem to care about their disrespect. At my dojang in America, you do not step onto the floor without your belt tied on. When the master yells "line up" you run to get into line, and stand there and shut your mouth until class begins. If you are a blackbelt, and you leave your belt on the floor, or "drag" it behind you in such a disrespectful way, we tie it into a few knots, and have people pull on each end to kind of "lock" the knots in, which takes alot of time to get out. Well, I hoped when i actually got to the college in March, things would be better. I was let down again! What a shock I had when I came here and met some of these kids. Most of them basically dont give a crap about taekwondo. They dont train, complain after 10 minutes of training, and frankly would rather sit on the floor and send text messages on their phone than train. Most of them smoke cigarettes and get drunk every night.They were all so happy to tell me about their 3rd and 4th degree rank, but their technique in laughable considering the rank they hold, and most of them have no spirit for taekwondo. At this college so far, I have only met about 4 of around 55 taekwondo students who actually enjoy taekwondo, want to train, want to sweat and want to be better. To be honest, last semester, we had a night class at 7pm, where all the taekwondo students were to meet in a room and practice. But many of them just came there, played, sent text msg, pick their toes, and watch one of the few students with spirit while he sparred. I quit going to that class because they didnt do anything but talk. And at the end of the semester, many of them stole al lthe sparring gear, so now, there isn't even any equipement to spar with:( I know that all Korean taekwondo is not like I have described. I have been to tournaments and seen students from many different dojangs, and they were sharp, and after watching sparring and poomse all day, i can see that there are truly some dojangs out there where the master is hard on the students, and they are hard on themselves. But from my observations, those school are few and far between. I think there are 2 reasons for the things and attitudes I have observed. First, you must understand that taekwondo is part of the culture here. It is everywhere practically, on every corner, literally. I would guess at least 90 percent of boys here in Korea study taekwondo at least to some degree, from age 5 and up. That is where the problem is. I think, because taekwondo is so prominent in the culture, it is not "special" anymore. Its just the thing that everyone does, just kind of the program of growing up. In America, its not like that. If a child is there in a martial arts class in America, it is usually because he wants to be, so he actually cares about it, it is kind of a "rare treat"..something "special" that not everyone else at school is doing, so they seem to take it more seriously. As almost everywhere, taekwondo is a business, and probably more so in Korea, because there is literally competition across the street and around the corner. You can almost stand outside a taekwondo school and spot another one within eyesight, so obviously, if you actually demand respect, and train kids hard, they complain to momma, and momma takes they to the dojang down the street. And that brings up my second point. You know, 60 years ago, Korea was occupied by Japan, and at that time, life was hard in Korea. Many many people were poor. I asked a Korean friend once "Why is it when I meet other friends around campus, they always asked me "Have you eaten"?? He explained to me, this is because their parents and adults always asked them that, because in their generatiion, malnutrition was a problem. Many people did not eat like they should, simply because they could not. That is why people ask me about eating all the time, its habit. But since then, Korea has risen up to a wealthy nation considering where it was just a short 60 years ago. And since parents grew up with little, today, they give their kids everything..and I mean everything. So basically, these days, many Korean children are spoiled. Their mothers and fathers spend so much to keep their children happy. There are many 14 year olds running around out here is 700 dollar cellphones, and their parents happily buy it for them, and happily pay their 200 dollar phone bill every month, because they want to do everything for their kids, because they had it rough when they grew up. Many young people in taekwondo classes don't want to sweat, dont want to really train, just put on a belt and play for an hour. As far as testing procedures go, I have been told that at the Kukkiwon, and other "city" offical testing places, the test consists of doing all poomse, and a round of 2 vs 1 sparring, and thats it. I suppose individual dojangs may impose their own requirememnts. I have had 3 Masters offer to take me to "official" places to test, but I refused because i thought it was better to wait to test with my master in America, even though I am way overdue. And frankly, my test in America consists, of poomse, sparring, all 1-step sparing techniques(70), a series of hapkido techniques, a creative poomse or weapons poomse, 3 breaking techniques, and a written essay, along which a 5 kilo run, and I like to make things as difficult for myself as possible. I know this is really long, so i will sum it up like this. I grew up believing that all Korean students were hard-core taekwondo people..serious all the time, and Masters imposed military-like rule in class, but it is simply not the case in most places. Times have changed alot over the years, for the worst as far as I can tell. One other person said something in an earlier post that is probably true. Most of the best masters have probably left Korea to go to America. I can be thankful that my master back home was one of those that left. I know, that next year when I go to Keimyung University, my training will be 10 times better, because that university has the 2nd or 3rd best program in Korea, and is known for having very good taekwondo. The training will be hard, exactly what I came to Korea for, so then, maybe I can write something generally positive about my experiences of training in Korea, but for now, it has been as I have described above. if you have any more specific questions, please feel free to email me directly. I will help you in any way I can.. coralreefer_1@yahoo.com Todd

Hello. I am new to this forum, but I decided to skip putting the introduction on the "newcomers forum'. This Korean Martial Arts group will be my new home, so it just makes more sense to me to introduce myself to you guys. I am 27 years old, and from Raleigh, North Carolina. I am currently living in Daegu, South Korea. I was given a scholarship to come here, to a small college, and practice taekwondo. I have been here for 9 months. I have been involved with martial arts all my life, but never began formal training until I was 15. Being here with a scholarship, I dont have to do anything but practice martial arts all day long. I listed the martial arts I currently study, but I also take classses here in Judo and Kendo, as well as the one listed in my profile. WTF TKD is my base art, and I will fly back to America to test for 2nd Dan in October. I will also test for 1st Dan in Hapkido in late December. I have been fortunate to come here and experience some of the things I have, things I can relay over time and posts. I am a humble man. I dont claim to know anything, I dont tell people I study martial arts, and when the students of this college see my taekwondo and say."ohh..your taekwondo is good" I deny it, and respond with a no, because I know my taekwondo can ALWAYS be better!!! And now that you know a little about me, on with the post. I remember being back in the alt.martialarts.taekwondo groups on usenet years ago. I had such fun in those days. I can see from your post, and some of the others I have read, that the same old tired debate is still going on out there. People have been saying it for years.."TKD sucks, TKD is not practical, TKD will not help you on the street, TKD will not help you on the ground, TKD dojangs are just belt factories and "McDojangs" as they used to say. But your post, and another from a woman talking about moving her son into a TKD program raise a point that most of those that jeer TKD seem to be missing. That the important factor, is doing something that you enjoy. I don't understand where these people get the idea that TKD students are walking around with the idea that they are elite fighters who cannot be beat. In my home, in Raleigh, North Carolina, my master owns 3 schools. And a vast majority, and by vast, I mean, like 85%, of those students, are either children, young teenagers, are parents, like 30's and up. There are very very few guys like me, who others consider "hardcore". Who compete at every chance, and enjoy covering the floor with sweat from hard training. And as an instructor for him, I can tell you, that few of those students came there because they are looking for "self defense". Most are there, because the understand taekwondo instills great morals for their children, honor, respect, and all the rest. And many of the others, the parents, are there either because their kids take class, or they want to do it "as a family", or they are there to lose weight, or just to "try something new" TKD has been the punching bag for the martial arts world for years. People can say "well my green belts beat WTF TKD black belts at every competition". Maybe that is true, and I agree, there are certainly many dojangs out there that don't care about whether their students are proficient in technique, just whether their credit card or bank account number will go through. So there are many many TKD students wearing black belts out there who maybe dont deserve it. But consider this: TKD is the most popular martial art in the world, and there is practically a TKD school on every corner in many parts of America, so there are many many TKD students. Just by sheer numbers, it is logical to expect that there are going to be students that maybe dont deserve their rank. It seems to me, that if any other martial art were as popular as TKD, and had as many people studying and competing in that art, it would not be difficult to find people who did not deserve their rank, to find black belts of that art losing in competition to color belts of another, just by the sheer numbers of followers. The most important factor is doing something that you love. Most will never actually use anything they learn in any martial art in a real life situation. If you enjoy WTF TKD(same here), they dont feel bad about it. Don't let anyone tell you diferent, just be happy and follow your own path. I'm sorry I got a little of track there. Martial arts are my life, and I have been given so much from TKD, so I defend it fervently. Have fun, enjoy your TKD..and Keep Kicking!!!!!!!! Todd