Zaine

Something that I really appreciate about my dojo is our precautions, despite the location. We did have a case hit our dojo 2 weeks ago, but it was only 2 people and they notified everyone immediately. We've had people not show up when they came in contact with someone with COVID, even when they weren't infected themselves. Everyone is very careful here. We have some high-risk individuals (like myself), some who live with high-risk individuals (a few take care of elderly parents) and we've approached the whole thing with a lot of compassion and understanding. That said, I love the decisions that Wastelander is making here. You really cannot be too safe with COVID. As compassionate and careful as my dojo is being, we're still taking more risks that we need to.

I don't know how I missed this thread! I signed up when I was 15, and the amount of growth that I have seen not only in myself in those 17 years but in this forum is crazy. I love our little corner of the internet. Now that it is old enough to enjoy an adult beverage, have one on me, KF!

There is a oddly high density of styles that aren't as represented in the public space here. My guess is that because Shotokan and the like have so many spaces that are usually exclusive to them, they are less inclined to hunt for spaces to share their passion. I've been doing Shorin-Ryu for most of my time as a martial artist, and the amount of people I see in these classes compared to the Shotokan, TSD, and TKD dojos and dojangs I have visited is a huge difference. It's one of the things that I love about this forum. You get to see a lot of smaller (in terms of size) systems being represented here and it creates a wonderful mix of perspective. We love our Shotokan and other more "popular" systems here, but it's also cool to see the variety.

Welcome to KF! It's great to have you!

Congrats! Well earned!

I live in Texas, so my dojo cannot require vaccines by law, which is insane to me since we're a private business and historically the platform our governor has run on has frowned upon policy like this. So because of that, no dojo that I can go to here will have a vaccine requirement, which makes me nervous. However, during spikes our dojo will require masks, which is appreciated. We are in a period now where masks are not required, but wearing a mask is still accepted and you will be asked to leave if you're causing a fuss about someone else wearing one because of their own choice. I would feel a lot better if our dojo mandated vaccinations, and I know a few others who would as well since we're immunocompromised or frequently around immunocompromised people but the literal law is standing in our way.

Yes, we were meaning two different things here so the wires got a little crossed. I was meaning someone on the ground but not knocked-out. That's a fair point. We tend to use it in a few different ways. Not surprising. MSSR Chinto is much different from the Chinto that Shobayashi does and I've seen at least 2 other ways since. Very possible, and that is the difficulty with talking about kata in a text based format. There's also the issue of the game of telephone that is learning karate, and the way that some people will morph a kata to make sense for their bodies. We run into this problem at my school. The founder was a very short man, and as such some of the techniques were very likely changed to make sense for him. In the change came a change in bunkai and the like and this is what he passed on. Now were at the place in the dojo of trying to translate those techniques back into something that makes sense as a lot of us are significantly taller than he was. Part of the fun of karate for sure, but definitely frustrating.

I was unclear, I think. We do practice some Kihon moving backwards. Our non-kata drills are almost exclusively defensive in this way. We also have a number of kata bunkai that has us moving backwards.

Sure, and we have that in spades, but we also have just straight up punches to a downed opponent. It even shows up in our ippon kumite and other "official" bunkai applications. We have one that comes to mind where, after a throw, we punch to the groin.

The example the comes to mind here is Gojushiho. In the Shobayashi iteration of it, there is the sequencing of the finger strikes, kick, punch, then a horse stance at 45 degrees where we scoop up the head (imagine grabbing hair) and then punch down. There is also the final move of Chinto (also Shobayashi) where the final move is expressly hitting a downed opponent by going to the knee and delivering a punch. There isn't much of this in Matsumura-Seito, but I've encountered quite a lot of it in Shobayashi. Ananku, in every version that I have learned, sets a cat stance in the first two shutos by stepping forward into a cat stance. Some versions of Wansu also end with setting a cat stance forward for the shutos. Pinan Shodan often steps forward into cat stance with shutos as well.

I want to believe that the majority of practitioners think the way you do about kata here. Kata is very clinical in nature, there is a correct way to do a move in a kata. In fact, I cannot think of one bunkai from a kata that matches the way I do the kata 1-to-1. There's not really any situation in which I would sink down to a horse stance, especially to hit a downed enemy who is right next to my perfectly functioning foot. For me, kata has always been about learning the "proper" way of doing a technique so that I can riff off it at will. I might never set into a full cat stance, but I do a modified one in sparring quite often. This is also the importance of bunkai and drills, for me. We have a naihanchi drill that isn't as based in "proper technique" that I find effective and easy to remember because of all the times that I have done naihanchi in my life.

Certainly some of the hyung can fall into the karate side, such as the nahanchi series found in TSD. I would not be surprised, either, to learn that some of the other hyung are cognates from kung fu. If you're unsure about a technique, I would say that a general rule of thumb (and a very loose one, at that) would be the harder the technique the liker it is that it comes from karate, the softer the technique, and the more it flows, is kung fu. Exceptions aside, it's how I generally gauge things within my own martial arts. All-in-all, it's going to be so hard to tell at this point. We are far enough away from the original styles from which sprung our modern ones that it becomes increasingly difficult to know for sure which technique came from where. Adding to this mix the penchant for martial arts to be surrounded by so many legends and myths, it's just too muddled. I suggest maybe finding a book on the history of TSD, or Korean MA in general. That might give you some more detailed answers.

Congrats Danielle! I don't even think I can count that high.

This sums up the feelings of disagreement that I had in a much more succinct way than I think I could have said it.

I generally let Korean Karate practitioners make their own decisions about this, but it seems that the consensus here is that it is Karate and I don't really see a reason to say otherwise. I don't think popularity in other countries plays a whole lot into. As wide spread as karate is, it doesn't feel fair to claim that it is a wholly Japanese or Okinawan thing anymore. Making the argument that it is a wholly Japan or Okinawan thing does open the door for arguments based on Karate's own history, which is deeply rooted in Chinese martial art traditions. Does that make Karate it's own thing? Or a branch of some system of kung fu? I think the name argues for my point as well. Karate means empty hand. Does our decision to continue the use of that name mean that it is a Japanese thing? Or like the word "cool" has it simply become a borrowed word within the lexicon of a myriad of languages. Linguistics would suggest that the latter is the case here. Again, this is not to say that we should be flippant about the history of karate in Western countries and elsewhere. It's important to know where our styles come from and respect that lineage. But if we're not calling Shorin Ryu Tode anymore, then I don't think it's necessary for us to consider Karate from other countries as being wholly Japanese.

You bring up an interesting point. My gut reaction is to say that I disagree with your premise, I don't know if it's entirely fair to call the knowledge base theoretical. I, however, am not sure how I want to go forward with explaining my position at the moment, so I am going to think on it and come back to it.

Broadly? No, I don't consider karate to be wholly Japanese. I believe that it is too global for that. With things like Ed Parker Kenpo and the like reaching national and sometimes international popularity, I think that we can safely say that karate is a thing in and of itself. I think styles of karate can be attached to a national identity, and that it is important for styles of karate to recognize their lineage and pay respects to that history, but I would not call Tang Soo Do Japanese Karate, despite it finding origins there. For example, I practice Shobayashi Shorin Ryu. My karate is Okinawan and I hold that distinct from Japanese karate (despite Okinawa being an island owned by Japan). In this system, we draw heavily from the chinese tradition that the name implies, but we would never say that we are kung-fu, or even Shaolin. Funakoshi was Okinawan, but I don't see a lot of Shotokan practitioners identifying their style as Okinawan.

Unlike Bob's answer, I'm the opposite. I twist my torso and then snap back to straight.

Welcome to KF! It's great to have you.

Congrats Patrick! Such a fun journey ahead of you!

Says who? Don't let anyone tell you how to do something that you love, especially when you already have all this experience. I self-trained with videos and books when I was looking to get back into karate with a dojo. It helped me finish up the curriculum that my teacher had when he stopped teaching. I also would do some research into books. Blackbeltwiki could be a resource, but it's a shot in the dark as to whether the Shito-Ryu kata videos on there are the ones that you would have practiced or from some branch that wasn't yours.

Congrats!

Welcome to KF, and welcome back to practicing! I took a long break as well, though for different reasons, and felt the same way. It feels so good to get back in it.

Honestly, if I were in the GMs shoes then as long as he brought me some beer then it would, in fact, be fine.

Welcome to KF! It's great to have you!