jion

we don't use them enough. In my opinion, they are absolutely essentially to any striking art. There is only so much an instructor can do within a 2 hour time frame (kihon, kumite, kata, bunkai, etc). If you're serious about karate, you should be using these on days away from training.

Thanks, and I did mean Jitte. I'm getting too many things confused today, I might just restart the day. If I was a McDojo, you'd get a new belt (for a small fee of course)

ji'in: Shuto-Jodan-Uke -> "Bo-Uke"->Ashi-barai movement It's often interpreted as block a staff attack with head-high knife hand block and then grab the staff, twist hands, rip it from the attacker's grip and sweep his leg. However I prefer: -> closer range, knife hand attack to vital point -> simultaneous neck and groin attack with twist -> quick pull and knee to attacker's head (or some other juicy part) Obviously you can't use it in class when doing the "official" bunkai, but it definitely works better on the street than blocking a staff with your forearm I haven't run Gojushishi-Sho/Dai in ages, since I've been pulling the heian/pinan katas apart like hell Love to hear from others with nasty/effective/non-bugas bunkai!

First of all, welcome to Germany (or Switzerland, depending on which side of the border you're on), I hope you enjoy your stay If I were you, I'd simply just check out the dojos/dojangs in town. Speak to the people there and the trainer, and have a look at the type of people training. It's basically the same situation as in other countries, there are clubs that are just out to make money, others are more for brawlers, whereas there are also clubs that focus on just the sporting aspect of martial arts. As far as TKD or Shotokan, I think it's important to go for the better club. Although there is some rivalry between TKD and Shotokan, I don't really think it makes that much of a difference. It's not the martial art that makes the martial artist, I guess. Wish you all the best and keep us updated once you find a suitable place to train.

1) Since I don't like tournaments, I would say Empi is my favourite to do 2) Any kata from Goju-Ryu or katas from other styles that are similar to my Shotokan katas 3) Bassai Dai. And lately Tekki/Naihanchi Shodan, there's so much bunkai in that kata....probably the only kata you'll ever need.

It's difficult to answer, but I think you're quite nice to refund the student's money. But I also think you should have researched it a little more. I do think you acted right by not letting them compete. On the other hand, you're an experience richer. I'm sorry if this doesn't help you anymore. I'm really out of my element when it comes to competitions, etc. But I felt I had to say something.

I don't think rank means much at all. I bet he can tell if you've got previous experience or not. If you think white belt is too low for you, you can maybe just do a grading for blue belt again? Just remember it's not about the belts, once you're a black belt, or even brown belt, you're up against people that have been training for a decade or more.

Good luck and have fun! (And don't forget to tell us how it went)

Which Shotokan? Do you mean sport Shotokan, where they do point-scoring? Do you mean Funakoshi Yoshitaka's Shotokan, where the stances are stronger and deeper, the one that's closer to Azato's Shuri-te? Or Do you mean Funakoshi Gichin's Shotokan that was more about katas and developing character? The only difference between Shotokan and the most brutal fighting art is the difference in attitude in my opinion. There was a reason why Funakoshi Gichin rejected competitions, and it wasn't because his karate was weak. Shotokan's history shows weak competition style and aggressive full-on power and military training. The choice is yours, which road you want to travel down.

That's similar to a lot of martial arts. AFAIK, that's how TKD is taught as well. Just a side note, it was "Seargeant" Yabu Kentsu Norimichi (1863-1937) who came up with that idea of doing linework, obviously from his military background. He also considered one of Okinawa's greatest fighters and was even a legend while he was alive. He trained in shorin-ryu style of karate under Itosu und Matsumura (whose style later became Shotokan) and was the only known person to have defeated Motobu Choki. The only reason why linework was really used was to teach karate quickly and as efficiently as possible. Usually large groups of people were trained at one point. I recall Funakoshi only 3 or 5 people in the beginning, and I seriously doubt they did linework as we know it now.

Every place I have trained at goes something like this: noobie 9th kyu - white (some require grading for white) 8th kyu - yellow 7th kyu - orange 6th kyu - green 5th kyu - blue 4th kyu - blue (I wore a purple belt and got funny looks) 3rd kyu - brown 2nd kyu - brown 1st kyu - brown 1st dan - black 2nd dan - should be black but must wear something more like grey and smelly > 3rd dan - probably whitish with black spots

In my heart, although I respect und admire sports karate, self-defense was and is what it's about. Although the schools I attended weren't really sports-centered, they weren't SD-centric either. We would always do bunkai, or what I'd like to call Bogus Bunkai (like the jumping over the staff in Heian Godan, or the dogding of those sweeps in Tekki Shodan). That, more than anything, tired me out. It has always been a big dream to start up a club. And you're absolutely right, it's not the org or instructors. Let me ask you something since you've been doing it for an incredibly long time. How are you dealing with the politics of it, the effectiveness of the official bunkai, are you more interested in SD or Sport? And can you relate to the first post that started all of this off? I should actually write an article as a followup to this thread noting all the changes that have happened in the past week or two. Maybe I can help someone see it from a different perspective too.

When Otsuka originally left Funakoshi's Shotokan he was already - as far as I know - awarded headmastership of Shindo Yoshin Ryu Ju-Jitsu. Wado is more about very light and fast techniques, whereas Shotokan (at least Gigo's version) is more about brutal strength, full on attacks (see Shotokan's darkest history). Traditionally there will be more grappling and groundwork in Wado then Shotokan. Nowadays there are a lot of slightly different versions of Shotokan (arguably none of them carry on the original thoughts of Gichin), so dojos vary. Like SenseiMike said they do groundwork. At my school I don't recall ever doing any.

I'm going to go with the trends on this one and pick Royce Gracie, he's inspiring and intimidating. I'd love to have a tea with Funakoshi Yoshitaka and Gichin. I'd love to ask them contraversial questions, like the one we often hear on these forums

karate was made to defend against normal attackers, not specialised martial arts. Although karate does have grappling techniques within the katas, it just wasn't made to defend against someone with state of the art grappling skills. In a street fight you are likely to go down but your training as a karateka should (in theory) prevent this from happening. The basics of karate is, avoid the fight by all means, strike to the head, maim, do whatever to get out of there, and don't end up on the ground (i.e. on your feet ASAP). And run! In a competition arena, chances are as soon as you go down against a grappler, game over. It's just a limitation of karate itself in a competitive surrounding. (Some would argue that takedown on the street are as effective as knife/gun defenses) My tip for you is to learn all the grappling techniques in karate (hidden in the katas) and go to as many open seminars as you can (BJJ, JJ, Judo, etc). And forget people like the Gracies, those people are top notch martial artists that trained grappling for a lifetime.

Two points: 1) Kata as a string of acrobatic moves is only good from an aerobic sporting perspective. For actual fighting this type of "kata" is useless 2) Bunkai Bunkai Bunkai! Not Bogus Bunkai either, but real applications, if the bunkai feels phoney, it is! I voted for yes! I believe kata is the basis of karate and effective fighting, unfortunately many people - including myself until recently (see Shotokan - Dead End thread) miss the whole point.

That is absolutely true. Often on these forums you get asked about Shotokan's effectiveness or this style vs that style, etc etc. It's not up to the style to make you effective, it's your responsibility. There is no helf except self-help. That is why after all these years I thought something was fishy. After bumming around for a few years I turned and asked myself, "how can I get more mileage out of Shotokan, I can't be the only one". It's great that people are still coming up with ideas. I bet I'm not the only one asking themselves these questions.

Originally I wanted to find something else, since Shotokan just hit a dead end for me. That is why I tried jujitsu. However, I missed those little things you get in Shotokan. Although one doesn't exclude the other, I found Shotokan was and is the love of my life. I set out looking for more mileage. It isn't about criticising the style, and I overgeneralised a lot to make a point, but it was about me finding a new direction within Shotokan. I came to the point were I was stuck in "Children's Karate", the way Itosu and Funakoshi made it. I doesn't really have to do with McDojo's or anything, probably more to do with the fact that most people who train Shotokan just enjoy it as a sport or exercise. This thread really helped me out, put my mixed up thoughts into perspective. I now have a goal Gone are the days of just turning up at training twice or three times a week, I now understand that the ball has been passed to me and it's up to me now! Besides the linework and bogus bunkai, I now go home and rethink bunkai. I don't see selfdefense as a more realistic sparring session. I now see Gichin Funakoshi crushing someone testicles in a slightly different light. I now see Shotokan as a complete martial art. Long talk. I thank everyone for helping me out!

I am generalizing Shotokan, but only to prove a point. It's when I go to open-style seminars there's quite a bit of "Shotokan-bashing". And when I take a look at the bigger picture, some of those thugs (those who bash Shotokan) have a point, to a certain degree. You only need to read 24fc's website and see it's worldwide. (I know from experience that it is, I've trained in Australia, Germany and Sweden). I came to the stage where I was not really burnt out, I love Shotokan, but during this thread I rediscovered Shotokan. Lately I've been doing nothing but disecting katas. I'm determined to find as many applications for shuto uke as possible. I've showed some people some techniques I've picked up from around the net. Of course there are other Shotokan schools, most of the them are similar in a way. And it's those schools I'm challenging to think out of the box. But actually I'm challenging myself to think out of the box. I realised even though I could pull off a really cool Jion, I could not find real-life applications for all of the techniques. And even if I could, I never applied most of them in real life fighting situations. Right now I'm at the point where Shotokan is really exciting again, I don't need to look at jujitsu and think "Wow, cool locks, wish we did more of that"...now I just look in the kata. now I just take training and go home., and that's where the magic starts!

His accomplishments are still the same, and one thing I learned was even legends are human! I love Kyokushin and how Oyama took karate to a new level. Osu!

Could you please explain ?? As a kid and teenager I was a big karate freak. I did Shotokan and a friend and his dad did Kyokushin. One day in 1988, there was a championship in Sydney, Australia. I think it was the First Commonwealth Knockdown Championship. A lot of big names were there. It was a great day, and the fighters were mind blowing (even back then I wondered why our sparring was 'weaker'). After the show we rushed to get some autographs from as many people as possible. And of course we wanted Mas Oyama's desperately. We lined up like everyone else and just as we got to the front of the line, Mas Oyama said that he wouldn't sign anymore, unless of course you had bought his book. We were very disappointed, even though John Taylor (if I recall his name) was very nice to us and felt a bit of sympathy. Mas Oyama saw us and still wouldn't give us an autograph. I guess I can understand Oyama, but I if I was ever in his position and saw two 13 year olds standing there.... Nonetheless Mas Oyama is inspiring, and human. But that day he kind of lost some of that magic. So that was my encounter One guy that was really nice was Kanazawa. Although I never got to meet him myself (and this wasn't at the Kyokushin championship, but at a seminar in Germany) a friend not only got some kind words and an autograph, but Kanazawa drew a little picture of Mt Fuji-yama, added a comment and signed it. It's funny how little gestures like that, even though they're unimportant, can be really cool.

Thank you for the Ian Abernathy tip. It looks very interesting, maybe that could help me take it to a new level. I recommend anyone interested in this topic to check out the articles over at Iain's site http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp They have been evolutionary as well as revolutionary to me.

There are many great reponses...I don't know where to start, too many great ideas. It's a pity I'm not in the US - since many of you are - most of these posts happened whilst I was in bed I know, but Mas Oyama was unsatisfied with the fighting aspect of Shotokan, he was as far as I remember a nidan and trained under Funakoshi. Shotokan is however a major influence on Kyokushin. I have nothing but respect for Kyokushin, even though my encounter with Mas Oyama not so good. Funny you mention that, I was reading it last night! I also recommend The Psychology Of Achievement if you're interested in self-help books. Not really, my cup is empty. 20 years of one-sided training and I'm left asking myself "what are all these kata techniques we're not using?". The only person responsible for this is me, and I'm not blaming anyone for my late awakening. I'm basically asking people here, who might be or have been in the same position, how can we get more out of Shotokan? Brilliant! Sounds like your club can think out of the box a little more than the ones I've been to. I've trained in Australia, Sweden and my current club is here in Germany. Although it's the best one I've been to, I wish they would break more then the "neo-traditionalist Shotokan/Karate" and focus more on the traditional karate. Shotokan for me is becoming more and more a term for watered down version of traditional karate. What grappling techniques have you found? Patrick McCarthy found 72 grappling techniques in certain Okinawan kata. He reversed engineered them, dug them out of the past, and challenged Karate to rethink itself. Wouldn't it be great if Shotokan could manage a feat like that? I'm always looking for new perspectives and angles. On the 1st October I'll be at a Goju-Ryu/Uchi-Ryu seminar, 29th Nov there's a Patrick McCarthy seminar (which basically made me rethink Shotokan, again). Yes, I guess you're right. I'm currently going to every seminar outside of Shotokan that I can. My goal is to add value to Shotokan, so when I teach it I can still call it Shotokan, and not MyStyle-Ryu. The way I see it is. In the beginning there was karate. Masters mixed and learnt techniques. Eventually there was mass interest in the art. To make it reach the masses it needed to be changed. To appeal to the japanese and okinawans on a grand scale, and to go with the time, karate training changed to what it is now. That goes for many styles of karate. That vehicle was good, it taught and introduced basic karate to many people. But there must be something beyond that. Karate to me is an umbrella term for all styles ranging from Goju-Ryu to Kyokushin to XYZ. Modern karate training is like primary and high school. When you pass through that stage, you will be left with yourself. It took me 20 years to realise that Shotokan as it is taught today, on a mass scale, is a dead end for my karate development. Its use as an introduction to karate is great. Now it just reminds me of Henry Ford's idea of mass production. Karate robots in lines, with people unwilling to look outside and push it a little. They'd rather just continue to practise it and give the responsible over to someone else. Every club I've been to puts "self-defense" on its flyers when recruiting new people. Yet, where is it? (my thoughts are flying, hopefully there my point is coming across)

Very true comment, but how to you react when you're faster and stronger at kumite than everyone in the club, when they won't even though a decent "one punch, one kill" punch? Or how about when you have and idea in a kata that could give you more power and impact, but the motion or aesthetics are wrong? There comes a point in training when the school class lining up in rows and copying the sensei is just too limiting. Everyone's kata is different, because everybody is slightly different. I don't think tradition Shotokan was as rigid as today's, and its roots definitely weren't. My post is not really a complaint, but a challenge. Let's do a year's class of shotokan without zenkutsu dachi/oi zuki/gedan barai. Let's dig out the weird, most obscure parts of a kata and do bag training with the technique. i.e. Gedan otoshi zuki or even teisho uke! I read in a post recently some Kyokushin karateka said Shotokan karateka never use elbows or knees. Why not? They in the katas. Let's put more into Shotokan, we want more to come out (Law of Return)

Sorry to dig this out from the archives, but this is the most incredible post I have read in a very long time. I could underline and sign just about every sentence. Thank you for sharing this, I should actually print it out and give it to the people at my club.