shogeri

Traditional Wushu, is defined as Martial Arts, or similar to Budo (way of the warrior) in Japanese. Contemporary Wushu, is what Jade T. describes as modern dance with acrobatic flair rooted in the forms of various Chinese Martial Arts.

Slightly, sure. To me, so long as an organization or school teaches (preserves) the original goju ryu kata throug Myagi, along with the philosophy of Goju Ryu, and principles of fighting specific to Goju Ryu, then that is the bare minimum in which to preserve the art itself. There will be variances in certain techniques. However, when one something doesn't work (as in the past), or people continue getting hurt, then usually that means someone has deviated from the original intent of the style. When executing techniques, the end result should be so close, that only the Master's can tell the difference. That's what it means to be authentic as time goes on. Opinions will vary, but are still respected. Semtantics are just that. Semantics. Syllabus order has alot to do with personal training style, and the instructors own capacity to teach, and ascertain what is working and what is not. We reap what we sow.

My lineage, including video correspondence, and kumite training with other Black Belts of Goju Ryu outside of the following is: Higashionna, Kanryo...Naha, Okinawa. -----Miyagi, Chojun.............Naha, Okinawa. --------Toguchi, Seikichi.........Naha, Okinawa. ----------Takahata, Ichiro..........Tokyo, Japan... -------------o Sensei Takahata brought Shorei-Kan Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate to Oklahoma in 1968. My Sensei was Tom Haggerty (5th Dan) out of Midwest City, Oklahoma, from 1988 to 1992. o Sensei Haggerty was a student of o Sensei Takahata during the late 60's and early 70's, of whom, also owned and operated the the Samurai Restaurant here in OKC for 23 years. ...that is my lineage, which is more specific than I had posted in another thread. [/b]

There are stages in life which often lead us to a time in-between. An "in the meantime" if you will. You have recently been there it seems, and perhaps you feel that you have learned all there is to to know, and yet it failed to satisfy you. Or perhaps something is not as you expected it to be. So then comes the lingering moments that lead to burn-out if gone unchecked or unnoticed. The good part is that you took notice. Take up some research, and study the Martial Arts academically in your spare time. Every time you go back you should focus more, not on what you are learning, but why and how such things truly advance you as a Martial Artist and a person. Since if it is doesn't advance you in some way, or you do not gain or receive anything from doing something, then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Move on, move forward, and move up. You need fulfillment, but you also need utility. You will get out of it, what you put in. Martial Artist should have alot of self-motivation. You must constantly rekindle the flame, and continue marching on, so that you can easily obtain your re-established goals. Make every day a new day. Finish every day with determination to do better, and smile to share with someone. Train hard, train smart, train like you mean it. Good luck!

I would go with Hung Gar Kung Fu, or perhaps Wing Chun, or Taijiquan Chinese Boxing. However, since the choice is between Shorin Ryu and Kendo, I would choose Karate, since that will give a sense of the basics that are applicable to many things. You can adapt your kata to that of holding knives, and or sticks or double sticks. You can even adapt a kata to use a bo (staff). Kendo in many respects is a subset or furtherance of karate. They are budo, and will teach similar things. True karate is adaptable and malleable. It evolves. Kendo pretty much will remain the same. Just some thoughts..others will vary.

Growth plates are still there in females up to 16, and in young men up to 18. Here is an excert from NAIMS (National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases) website. "What Is the Growth Plate? The growth plate, also known as the epiphyseal plate or physis, is the area of growing tissue near the end of the long bones in children and adolescents. Each long bone has at least two growth plates: one at each end. The growth plate determines the future length and shape of the mature bone. When growth is complete--sometime during adolescence--the growth plates close and are replaced by solid bone. Who Gets Growth Plate Injuries? These injuries occur in children and adolescents. The growth plate is the weakest area of the growing skeleton, weaker than the nearby ligaments and tendons that connect bones to other bones and muscles. In a growing child, a serious injury to a joint is more likely to damage a growth plate than the ligaments that stabilize the joint. An injury that would cause a sprain in an adult can be associated with a growth plate injury in a child. Injuries to the growth plate are fractures. They comprise 15 percent of all childhood fractures. They occur twice as often in boys as in girls, with the greatest incidence among 14- to 16-year-old boys and 11- to 13-year-old girls. Older girls experience these fractures less often because their bodies mature at an earlier age than boys. As a result, their bones finish growing sooner, and their growth plates are replaced by stronger, solid bone. Approximately half of all growth plate injuries occur in the lower end of the outer bone of the forearm (radius) at the wrist. These injuries also occur frequently in the lower bones of the leg (tibia and fibula). They can also occur in the upper leg bone (femur) or in the ankle, foot, or hip bone. What Causes Growth Plate Injuries? While growth plate injuries are caused by an acute event, such as a fall or a blow to a limb, chronic injuries can also result from overuse. For example, a gymnast who practices for hours on the uneven bars, a long-distance runner, or a baseball pitcher perfecting his curve ball can all have growth plate injuries. In one large study of growth plate injuries in children, the majority resulted from a fall, usually while running or playing on furniture or playground equipment. Competitive sports, such as football, basketball, softball, track and field, and gymnastics, accounted for one-third of all injuries. Recreational activities, such as biking, sledding, skiing, and skateboarding, accounted for one-fifth of all growth plate fractures, while car, motorcycle, and all-terrain-vehicle accidents accounted for only a small percentage of fractures involving the growth plate. Whether an injury is acute or due to overuse, a child who has pain that persists or affects athletic performance or the ability to move or put pressure on a limb should be examined by a doctor. A child should never be allowed or expected to "work through the pain." Children who participate in athletic activity often experience some discomfort as they practice new movements. Some aches and pains can be expected, but a child’s complaints always deserve careful attention. Some injuries, if left untreated, can cause permanent damage and interfere with proper growth of the involved limb. Although many growth plate injuries are caused by accidents that occur during play or athletic activity, growth plates are also susceptible to other disorders, such as bone infection, that can alter their normal growth and development." I suppose one should exercise caution in full contact throwdowns, or locks. Along with boardbreaking, and stretching, and even kicking or striking the bag.

I have and always will follow the quality along with quantity method. If a student has: 1) The proper mental attitude 2) Is mature for their age 3) Achieved the best physical results 4) Learned the technique(s) and the principle(s) behind it 5) Shown an understanding of the concepts of dynamic fighting 6) The talent and learning capacity to move forward Then indeed they are ready to go to the next level, up to and including Black Belt, regardless of the time put toward it. That said, there should still be a minimum standard in place for the time period in which the student is allowed to advanced to the next level. Not for tradition sake, rather to allow the basics to sink in over time. I could teach a person how to fight, and get into shape in 18 months. And if fighting to win is what they want, then they have to work for it. This would be a challenge that takes alot of personal sacrifice in regards to time, effort, and mental training and so on. A Black Belt to me, signifies that a person has not only the technical skills, but more importantly, the principle fighting methods in which to adapt to many different situations and opponents. Thus, it is not equivalent to a bachelor degree at the regular belt level in which you could take it off shelf, and hand it to them. Rather, it is a certification of ability and accomplishment, that represents to others your aptitude for being able to defend yourself effectively, efficiently, dynamically, and successfully. Again that is a Black Belt to me, and that is really all a person needs in terms of learning how to defend themselves on a fighting level. So 18 months is not unreasonable. At the shodan level, it becomes an associates degree, in that we add a little more time, and more principles and a few more techniques. A year perhaps. Maybe just 6 months, at a minimum, in case the person excels or something. This brings the total to 24 months at a minimum. Same as the average associates degree. Then comes the Nidan level, it is here that a person is, to me, a Baccalaureate of the particular system. They further themselves as a teaching in training. In academics, they say that the Bachelor degree itself is worth up to 2 years of experience at the most. In MA, a year minimum will suffice. At Sandan level, they hold a Master's degree. This is the teaching level in academics, and should be in MA as well. At Yondan / Yodan / Shodan level, it would be considered a Doctorates. Anything above that is just icing on the cake. Perhaps at the Godan level, they would be considered head of the style or founder of the style. Of course such is possible on the Shidan level as well. So through 3rd dan or sandan, it could take 3 years of solid, fierce training. Some people might stretch this out to 5 to 7 years. Time and quality in regards to the above ideal ranking system is expediated in private training, seminar, along with an abundance of one on one training. This removes such from the McDojo stain or qualification. A McDojo is either a school that hands out rank (at any level) based on technique alone, or time alone, or sometimes based upon ability to pay large amounts of money at once or over a period of time. The quality of what they teach is also scrutinized, but not as much as the means by which a person received recognition within such system. A school that turns out Black Belts as a business, or makes robots out of people, is a McDojo to me. A system that can prove itself, regardless of what negative things are said about it, is not a necessarily a McDojo. My above proposed ranking system is geared toward a combative, fighting principle system, and not one heavily glazed with technique. When there are more techniques and arrangements to learn, of course the timeline is increase. The point is at those levels in Black Belt, the capacity to win in situations increases, and the techniques are further explored, applied, and principally understood. ----------- Just some brief thoughts.

correct!

I am possibly repeating myself, in that Tensho was taught at the Shodan level in our school as well. I learned sanchin earlier on (the original movement, but with closed hands), but do not recall if it was originally taught at a later rank or not. If it was, then it was at sempai level (brown). If I ever implement it within my own style, then it will be at a beginner level, right along with Qigong 2 Circle Standing. Under the goju ryu versus shorin ryu thread I posted this link: http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html It has many umcompressed videos to some traditional kata. Later!

"I have only studied Shotokan kata via video training. Again Shotokan has since evolved from it's Naha Te Roots, and is a creation owned by Funakoshi. It has emerged as a Japanese Martial Art with Chinese Kempo roots. " In regards to my own words, instead of Naha Te, I meant Shuri-Te. And of course, these are just my thoughts, as I am certainly no authority on this particular system or it's true essence. "Funakoshi trained most of his life in Okinawa under itosu , he was not exposed to Naha te enough to use it in his interpretation of karate " That is, in general the point I was trying to make. However, in regards to which is quicker, in an adaptive manner to various situations, I would have to choose Goju Ryu, as within it, lies the circular methods and in-fighting techniques as implemented by Ch'uan Fa or Chinese Kempo. Whereas with Shotokan, it maintains a more linear approach to offensive and defensive maneuvering. It is difficult to separate out the originating martial artist from the martial art itself. Culture, economics, physical stature along with strengths and weaknesses in technique and principle, the social and geological environment, and so on, all play a role in the foundation of a style in it's early stages. From Funakoshi's past we find that: "Sensei Gichin Funakoshi was born in Shuri, Okinawa in 1868. As a young boy he was trained by two masters of that time in slightly different styles. From Master Yasutsune Azato he was instructed in "Shuri-te" and from Master Yasutsune Itosu he was instructed "Naha-te". It would be from the joining of these two styles that would one day become Shotokan Karate. He moved to Japan to popularize the 'Way of The Empty Hand' (literal translation of "Karate") in early 1922. Established his own Dojo and began to teach Karate to many professional people in Tokyo. The J.K.A. was formed and became a centre of excellence in the Karate world. From there highly trained Instructors were sent out to different areas of the world to promote Karate. " Again, I personally believe that Shotokan, relies heavily upon the Shuri-Te system. But it has and continually evolves, perhaps in some way, moving back to it's origin, but doing so, using many different paths. I mention Shotokan, since it has both Shorei Ryu and Shorin Ryu roots. But in reality we are speaking of Shorin Ryu, of which the following lineage (one of them), describes who and what: "As a result, around the mid to late 1700's a Chinese diplomat named, Kusanku, moved to Okinawa for 6 years. During his stay he began teaching the Chinese system of Ch'uan-Fa. As these influences became introduced into the different local martial arts, they gradually became known as Tode (or Chinese Hand). By the 1800's these styles were again re-named. Shuri and Tomari-Te formed the basis for Okinawan Sho Rin Ryu, while Naha-Te formed Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu. Although Kusanku is often believed to be a culmination of different Chinese officers, he is often referred to as one person. As is recorded, Tode Sakugawa began studying under Kusanku-sensei. The teachings of Kusanku enabled Sakugawa to combine the essence of both Te and Chinese Boxing principles. These principles form the basis of modern day Shorin Ryu." ----------------------------- The following is a record of the lineage of Shorin Ryu Karatedo. At least one of them. Each master featured was the direct instructor of the next. Listed art the names of the kata's each instructor was either known for or even introduced into the system. "On the left side is the master, and on the right side is their contribution. Kusanku = Kusanku Kata Tode Sakugawa = Passai Kata Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura = Passai Kata & Chinto Ankoh Yasutsune Itosu = 5 Pinan Kata, Naihanchi Nidan, Naihanchi Sandan, Passai Sho, Passai Dai, Kusanku Sho, Kusanku Dai. Itosu-sensei was such an incredible instructor, that in 1903, he became the first martial artist to introduce karate-do into the public schools of Okinawa. His students include Gichin Funakoshi-sensei. It was not until the late 1800's that Funakoshi-Sensei termed the essence of Te as "Karate-Do" meaning, "The Way of the Empty Hand." Funakoshi-sensei later founded ShotoKan Karate. Chosin Chibana = Gojushiho Kata As Sho Rin Ryu began to branch further and further, and other styles evolved from Itosu-sensei's karate. An attempt was made by one of Itosu-sensei's students to preserve his instructors teachings. Itosu-sensei's most loyal and dedicated student, Chosin Chibana-sensei, renamed the style Kobayshi-Ryu (Shorin Ryu - "Young Forest Style") to indicate that he taught Itosu-sensei's original style. Shuguro Nakazato = Shorin Ryu Shorin Kan Chibana-sensei's most notable student, Shuguro Nakazato-sensei, who became the head of Shorin Ryu-Shorin Kan branch of Kobayashi. Chibana-sensei's other most notable student, Katsuya Miyahira-sensei, became the head of Shorin Ryu-Shido Kan branch of Kobayashi Nakazato-sensei first began training in Shito Ryu Karate-do (1935-40), under Seiichi Iju-sensei. While training in Shito Ryu, Nakazato-sensei also began training in Kobudo, under Seiro Tonaki-sensei (from 1936-40). Nakazato-sensei then entered the Japanese Army, it was during this time that he taught bayonet techniques. By the end of World War II, Nakazato-sensei returned to Okinawa, and became a disciple of Chibana-sensei. In 1951 Nakazato-sensei opened a dojo together with Chibana-sensei, naming it Chibana Dai Ichi Dojo. Then in 1955, he opened the Sho Rin Kan dojo, which he presently operates. Until 1958, Nakazato trained in bojitsu under Tonaki-sensei's son, Masami Chinen-sensei, of the now famed Yamani-Chinen Ryu Bojitsu style. Nakazato-sensei believed that Chibana-sensei had taught Anko Itosu-sensei's style without altering it. However, because Itosu-sensei's style had little kumite, Nakazato-sensei took it upon himself to add the Kihon and Fukyu kata. Tadashi Yamashita Hanshi Sensei Tadashi Yamashita has dedicated over 40 years of his life to the practice Okinawan Karatedo and Kobudo. A highly respected man in all circles of the martial arts, Yamashita-Sensei is sought after for karatedo and kobudo seminars from all over the world. He currently retains the rank of ninth degree black belt in both karatedo and kobudo. Sensei is also the President and Director of U.S. Shorin-Ryu Karate Association, and U.S.A. President of the Zen Okinawan Kobudo Association. Yamashita-sensei has traveled as far as South America and regularly visits Greece. Sensei also keeps a close connection with his birthplace of Japan and Okinawa. Not only is Yamashita-Sensei recognized as a leading authority in the martial arts, but his accomplishments also include his study with several notable high ranking masters. These masters include the late Chibana Chosin of Shorin Ryu, and Shuguro Nakazato founder of the Shorin Ryu Shorin Kan. As well as trained directly under the late Shinpo Matayoshi, founder of the Zen Okinawan Kobudo Renmei. Well known for his explosive open hand techniques, Sensei combines many progressive fighting tactics with traditional aspects of karatedo, thus resulting in a devastating fighting system. Sensei's dynamic fighting system known as "Suikendo," translates to, "fist flowing like water." This non stopping flowing system of fighting, allows the karateka to simultaneously block and strike his opponent with blinding speed and accuracy. " - From http://yamashitakarate.com/YamashitaSensei.htm#Hanshi%20Yamashita ----------------------------- Here is an awesome link that allows you to download many of the kata we are speaking of. They are not compressed, however, thus are large in size. http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html On this site above, there is a kata called Fukyūgata Ni, which holds many similarities to our kata called Gekisai Kata Dai Ni. Which was a Green Belt level kata. In sum, to learn both Shorin Ryu, and Goju Ryu, in a sense one would have the complete Okinawan Te or Te-Do system from which to pull a vast amount of resources from. Perhaps Matsubayashi Ryu would be an answer to this??? There is also one called Chinto, of which our higher Black Belts learned as well. Using this site, which I just found, I now see the many similarities at the higher level. With the below definition of Goju Ryu, we get further insight into it's principle core: "Goju Ryu Karatedo is said to display the oldest martial arts traditions and movements. The system is based on the concept of hard (go) and soft (ju), always in consistent harmony one equalizing the other. The art combines traditional Okinawan techniques with both internal and external Chinese principles. The soft (ju), internal Chinese style concentrates upon circular movements and the development of chi (vital energy), while external, hard (go) principle rely upon physical strength. The combination gives Goju Ryu its beauty, disciplined movements, grace, and flowing form. Anyone who believes that Goju Ryu is merely a beautiful style with little of the art of defense, he need only watch two Goju Ryu practitioners square off in sparring (kumite) where Goju-ryu is a close-range, infighting system that concentrates on efficiency of movements. " - http://www.gojuryu.neu.edu/karate.html Also, "The use of "tensho" or "soft" techniques in Goju-ryu reveals an obvious influence from the Fukien White Crane style (known as "Fujian Bai Er" in Chinese). These are normally taught at the Brown belt to Sempai level of training." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goju-Ryu Goju Ryu, uses many in-close circular techniques, that employ trapping, locking, and or control. Another Ch'uan Fa rooted principle. The following is from wikipedia, and I agree that Shorin Ryu has many branches, more so in some respects than Goju Ryu has, but I am not 100 percent positive on that statement. "Shorin-ryu is one of the major modern Okinawan martial arts. Said to have been founded by Sokon Matsumura during the 1800s, Shorin-ryu combines elements of the traditional Okinawan fighting styles Shuri-te and Tomari-te. Shorin-ryu is widely considered to be one of the two major modern styles of Okinawan karate, along with Goju-ryu, which is rooted in the other traditional Okinawan style, Naha-te. Sokon Matsumura was a renowned warrior of his time; he has been called the Miyamoto Musashi of Okinawa. However, while he is often referred to as the "founder" of Shorin-ryu, he did not invent all the components the style, and perhaps didn't ever call it "Shorin-ryu" himself. It is quite possible that he synthesized his knowledge of Okinawan arts with Chinese fighting styles that he learned on his travels and taught it as a coherent system to some eager students, who subsequently refined it, labeled it, and passed it on. (Highlighting Shorin-ryu's Chinese heritage is the fact that "Shorin" is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese, "Shaolin"; "ryu" means "way", or "style".) Along with being a style on its own, Shorin-ryu is also perhaps the most influential single ancestor of modern Japanese karate. One of Matsumura's best-known students, Anko (or "Ankoh") Itosu became a great practitioner and teacher of Okinawan karate and developed the five Pinan kata, which are now taught not only in Shorin-ryu, but also in a wide variety of Okinawan, Japanese and derived martial arts. It is also believed by some that the first two Pinan kata were actually developed by Matsumura and the last three by Itosu. In addition, Itosu and another student of Matsumura's named Anko Azato were among the primary influences on a fellow Okinawan named Gichin Funakoshi. Funakoshi introduced his Okinawan martial arts to mainland Japan in 1922, and in subsequent decades was instrumental in developing what he termed simply "karate" or "karate-do" as a popular Japanese sport and art. (The style Funakoshi taught on mainland Japan is now called Shotokan karate.) Shorin-ryu is generally characterized by natural breathing, natural (narrow, high) stances, and direct -- rather than circular -- movements. Shorin-ryu practitioners will say that deep stances are not important for powerful moves, and that only correct motion matters. In fact, Okinawan traditionalists often claim that deep, wide stances are a development of Japanese-styled karate, and useful only for show. There is not now, and perhaps has never been, a single unified school of "Shorin-ryu," although many dojos use the term for simplicity's sake. Some of the best known schools of Shorin-ryu include Shobayashi, Matsumura Orthodox Shorin-ryu, Kobayashi Shorin-ryu (Shorinkan), and Matsubayashi-ryu, but there are many others, most with long and distinguished histories that trace back to Matsumura and his students." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorin-Ryu ---------------------------------- Anything in quotes is from the another site. The other words are what I believe or have read. Thus, just as Shaolin Kung Fu, has it's own circular and linear styles, so too does Okinawan Karate. Now that was alot to soak in...I just couldn't stop. Enjoy!

The primary weakness I refer to is that he short-changed many effective styles, since many times, he only scratched the surface through academic research. Dan Inosanto, has noted that Bruce was an awesome fighter, and great teacher, with a natural gift, but that his over-eagerness (or need) to prove that the Martial Arts are simple and not complex, sometimes overcame him, and he oversimplified other systems as well. A secondary weakness, was that he was just a man, and, any fighter of equal caliber, could have beat Him under the proper conditions (or vice versa). Albeit, shoulda, coulda woulda...Don't mean much in real life scenarios. Some tidbit thoughts...

My gear, a groin cup, and plenty of humility.

Here is some common knowledge history - known and found all over the place, including the web: "Okinawa, Being at the crossroads of major trading routes, its significance as a "resting spot" was first discovered by the Japanese. It later developed as a trade center for southeastern Asia, trading with Japan, China, Indo China, Thailand, Malaysia, Borneo and the Philippines. In its earliest stages, the martial art known as "karate" was an indigenous form of closed fist fighting which was developed in Okinawa and called Te, or 'hand'. Weapons bans, imposed on the Okinawans at various points in their history, encouraged the refinement of empty-hand techniques and, for this reason, was trained in secret until modern times. Further refinement came with the influence of other martial arts brought by nobles and trade merchants to the island. Te continued to develop over the years, primarily in three Okinawan cities: Shuri, Naha and Tomari. Each of these towns was a centre to a different sect of society: kings and nobles, merchants and business people, and farmers and fishermen, respectively. For this reason, different forms of self-defense developed within each city and subsequently became known as Shuri-te, Naha-te and Tomari-te. Collectively they were called Okinawa-Te or Tode, 'Chinese hand'. Gradually, karate was divided into two main groups: Shorin-ryu which developed around Shuri and Tomari and Shorei-ryu which came from the Naha area. "It is important to note, however, that the towns of Shuri, Tomari, Naha are only a few miles apart, and that the differences between their arts were essentially ones of emphasis, not of kind. Beneath these surface differences, both the methods and aims of all Okinawan karate are one in the same" (Howard, 1991). Gichin Funakoshi goes further to suggest that these two styles were developed based on different physical requirements. Shorin-ryu was quick and linear with natural breathing while Shorei-ryu emphasized steady, rooted movements with breathing in synchrony with each movement. Interestingly, this concept of two basic styles also exist in kung-fu with a similar division of characteristics. " "In Okinawa, for a long time, using any kinds of weapons was prohibited because of a policy of prohibiting weapons. For that reason, they had to invent toshukuken, the way to fight without a weapon. This was especially true in the beginning of the 17th century since it was thought that fighting martial arts, referring to Chinese kempo, was invented among Ryukyu [Okinawa] samurai because their weapons were banned. In Okinawa, before it was called karate, it had two names, one was Naha-te and the other was Shuri-te. These are the names of regions. The source of present day styles are these two te. Naha-te was invented by Tono [Higaonna] Kanryo Shihan, who went to Fuku-ken-sho [also Fuken-sho, Fujian Province] in China and learned Chinese kempo, which was combined with Naha-te and named Shorei-ryu. Shuri-te was represented by Matsumura Soken Shihan. It has been separated as Matsu-Toukan-ryu, Shito-ryu, and Wado-ryu. The history of Goju-ryu begins with Miyagi Chojun Shihan who is an unparalleled saint [fuseishutsu no kensei]. -------------- Separate Notes: Naha-Te ultimately became known as Shorei Ryu (inspirational style) and evolved into the Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu styles of modern karate. The use of soft circlular blocks in Goju and Uechi Ryu make them similar although Uechi Ryu Shows a much stronger Chinese influence. Shorin-ryu was quick and linear with natural breathing while Shorei-ryu emphasized steady, rooted movements with breathing in synchrony with each movement. -------------- Miyagi Shihan was born in Meiji era 20 [1888] to a famous house in Naha, Okinawa. He had practiced karate since he was 14-years old with Tono Kanryo Shihan. In Meiji 36 [1904], when he was 16 years old, he was ordered to go to Fuku-ken-sho, China, and practiced Chinese kempo. In China, Miyagi received rough and strict training. At the same time he studied theory from old books. After he came back from China, he compared Chinese kempo and Okinawa-te. Miyagi adopted his unique and effective way of breathing, which he called ikibuki [also ibuki], a way of preliminary exercise that is necessary for mastering karate-do. Ikibuki is also a supportive scientific exercise that is related to the structure of the body and its movement. After that, Miyagi continued studying and reorganized both Chinese kempo and Okinawa-te's merits and added his own ideas. This is how Goju-ryu was born. Goju-ryu's name was extracted from the Bubishi, a Chinese documentary record." - https://www.fightingarts.com "...if the kata are to be classified, then they fall broadly into either the Shorei-ryu or the Shorin-ryu. The former emphasizes primarily development of physical strength and muscular power and is impressive in its forcefulness. In contrast, the Shorin-ryu (Shorin "school") is very light and quick, with rapid motions to the front and back, which may be likened to the swift flight of the falcon. The Tekki Kata, as well as Jutte, Hangetsu, Jion, among others, belong to Shorei-ryu; whereas the Heian Kata and Bassai, Kwanku, Empi, Gankaku, and others are associated with the Shorin-ryu. - Gichin Funakoshi" ------------------------------------------ "Despite the differences between Funakoshi Gichin's and Miyagi Chojun's definitions of internal versus external schools of boxing, Funakoshi's Shorin-ryu versus Shorei-ryu classification of karate-do kata remained unchallenged until 1938, when karate-do pioneer and Shito-ryu founder Mabuni Kenwa wrote Kobou Kenpo Karate-do Nyumon with co-author Nakasone Genwa. In it, Mabuni took issue with the Shorin-ryu versus Shorei-ryu distinction and argued that it was an inaccurate and inappropriate means of classification. Mabuni felt that Funakoshi had simply created the distinction himself with respect to kata and went so far as to show how Funakoshi had changed the designation of certain kata from Shorin-ryu to Shorei-ryu and vice versa from one publication to another (Table 1). Mabuni further argued that such a means of classifying kata had never existed in Okinawa karate-do, nor was it ever used by karate-do's most famous proponents (Mabuni, 1938, p. 71). Indeed, the only tradition that had been handed down was a loose reference to two broad based systems, Shorei-ryu and Shorin-ryu. Referring to his own personal research on the Bubishi2 in his 1934 publication Seipai no Kenkyu (Research into the Kata Seipai), Mabuni suggested that the Shorei-ryu classification may have possibly come from a reference to Shoreiji-ryu and Shorinji-ryu found within the Bubishi but concluded that it was unsuitable to classify karate-do kata in such a manner. Mabuni himself opted to classify kata according to the teacher who disseminated the respective tradition. For example, Mabuni listed the kata as follows: Naihanchi (1 to 3), Pinan (1 to 5), Rohai (1 to 3), Kusanku (sho/dai), Passai (sho/dai), Gojushiho, Jitte, Jin, Jion, Chinto, Chinte and Wansu were classified as Itosu lineage kata. The kata Sanchin, Tensho, Seisan, Seiunchin, Seipai, Sanseru, Suparempei, Sochin, Saifa and Kururunfa were classified as Higashionna lineage kata. Finally, Aragaki Seisho's kata, Niseishi, Unsu and Sochin were classified as Aragaki lineage kata (Mabuni, 1938, p. 74). Other works, such as Motobu Choki's Okinawa Kenpo Toudi Jutsu Kumite (1926) and Watashi no Todi Jutsu (1932) simply listed examples of the extant kata found on Okinawa (Motobu 1926, p. 6; 1932, p. 4). Despite the criticism leveled by Mabuni, the use of the terms Shorei and Shorin remained and were adopted by a later generation of karate-do practitioners and researchers. A clear example can be seen with Kyoukushin karate-do founder Oyama Masatatsu, a student of Funakoshi Gichin in his book This is Karate." - http://seinenkai.com/articles/mckenna/mckenna-kata.html I would say reference the entire mckenna article for some more insight into this particular subject. As a researcher of many styles, I would have to conclude that there are similarities in Goju Ryu and Shorei-Ryu in regards to certain principles. I would also say this as a person who studied up through 2nd Dan in Okinawan Goju Ryu. In addition, the kata, and the training methods differ enough in which the two really are not comparable. Shotokan, perhaps is better suited for comparison and contrast, as it works well with the Shorei Ryu system, and is often paired with it. I have only studied Shotokan kata via video training. Again Shotokan has since evolved from it's Naha Te Roots, and is a creation owned by Funakoshi. It has emerged as a Japanese Martial Art with Chinese Kempo roots. Whereas with Goju Ryu, in regards to maintaining the roots of Okinawan Te, has done so successfully. Not sure if that helps...But I tried...

Joined: 16 Feb 2005 Posts: 310 Location: Chickasha, OK I believe that most of us agree that we should only defend ourselves when necessary, and use only that force in which to end a situation appropriately in a kind, just, and merciful way. Sometimes those situations will work out, and sometimes they will not. I am an ordained christian minister, and a martial art instructor. I study both of these fields extensively. I just thought I would say some things. Below is a post I made to a Christian Minister forum I belong to: I also believe that most of us realize the difference between self-defense (preservation), and violence. Here are some of my own understandings or definitions of the two: Self-defense is the means by which we take action in order to defend our lives, and or our liberties. Thus, self-defense is based upon justificiation. Violence are unwarranted, unjustified, or unnecessary, actions against another in an effort to end, decrease, or annihilate another persons being(physical, emotional, mental or spiritual), or the liberties thereof. Here are some Scriptural references to wars and battles, and when we look into these stories, we find these actions are either supported, and or justified by God. Numbers 31:4-6 (King James Version) "4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war . 5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand." Micah 2:7-9 (King James Version) "9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong . 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. " Daniel 9:25-27 (King James Version) "26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary ; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined . " Ezekiel 39:19-21 (King James Version) "20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD. 21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them." Jeremiah 38:3-5 (King James Version) "3 Thus saith the LORD, This city shall surely be given into the hand of the king of Babylon's army, which shall take it . " Psalm 144 (King James Version) "1 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: 2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. 3 LORD, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him! " Proverbs 20:17-19 (King James Version) "17 Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel. 18 Every purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war. " 2 Chronicles 6:33-35 (King James Version) "33 Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as doth thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name. 34 If thy people go out to war against their enemies by the way that thou shalt send them, and they pray unto thee toward this city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name; 35 Then hear thou from the heavens their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause. " Zechariah 10:4-6 (King James Version) "4 Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together. 5 And they shall be as mighty men, which tread down their enemies in the mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the LORD is with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded. 6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them." Zechariah 12:7-9 (King James Version) "7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. " Deuteronomy 20:1 When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies , and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee , which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. Joshua 22:33 And the thing pleased the children of Israel; and the children of Israel blessed God, and did not intend to go up against them in battle , to destroy the land wherein the children of Reuben and Gad dwelt. Judges 20:18 And the children of Israel arose, and went up to the house of God, and asked counsel of God, and said, Which of us shall go up first to the battle against the children of Benjamin? And the LORD said, Judah shall go up first. 1 Samuel 29:9 And Achish answered and said to David, I know that thou art good in my sight, as an angel of God: notwithstanding the princes of the Philistines have said, He shall not go up with us to the battle. 1 Chronicles 5:20 And they were helped against them, and the Hagarites were delivered into their hand, and all that were with them: for they cried to God in the battle, and he was intreated of them; because they put their trust in him. 1 Chronicles 14:15 And it shall be, when thou shalt hear a sound of going in the tops of the mulberry trees, that then thou shalt go out to battle: for God is gone forth before thee to smite the host of the Philistines. 2 Chronicles 18:5 Therefore the king of Israel gathered together of prophets four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall we go to Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for God will deliver it into the king's hand. 2 Chronicles 25:8 But if thou wilt go, do it; be strong for the battle: God shall make thee fall before the enemy: for God hath power to help, and to cast down. Psalm 140:7 O GOD the Lord, the strength of my salvation, thou hast covered my head in the day of battle. Hosea 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God , and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Obadiah 1:1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle. Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. John 18:35-37 (King James Version) "35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." If there is another way out of a situation then take it. Your mind is one of your most powerful weapons. Considered it one edge of a sword. The other edge is the Lord. Without God (that is divine justice and mercy), then you will never be able to use your sword in a manner befitting the sword. You could do harm, but your effectiveness in doing so is hampered. I believe that if you are going to learn to defend youself, then learn true fighting skills along with the principles of fighting, rather than just techniques. The same can be said for your belief and love of God. Go unto Him, and abide in Him. Realize that we are changed through Christ, and peace, wisdom, and righteousness is ours for we are in Him, and He is in each of us. Use this knowledge and experience wisely in all situations, including those that may required you to save a life. Those are some more tidbits...

Bruce Lee's systemic approach was founded upon the principles of the martial arts. He did not want people to study beneath a system with prearranged methods, and millions of techniques. He taught people how to be adaptive fighters, not robots. His goal was not to have obedient little paupers, waiting for their turn at the helm come promotion time into the black belt hall of fame. He was a great fighter. But this was also his greatest weakness in many ways. I respect him for the direction he gave to many.

I ditto on that too...lol

I agree with the word adjustment, as it would fit into my own definition of what blocking should really be for.

I usually capitalize, but not always. Perhaps due to the fact that in some sense we are all practicing the way of Martial Arts. just as one would capitalize Wushu, or Budo. The the paths are different, many of us will end up in the same location.

Below the knee - you could try raising your leg as well. Or in this instance, if you wanted to, you could kick it away. Above the knee to waist line level, the inside-outside knee technique (mentioned by Goju-boi) works as well as the one mentioned at the top of this post. Do both of these as you move onward toward your opponent. This also takes from the opportunity of kicking as well.

All stances can be used wrong, of course. Which could cause injury. The primary concern with these two stances is indeed based upon knee strain. This could be especially true with children, of whom, their growth plates haven't fully developed. With kibadachi (wide or deep), I believe it takes more concentration and effort in which to do it correctly. I can see shortening kibadachi to where it is slightly wider than Heikodachi, which is a similar parallel stance of shoulder to shoulder length. Most people modify the stance width and height in order to get to comfortable position. This is natural, and acceptable. With children though, special care needs to be taken since they have a different skeletal makeup through adolescense, which is based upon their bodies constantly changing internally, and growing in size. ---------- Just some more brief thoughts...

I define a block as: a temporary transitional action in which one person deflects, parry's, side-steps, or controls the opponent in order to gain a target zone in which to strike. In sparring, use enough force to redirect the strike. Or you could try a parry or sidestep. Why waste energy and or time trying to hit power with power, when your purpose is to win by points? Time is the most valuable resource in tournament or sparring matches. For that matter it is important out on the street as well, since fights should not go on for long periods of time, as this invites too many variables into the equation. -------------- However, on the street, those blocks should actually be a concentrated effort to debilitate your opponent. It is actually okay to strike at limbs in order to cripple your opponent. A smart opponent wants you to just block, that way, they set you up. Your main focus is to not do what they expect you to do, or that they lead you into doing. Conditioning yourself to 'make a block a strike' is one thing. However, you shouldn't have to condition your exterior structure in order to 'take a blow' while simultaneously hurting your opponent. This is not economic motion. A strike is a strike, but it needs to be directed, with purpose, and intent. Focusing on either manipulating a target range, or creating a target, another. Forcefully open up or close your opponent. You do this by redirecting their center away from yours. Remember all movement is telegraphed in some way or the other. Train your mind to constantly realize this one concept. Side step along with a slight body pivot away from range of the strike is usually the first step in avoiding strikes. Step in and follow your opponent from that moment on. Be prepared for the opponent to follow through with a second strike, mainly by striking immediately after their strike is deflected or avoided. Be thoughtfully aggressive in your attempt. That is use intention, not fear, as your primary anchor. Do not spar or fight to just do something or to pass the time. Spar and fight ~ to win. Then learn something from it as you go, or using hindsight. Expect to get hit. But do not welcome getting hit. That is, especially, do not use the 'duck, cringe, run" technique. Also, do not get trapped into the routine of the One-Two Method either. That is 1) the opponent strikes, and 2) you block. ------------------ Keep both hands up and out, with one partially in the front of the other. Keep moving your hands ever so slightly. This makes it harder for them to know when you are going to strike. Do not bring your hands to close t your body, as this encourages trapping, and or jamming of your hands up against your own body. And of course, do not fully extend them out either. Do not swing your strikes down. Coil and then spring (or pounce) upon your opponent with a strike, thus quickly bringing your hands back into place using your waist, and by slightly relaxing your shoulders back down, etc. Use circular and V-Stepping patterns around and toward your opponent. Do not stand and deliver blocks and punches as done in kata or when doing basic blocks, strikes, and kicking drills. That is ~ be both offensive and defensive - while on the move. Visualize yourself striking through your opponent. The moment they start to move in, you move in. Keep your guard up, and already have a target picked out. Not their back, not their butt. Not their upper shoulders. But an actually target. If you can't get see it, then it's not an immediate target. You may have to open them up (or close them) first. It's okay to test the water, and see how hot or cold it is. That is on occasion you will want to test for their reaction time, speed, and direction. Though it is a test strike, always strike at something tangible, and with meaning (intent). I do agree with many of the posts here, save for some minor things regarding blocking for blocking sake. I agree that footwork is the most crucial aspect of sparring, along with relaxation of your mind and body. You must pull from the deepest part of your brain, and turn on the animal instinct within you, that is based upon survival. You can't do this if your mind is cloudy. You can use legs to block lower leg strikes, just remember to turn your waist, and slightly pick up your knee pushing it away or absorbing the blow. Most of the time you can just avoid the kick. Never back away from a kick. Nine times out of ten this is a setup, for you to get hit with another kick or hand strike. Step in and or under a kick, and or move it yourself, by redirecting it. Remember if you pivot your opponents strike, they might follow through with another spinning strike. Full or partial kicks to stop other kicks is a waste of time, energy, and takes away from your true purpose, and that is to move in, redirect their center, and strike. Continuously, with meaning, and with rapid motion. Again, there were many great posts! Hope mine are helpful... [/i]

I speak of pressure point fighting as used in the system it belongs to and that is taijiquan. They incorporate fajing, which is the powerhouse behind striking to those given areas. Dillman's techniqes are not what I consider combative fighting, rather submissive, pain compliance coupled with joing locking. Death touch is a misnomer. It is really called a Death Strike. I have witnessed knock-out using pressure points, just not the death blows. I am sure if a person sets up the right sequence it works. At least that is what has been passed down to me. I suppose that some idiot should sign a waiver saying that they want such done on them, and to allow a practictioner do it to them, just so that there is documented proof. Just some brief thoughts again...

I just want to clarify that I am speaking of shikodachi which is the outer circular stance, in which the feet are pointed out at a 45 degree angle. Due to many injuries, we did not use the kibadachi, which is the traditional horse stance where both feet are pointed forward. Plus one would have to rotate the foot anyway to go from point a to point b, or to prepare for a block or attack, so it is easier to use the shikodachi version of the "horse" stance. Just needed to add that tidbit.

I agree. The sad part is that crescent kicks are used offensively, but are truly meant to be effective in deflecting low kicks. However, as a youth, I disagreed with my Goju Ryu Sensei with they tried to show it as a defense against a knife attack. They teach the same if TKD as well. The kick itself is not good above waist level.

Inside crescent kick can be effective and safe (swingiing waist, slightly bent knee, striking with ball of foot or bottom of foot or side of foot). Outside crescent, I would have to agree with what both of you said. Even the inside crescent is well telegraphed.