ranger1100ky

Okay... first and foremost... I'll say it up front... I'm more than pleased with my current instructor, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for my original instructor, and the two that followed him after he moved out of state. If I had the chance to train with some different folks, say for a day, or a week... here's the list of those whom I'd like to workout with. 1.) Cynthia Rothrock... I've watched her movies... and what amazes me, is her technique is magnificent, even during the simulated fighting when most technique in film, goes to seed... She's simply AMAZING! 2.) Chuck Norris... With his experience... and his reputation of being an absolutely nice fella... I know I'd enjoy a chance to workout with him. 3.) Jeff Speakman... Now this fella, when I saw him in "The perfect weapon"... showed the most remarkable use of hand techniques I've ever seen... I'm sure I could learn a lot from him. 4.) Hee Il Cho... A very intense martial arts master... and, one who is also well versed in Korean History and Philosophy... I know I'd enjoy either working out with him, or learning more about the history and culture of Korea, and the philosophy aspects of TKD. 5.) Linda Caldwell Lee (Bruce's widow) She would very likely be a remarkable person to meet, and to simply spend a few moments with. I'm sure I would come away from such a meeting well enriched. 6.) Grand Master Tae Yun Kim... First female Grand Master of Taekwondo? You bet I would love to meet her! Her life story, is a perfect example of indominatable spirit in action. 7.) The Gracies or the Machados... What more need I say? 8.) Muhammad Ali---Who wouldn't give their right arm, to learn how to box from a true master of the ring, who is also a very kind gentleman to boot? 9.) Jet Li-- He's a pretty remarkable martial artist, through and through. 10.) Jackie Chan--- I'd love to meet him... the abuse he puts himself through, just to put together an entertaining movie, is legendary... I have to bow and shake the hand of anyone, who will bust themselves up to entertain another person.

Okay... I'm all for blindfolded training... Doing forms blindfolded... bagwork... one steps... sparring... breaking... the works... But... it goes without saying... safety is a primary isue. I would recommend highly, that no 'unsupervised' blindfolded training take place... (But I'm sure most of you already KNOW enough to put THAT kind of safety first. ) When I was a firefighter... we also did 'blind' training... for several purposes. We'd 'search' a room on hands and knees while blindfolded (had a cover over our air-mask) to simulate 'heavy smoke conditons'... We'd also do the 'eyes closed' thing when tying basic knots we'd use in the field... since in a fire, you may have only one chance, to tie the knot right, and you may NOT be able to SEE what you're doing... so you have to know how to do it blindly. It helped a lot... and believe it or not... it's not just about heightening your senses... It's ALSO about GETTING CONFIDENCE in yourself... If you can do a form blindfolded, and end up right where you started, and do it all 'comfortably' with good technique... Then doing that form with your eyes open should be a snap... Confidence in yourself, is a wonderful attribute to bring to the table, in ANY performance of martial art.

LOL Definitely!!

I couldn't agree more. Training in martial arts... and training in SELF DEFENSE are TWO DIFFERENT SUBJECTS. Sure... they're kissing cousins to each other... BUT... you're not throwing side kicks tournament style for the head, in a street fight...(unless having your head bounced on the pavement like a basketball is what you call 'fun') Best advice I've ever gotten in self defense is this... KEEP IT SIMPLE! They attack... you bust their knee out, whale em in the head, and RUN. (don't 'play' with em... don't try to 'win a fight with em'... just TAKE EM DOWN and SKEDADDLE!) Other best advice I got... "If you get into a place where you have to 'fight' to defend yourself... YOU ALREADY MESSED UP... learn how to AVOID those situations first... get to be a MASTER at avoidance... THEN... if all fails and you're in trouble... WIN... and win NOW." TKD is just as effective as anything... IF you ADJUST it to the circumstance. My favorite technique in a 'street fight' is to plant the toe of my cowboy boot as hard as I can right into my opponent's shin. It's a surefire bet... they're gonna feel it in spades... AND it gives me a leg up, when it comes time for me to do the SMART thing and to RUN. The ones who get whupped in a street fight, are almost always the ones who try to emulate their favorite action hero in an emergency... they fight their opponent with attempted flash... and they get STOMPED in no time flat. And it happens to black belts JUST as, if not FASTER than a 'no-belt'. <>> I'm living proof of that folks... --LOL-- I took a good whuppin because I disobeyed the rules of Avoidance SIMPLICITY END IT 'NOW' Needless to say... I don't intend to make those errors again. I'm too too too old, to spend two weeks healing from getting stomped like a grape. Longest street fight you should ever see... is LESS than 20 seconds... WAY LESS than 20 seconds at that... it should be a big ole... "BAM!!!! (insert martial artist sprinting like a running back to get out of Dodge HERE)" If it doesn't happen like THAT... The cops and paramedics will have some cleaning up to do... and it may involve a chalk outline, if the martial artist in defense, fails to prevail. Avoid... if caught, keep it simple... Hit and RUN... that's BASIC self defense in a nutshell. (and I recommend more training to BACK that basic up... ) Take care, Paul

That's a nice question. I'll tell you my story. I 'did' take a break from formal TKD training. Is 16 years a BREAK? Just got back in formal training... and regardless of the fact that I'm not as in shape as I would like to be, and certainly not as flexible, or even as 'capable' as I was ONCE... I'm glad I'm back in it. The 'worst' thing you can do, is say, "You've got to take the class." Forcing the kid to take the class, is not a way to 'encourage them to have FUN'... My advice... tell them, "You don't 'have' to participate... just pack your stuff in case you WANT to practice, and lets go in to the school. You can watch me and help me by telling me what I'm doing wrong after class is over." I went 'hot and heavy' for 4 years as a teen... and honestly, yes... other things DID come up that I wanted to do, besides TKD... that's natural... VERY natural... Let's face it... some things, you just don't get another chance to do in life, if you let the opportunities slip away. An example... going out with friends and classmates from school, and say, hitting the mall, OR, going to a ballfield and playing pickup baseball (or variant thereof). So while you can 'encourage them' to continue to train here and there... it's OKAY to let em 'be a kid' and to allow them to experience other wholesome things. (What's wholesome? Good question... because YOU are the authority that defines that word, in the context in which I use it) Personally... I can tell ya... I would've probably taken a sour attitude toward TKD, if I had been 'forced' to carry on training beyond what I really 'wanted' to, at the time. Now though, I do kind of wish I'd have at 'least' stayed in better practice and better shape with what I DID know already... rather than 'go cold' for a few years, and THEN... 'try to get myself back up to speed'... It wouldn't hurt to have a heart to heart talk WITH them about TKD... kind of try to guage WHAT their true intentions/wishes are... If they want to pass on classes for a bit... and would rather just 'occasionally run through their forms' informally to 'keep in good TKD shape'... that'd be great right there. TKD 'should' be a WELCOME companion for life... not a 'chore' we force on ourselves or on kids. Good luck.

Hmm... Simple and sweet... Wing Chun Kung Fu might be 'right up your alley'... Much depends solely on your interest... and.. one more important thing... "How you and the instruction 'match up' at the school you'd choose.' It's impossible, in my mind, to decide on a martial arts school, WITHOUT having MET the instructor(s) personally, and observed classes within the 'candidate school'... You not only need to shop for a reputable school... you also need to choose WISELY the instructor that you're putting your trust in. Instructors and Students are PEOPLE... and... as such... we often find that instructors and students DO need to be 'compatible' with each other... or they're both gonna suffer. It can be as simple as a personality matter... that causes a student and 'capable instructor' to NOT 'hit it off'. So... if I were you... I'd wait until I got there... and then I'd go VISIT each school... Heck... visit twice or three times... TAKE NOTES... Then... you'll be in far better shape, not only to pick a style you'd like... BUT ALSO, in far better shape, for picking an instructor you are VERY comfortable putting your full faith into. All my best, Paul

Best INITIAL EQUIPMENT you can get... GOOD reference books on stretching PROPERLY. Sang H. Kim has a great book on stretching for TKD And a fella by the last name of Anderson, has a great one out on stretching for all sports and activities. Some 'machines' are okay as a helper... BUT... If you don't stretch PROPERLY and SAFELY... both WITH and WITHOUT the machine... Then having a machine will only mean you get hurt faster. Century has good machines... and is in my estimation, one of the most reputable vendors available to martial artists, bar none. NOW... I'll throw this in, just for the heck of it... http://www.diversifiedsports.com/main.html I knew the man personally, who invented that Isomaxx thing... he instructed at my school for a while, many years back when he was a 3rd degree. Not sure if that Isomaxx works or not... I've never tried it... I don't use any 'props' or 'machines' to assist me in my stretching, beyond perhaps a simple folding chair for support here and there. But... I wish you luck... some machines are 'okay' (including the century products), but really, they're not NECESSARY to create a good stretching program for yourself, where you use nothing but your floor, and maybe a bar on the wall to hold on to, for dynamic stretching. Stretch 'gently' and safely. Paul

Congratulations on the midterm! I have to admit... rebreakable boards, back in the day, when I was a teen, were about a joke... they were either TOO hard to break, compared to a 'standard' pine board... or, they fell apart at the least provocation. For my money... I'd just as soon use good ole fashioned pine boards. I haven't yet had the chance to 'play' with the new 'rebreakables' that the ATA uses, though I did see them on the ATA site. I'll be very interested to see how they perform. Perhaps if all goes 'well' and I find myself able to follow up on my intent to resume my formal training... I'll get a chance to try out the new rebreakables live and on 'ATA' time. Good luck on your next testings!

Tae Kwon Do forms, and most other martial arts forms SHOULD be 'relatively' easy to learn. Martial art, involves moving your body, in ways it was DESIGNED BY NATURE to move. I'm firmly convinced, any drunken fool can DO Chon-ji, for example... and could probably do Po-eun if they wanted to. DOING EM RIGHT... now that's another matter. To do a form RIGHT in TKD... a few things need to happen...(and I speak with experience in the Songahm and Chang-hon form systems... I don't know ANY of the WTF forms) 1.) You need to begin and end, on exactly the same spot. 2.) Chambering properly is important 3.) Stances MUST be solid, and uniform, and you MUST transition from stance to stance EASILY and with BALANCE AND CONTROL 4.) Don't just 'slop' the kicks up... do them RIGHT.. (lift, chamber, extend-HOLD, rechamber, step into next stance) 5.) LOOK before you chamber, and chamber BEFORE you turn or move. 6.) BREATHE PROPERLY 7.) Perform the form in ITS OWN proper rhythm.. 8.) Know the meaning/philosophy surrounding that form, by HEART. 9.) When you think you have your form down perfect... admit that you're WRONG, and do it another 100 times and find out where it's STILL not PERFECT. It might seem boring... but believe me... I've found no better way to improve one's own technique... than to do the forms properly, paying rapt attention to details. Your's in TKD, Paul

Hmmm... that's a tough one... Most organizations I've seen, have a specific system they'd prefer you to use. (And that's not for bad reason... ) Also... expense can definitely be an issue... most of the organizations I've looked at, don't go cheaply. Since you're in Georgia... that definitely brings a group to mind for you to investigate... United States Taekwondo Federation http://www.ustfonline.com/ That's run by Master Scott McNeeley... Also... you might want to give aimaa.com a shot too... Action International Martial Arts Association... That's run by the one and only, Grandmaster Hee Il Cho. The USTF, I believe, uses the Chang-hon forms... while AIMAA allows EITHER WTF forms or ITF forms to be used... I'm not up to speed on the expenses of starting schools within any of those organizations... but I figure those two are as good as any, to consider. There's a heap of organizations out there, besides these ones I've mentioned, and besides 'the big three'... One good google search on TKD organizations, seems to pop up a long list of potentials. I wish you luck.

Something interesting I want to contribute too here... Kicking is a beautiful way to injure your hips, if you do it wrongly. Double that for rapid fire kicking where you're changing the kicks around. There are NO shortcuts to good kicking skills... I'm talking lots of work on the bar... and I mean 'slow' kicking, to make sure you get your natural body mechanics down PAT. If you try, say a front, round, hook, side combination... just as has already been said... you're also having to adjust your HIPS to execute each individual kick. A combination, is, after all, single techniques merely thrown one after another. How serious a subject, is body mechanics in kicking? Figure it this way... when I was younger... I did okay.. could even throw acceptable kicks. (save for the twist kick, which is still NOT part of my arsenal) I started having serious problems with my right leg side kick... I'd throw it, and something in my hip, right at the crease of my leg, would SNAP, just like someone doubling over a leather belt, and snapping it. The cause of the problem, was me, not paying close enough attention to my body mechanics, and the fine details of throwing a GOOD kick. Oh sure... I wanted a high kick... a fast kick... an effective kick... I forgot to add 'non-injurious' to the mix. This 'pain' I had in doing that kick, after a few instructors and I worked on it and couldn't pin the cause down (because the cause was SO subtle, you had to 'feel it' to find it, because there were no major visual cues that 'jumped out') I wound up hanging up the do-bok, figuring something was messed up medically. Well... here it is... years later... and I did some chair work... just held the back of a chair and throw nothing but SLOW side kicks... I had the answer to that problem in no time flat... my hips weren't properly aligned for a safe and pain free kick... I was 'dropping my butt' while trying to compensate for my left leg being a weaker leg to stand on, than my right leg was. Pay attention to your fundamentals... and start slow with the multiple kicks... and while experimenting... do NOT go 'full power' Just go easy and 'get the flow' of the combination you want to perfect... Once you know how it's supposed to feel 'doing it right'... you'll be better able to pour in the power and speed without hurting yourself.

Anything... I mean ANYTHING but "YEOWWWWCH!!!". Depends on the circumstance... In forms... I tend to make something of a gutteral 'ai-yeh' sound... Tournament free sparring, when trying to call judge's attention to a point technique I'm throwing... I go LOUD with a hearty "AI-YAHH!!!" If I were in class, leading the class through drills... I'd call off the command explaination... like... "Front stance!!" Then TRIGGER everyone's execution with a loud but gutteral "AIEE!" Board breaking... it varies... but I do like to make sure to time the ki-hap with the impact... if nothing else, to give my voice something better to do than yell OUCH if I miss the break. LOL

I couldn't begin to guess, just from the info you provide, what the basis for the order of basics is, that your instructor uses. I know my instructor, when I was a kid, would start us on techniques based upon whatever form it was we were learning later down the pike... So if we were going to be studying Chon-Ji... he'd get us into front stances first, and show us how to move from left leg forward, to right leg forward, and so on... then he'd show us the down block (low block, for those of you in the ATA), and then the front punch... (And all this going up and down the floor as a class in drill format) Then, we'd go over the first 8 movements of Chon-Ji... (Which, were just down blocks and front punches.) What's tough for a beginning student... least it was for ME... was catching on to the 'pattern of training'... I was more worried about what I was being told to do 'right now' as opposed to what was coming next. Now during the teaching of the form, as I recall... my instructor would quiz us, from movement to movement, "Okay... what's next?" (And I'm sure that was partly to make sure we kids were still 'tuned in'.) I won't presume to speak for your instructor, but I will say I wouldn't be totally shocked, if it were found that your instructor also, wasn't just checking to be sure everyone's 'tuned in' to the training. As time goes on, and with your own effort... I think you'll start to get 'the gist' of things. Just remember... for every moment of "God, don't let him call on ME!" in your training... You've got a LONG LINE of us... who've thought the VERY SAME THING to ourselves, in much the same situations as you're facing in training. They didn't call me 'Mr. Pushups' for nothing ya know. Just kidding. Hang in there... Each instructor has their own little 'quirks' about how they do things... and just as I became accustomed to my instructor... you too, will become more accustomed to your instructor's ways as time goes along.

Oh yeah... the pressing blocks. Now when I was taught the form... it was what we'll call a 'tension' movement. Basically speaking, you'd form the palm heels, one high, one low... tighten your muscles in your arms, and bring them down (and up), passing each other, until the arm's positions had swapped...(right up and left down... to left up and right down)... and so on and so forth. The keys to the move, were breathing control...(You'd be amazed at how many folks think holding the breath is a great thing during that movement), and to concentrate simultaneously, on muscle tautness, AND timing... the move should be completed in roughly 4 to 5 seconds (IF you do it the way I was taught to... Now if you're taught differently... do as your instructor says)

Won Hyo and Yul-Gok... I learned those as a blue belt, back when the ATA still used the Chang-hon system of forms. Both forms are beautiful when performed by someone who has learned them very well. I enjoyed the red belt forms too... Chun-gun and Toi-Gye... and in practiced hands... they can be wonderful to watch too... But I'll probably always have my affection for Won-Hyo and Yul-Gok... which are the first two forms that have the side kick incorporated within their patterns in the Chang-hon system.

Ahh... 118. Just reviewed a nice ATA site there, where Senior Master Babin had several of his articles posted. If the instructors and members of the ATA down your way, follow Senior Master Babin's example... then I'd say the spirit of Taekwondo is in excellent shape down your way! And from what I can tell 'Kamsamnida' is the proper westernized spelling for the Korean term for 'thank you'. "Tun mon-AY-oh" (Not at ALL sure how to spell it in westernized Korean.) (You're welcome. The weakest area of my TKD, if not my right leg side kick (though it's pretty lousy IMHO), HAS to be my command of the Korean language. LOL As for getting me to understand Hangeul as it is written? What's that EGM Lee said? Today impossible, tomorrow possible. Your's in TKD,

Well... not sure I'd want to be the one telling my instructor how to teach. But that said... you could ask your instructor to speak with you privately... and you could share with him, your desire to 'further your study' into the values, philosophy and history, of Taekwondo. He might be able to help you in that area. Another thing to remember... and this is HUGE... You're ultimately the one responsible for your learning... if for some reason, your instructor is unable to 'fit' as much of this values and philosophy training into the schedule as you might like... There's NOTHING that says you can't do a little research on your own time. I'm not sure what 'style' of TKD you're studying... I know a bit about the ITF style (Since the ATA used to use the same forms and other learning material when I was in the ATA), and I have some limited knowledge of the Songahn style... If I knew what 'style' you were studying... I could probably try to point you more toward information that coincides with the 'style' you're studying. For now though... I recommend THIS site, VERY highly... http://www.tkdtutor.com Lots of GREAT information there... on the history and philosophy of TKD, as well as some bits of practical advice from a long-time practitioner of Taekwondo. Your's in Taekwondo, Paul

In a nutshell... It should take as long as it takes. Every student is different. I took 2 years to get my black belt. (And that was years ago when I was a teen...) TODAY... if I actually got active again... I don't know HOW long it would take for me, to get to a point where I SHOULD wear that black belt again. (I've been out of formal training for over 16 years now.) I've seen students who could easily have legitimately rated a black belt within a year and a half...(We're talking exceptional students here, who 'really' lived and breathed TKD and worked out so much that the instructor would be letting them in right as the school opened.) I personally don't think 'how long it takes' is nearly as important, as 'just getting there, HOWEVER LONG it takes'. Your's in Taekwondo, Paul

The main purpose for tournaments, is two-fold... 1.) To allow you a chance to meet with other students and instructors from other schools, and to make new friends and 'learn from one another together'. 2.) To have FUN. Everything else... the trophys, medals, etc... That's window dressing. Go to the tournament, be prepared and ready to make some new friends, and be ready to compete for the heck of it, don't worry one way or the other about who gets the trophy... and, for God's sake... HAVE FUN!!! Your's in Taekwondo, Paul

Okay...--s-- My favorite subject... First... The ATA 'used' to use the Chang-hon style of forms. General Choi, taught EGM Haeng Ung Lee, those forms, in about 3-4 days and nights, and when the ATA was founded... EGM Lee taught those forms to his students. In the middle 1980's, Songahm forms were developed, not to 'change' Taekwondo... (The techniques used are still the SAME TKD that's taught in TKD schools around the world), but to change "HOW" it is taught. To make the teaching 'flow' for the student and the instructors in a uniform way.) Look at General Choi's forms as one 'book' about the subject of Taekwondo. Now look at EGM Lee's forms, as another 'book' about the subject of Taekwondo. The Taekwondo is basically the same... a side kick is a side kick, a reverse punch is a reverse punch... The two 'styles' go about the 'how to teach TKD' differently. That's it... in a nutshell. The same can be said for the WTF forms as well... End of the day gang... Taekwondo, is Taekwondo... If your round kick is great in the WTF... then those in the ITF, and those in the ATA, will say, "Hey... you've got a great round kick!". The 'difference' is in 'how the knowledge is imparted to the student'... NOT in 'different knowledge'. Which one's better? It's a matter of personal taste... I still enjoy practicing the Chang-hon forms...because those were the forms I used when I ascended to my first degree black belt... But... I've also knowledge of Songahm... and I enjoy practicing those forms as well. Before it's all said and done, I may even learn some of the WTF forms for my own enjoyment as well. Either which way... if you practice TKD... then it doesn't MATTER which association you're in, or which 'style' appeals to you most. Just keep practicing TKD, eh? Your's in Taekwondo, Paul

One steps are integral to proper training. If one steps are not teaching you timing... then I ask... Why in blazes are you NOT using them to improve that aspect? If they're not teaching you how to measure distance in confrontation... then I ask... Why are you NOT paying attention to that aspect of your training?? The one steps, serve two basic purposes... One... to get you used to moving your body in concert to another person's attack in 'almost live simulation'... Two... to get you USED to using COMBINATIONS in your defense, AND your counter-attack. Allow me to be frank... TKD isn't worth a hoot, if you use single techniques and 'think' they're gonna work... The magic of TKD is in 'combinations'... you HAVE to be able to combine techniques, in order to complete a proper counter attack that's capable of ENDING the conflict right there and then. One punch, doesn't do it... one KICK doesn't do it... It takes a combination, to ASSURE that your counter-attack is going to be devastatingly successful. Your timing aspect of one steps... i.e. your objective, is as follows... When your opponent executes his attack... You do NOT 'anticipate' the attack... you WAIT for it... and BLOCK it, at the LAST possible moment, with a strong, technically proficient block, and then IMMEDIATELY, without stopping or hesitating, 'follow the flow' and execute your counter attack. THAT is the mission... learning HOW to do that in baby steps... So when you graduate to free sparring, or to 'combat tactics'... you can THEN apply the principles you developed in one steps, to ENHANCE your effectiveness as a defender. Timing and distance are everything in fighting... Look at the person that tries to tackle you to the ground in a street-fight... If you time it right... you can force him to walk, face first, into a lovely reverse punch to his nose...(Which, most often will knock him plum silly, long enough for you to either get away, or to further prosecute your counter to drop him like a bad habit) If you screw up your timing... you wind up on the ground, getting your head kicked in after he bounces it off the pavement 20 or 30 times. Good timing... you can dodge him and help him fall on his face, giving you time to either escape or prepare to mount a crippling offensive. Bad timing... Either the paramedics haul you to the hospital after you take a beating and a half... OR... some cop or coroner zips a body bag around you and notifies your next of kin. One steps 'seem' like an exercise in futility... they're NOT... Distance training... You throw your kick at an attacker who rushes in, but they're too close and your foot jams, and they grab your leg and dump you to the ground like yesterday's rubbish. Or... you react properly, side step, and either trip them, or whack em in the noggin with sound technique... (preferably both, depending on the circumstances), and you find yourself in a fine position to either escape, or press your advantage to knock em flat so you can BETTER get away safely. Two important skills... and that's where one steps come into play... They're the start of your training... NOT the end... And if you can't see clear to give one-steps your best effort... You're gonna wind up short-changing yourself in the end, as far as your training and skill goes... You might be a great TKD artist... but you won't be half as good as you could be... And that would be a crime... to invest all that effort into getting your black belt and so on... and NOT taking FULL advantage of all the benefits that the training has to offer. It'd be like paying 100,000 bucks for a cool new car... and then ACCEPTING some car from the junkyard instead of the new car you paid for. Starting out... do the one-steps... do them dilligently as they're taught... As you grow in skill and rank... PLAY WITH THEM... change them... EXPERIMENT with them. See what 'might work' and what 'WON'T'... one steps can tell you a lot about that! As you grow even MORE skilled... EXPAND ON THEM... Use the lessons they teach you, in other areas of your training, including free sparring and self defense. Remember... one-steps are predicated on one premise... In TKD self defense... just a FEW simple techniques, PERFORMED PROPERLY IN COMBINATION, can END A FIGHT. That's why one steps like the ole 'block, punch punch punch', are KEPT exactly THAT simple. Don't turn your back on what is, in effect, another 'tool in your training arsenal' to make you a better TKD practitioner, and yes, a better trained self-defense technician. Your's in Taekwondo, Paul

http://www.tkdtutor.com Give that one a try... that man has OODLES of information right there. Basically, if you follow the history of General Choi Hong Hi...(Incidentally... Chang-hon, is his pen name, as he was also a calligrapher, and Chang-hon, means 'Blue cottage') You'll have the history of the forms as he developed them. One tidbit that's missed sometimes... Up until the 1980's... he only had 20 forms in his system... Sometime after the 80's... he developed 4 more... to form what is currently a 24 form system... one form for each of the hours of a day. Good luck in your research! Paul

And for the record here... while I'm at it.-grin- I'm not wild about anyone, that bashes ANY association or style of martial art. I understand some have less than glowing opinions of the ATA... I understand some have less than glowing opinions of the ITF... I understand some have less than glowing opionions of the WTF... I understand that some folks even think Chuck Norris is nuts for starting the UFAF... Etc and so on... A true martial artist, is so bent on improving themselves, they don't have the TIME to speak unkindly of others. Why don't I think much of those that bash? Because it's obvious to me... they're not giving their best to their art, and TO THEMSELVES... because they're wasting time 'bashing' someone else. Take the bashing time... and convert it to time to make your form better... to teach your student better... to perfect that one technique that's been vexxing you... You'll like the results a lot better... because you'll get a better return on your investment of time. Bashing someone, or their art, is the exact opposite of 'building a more peaceful world'... which is one of the points brought out in the 'student oath' used in the old system... Bashing creates discord... hatred... That is not the Taekwondo way... Do two different tree branches hate each other because they look different? No... they each grow in their OWN way, so as to more beautify the tree, in harmony with each other. The focus of a TKD student should be on self-improvement... that is, the quintessential bottom line. Your's in Taekwondo, Paul