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if you regularly have students that come to the required classes but do not promote, then thats an instruction problem. I understand that some kids just dont care..or are lazy....believe me I know...but its up to you as an instructor to get through to that student. You have to do more homework on how to teach that student.If all else fails take it upon yourself to make the extra time for the lacking students. Have a "test prep" class thats invitation only the last month of testing. In my opinion as long as the students come, its up to us as instructors to see to it that they are ready to test. Now if you make them ready and they mess up at testing, then thats their own failure. A lot of times when the parents see the failure in front of their face at testing... its not an issue. As long as they were prepared by their instructor. If they failed it was due to circumstances beyond your control but directly contolled by that student...ie nerves,pressure,attitude,negative thinking, or just plain didnt break their boards. IMO, make sure your students are ready by making the time to give them what they need.

I want to first put out some of my opinions on MMA/UFC. First...if your a TMA, dont make any excuses as to why you "cant" or "wont be able to" fight in a MMA Fight. I mean seriously...if the only thing your art has is eye gouges and biteing...Im sure it does not. Theres no TMA thats too "deadly" the fact is that very few people are the kind that can actually go to the cage and fight .If your not one just admit it and theres no shame in that. That just means your normal, most of these guys have serious mental issues or are just a little crazy. Second...every fighter that fights in the UFC is a TMA. Its either boxing, BJJ, Muai Thai that they use, and all of these techniques come from martial arts. Martial arts does not stop being martial arts just because a bunch of guys want to fight each other. yeah its called "sport MA" but actually its the trust test of the MA without going to jail. While all of the styles I listed above are considered "sport", the techniques are pretty universal as far as striking. Its all fighting, its all Martial arts. Lets face it,UFC is not a bar fight between 2 drunks...all of them have trained in some form of sport or traditional MA or activity that uses MA. Even american wrestling has Judo tech. With that said; how many of you on this board ACTUALLY think you may be in a MMA ring one day for a promoted fight? Do you know for sure you have the cohonas or are you just going to find out through training? What is your training schedule like and what MA besides BJJ,boxing, Muai thai, do you use in your training? do you have mental issues or are you prone to violence? I know I want to do it because I want to be the best, which will never actually be, theres always someone better. Its the journey that keeps me going, because its never fully attained. But im sure wanting to be the best/toughest, fighter/man stems from something not quite normal.

Yeah, your probably right. I guess it is too dificult....its just that I come from point sparring, and we target the head mostly (instead of the body) so thats why I was thinking it would not be that hard, because I never see them going to the head a lot. It seems that these athletes are a lot better and more conditioned than we are as point fighters(even at the top level point fighter). It seems this is a good "next step' for me, because I have been successful in point fighting and am kinda done with it now. m a little nervous now...not knowing exactly HOW uch beter they are at fighting than I am. I guess Ill just have to find out. Though I will do all the reasearch I need to to know what kind of condition and skill level I have to be at to fight at a national qualifier. This seems like the logical "next step". I just was not really ready for them to be so much better. Like I said , for me in point sparring, kicking someone in the head with a clean blow is easy. Hopefully my blocking is up topar to their skill Thanks-

You make a good point, and I understand it. However, you must admit that it doesnt even look like they are going for the knockout. It doesnt even look like a full contact match. It does not look like boxing with feet only. Boxing does not look like a "tag" point sparring match. It looks like olympic TKDers arent even thinking about a knockout....all their thinking about is the point....because they dont FIGHT like they want a knockout. They fight like they are too scared to commit because they might get a point scored on them... and thats a shame.

Yeah, If I wanted to learn shotokan karate thats what I would have signed up for. I see no reason for a TKD form to backpack shotokan karate....it has evolved to the point to where it can definetly be a independent art. TKD is a totally different art than Karate now. Thus, the ATA forms are best, IMO. Ive never had any problem teaching people the jump front kick 6 months in, but in ATA, they are kicking from the begining. They can definetly effectivly apply it.

Because thats what olympic sparring is SUPPOSED to be. Also, because I want olympic gold. I want to change the way olympic sparring is sparred,so it is more exciting and more respected. The rules not only allow for this to happen, but I think thats how it was supposed to be in the first place. Who is going to think "hmmm...9 minute,3 round, full contact fight? Must be a point match" That sounds crazy to me.

Yeah, I understand the base and where it came from. The ATA did a good thing in coming up with the more TKDish forms to represent the true TKD style of 50/50 hands/feet.

I appreciate your comments ninjanurse and didnt mean to take offence. I just have read through the posts in sport and korean MA and this has not been directly addressed. Can someone please tell me WHY a FULL CONTACT 3 ROUND 9 MINUTE fight is being sparred like a "POINT MATCH"?

Theres a natural progression of kicks. IMO There are too many "Hand Technique Dominated" forms in ITF/WTF for it to be TKD. It looks like shotokan Karate to me. There is no "flying" kicks in any ATA form. The first jump kick is taught at 3 belts in (6 months of training usualy) and is a jump front kick (a #3 in ATA-the 'karate kid" kick haha. You dont jump distance however, you just jump straight up. Even the Jump Front Kick is a pretty basic TKD kick, considering all the advaned kicks you adventualy have to perform in TKD, and you cant introduce them all at once. But when you come from a "karate like" tkd form...the more progressive and challenging Songahm forms would seem to be "flashy and too early". Even though they are basic TKD kicks. Hey Sam, I think that would be a great Idea. I can be responsible for the ATA type. Id like to record and post them on video for a site (as log as the ATA doesnt throw a fit, they are so communist, really its like a cult...HAHA) But I would like to cotribute with those when/if you do it.

I used the word "showcase" to mean they are the only forms I have seen that "show" the kicks of TKD. Too many TKD forms are "karateish" I believe also. ATA forms are not fancy, nor do they resemble anything like a XMA form or have any flips. Its just traditional TKD with all the kicks in them. They also have a logical flow to them. I can illustrate the ATA forms easiest by using the white belt from. the sequence is like this; High block-reverse punch-front kick-low bock-lunge punch (stepping punch) turn -inner forearm block-side kick-knifehand strike- luge punch...the sequence then repeates on the other side...if you kicked with left before....you do exact kick with right on second sequence....thus 50/50 development from left to right. All their forms repeate halfway through, to perform the exact sequence with opposite hands/feet sides. You will notice even in the white belt form there are 4 kicks (2 front kicks,2 side kicks) as well as ample hand movements. Thats why I like ATA forms and say their the best...all the TKD kicks are in the forms, as well as logical flow, increasing difficulty, and strength and technique are "prodiminately" focused on. The result (for the best students,with the best instuctors) is picture perfect technique that is fast and strong, as well as well developed kicks to all heights and areas. I recognize the ATA has severe problems with actually developing good fighters (mostly because of mcdojos and their point fighting thats why Im WTF and crosstrain now) but taught by a good instructor the ATA practitioner is far superb to most all I have see as far as forms go. Thats why I say they have the best forms.

I was speaking of TKD....that would be Korean. "the best TKD forms"

Oh, yeah....I know what your talking about. They started teaching Songahm in the late 70's....that was before my time with them. So, has anybody seen the ATA songahm forms...what did you think of them?

Well, unless youve been to an ATA tourn. or school, then I dont think you have seen them-unfortunatly. ATA is so reclusive. But the names are- songahm 1-6 (white-green belt) In Wah one (purple) In Wah two (blue) Choon-Jung one (brown) Choon-Jung two (red) Shim-Jung (1st deg. BB) I think thats the correct spelling,on that one.

Ive never been to an ATA school that teaches anything but Songahm Forms,and Ive been to a lot of them. However, I was refrencing the Songahm forms in my post.

I am of the opinion that ATA (american taewkondo association) forms are the best. Yes, I have seen all other types. However, the ATA is so secular, that I dont think most of your have ever seen an ATA form unfortunatly. what I like about them; 1. they are all about 40% feet and 60% hands. By far the most kicking in taekwondo forms. 2. They are all 50/50 right and left sides of the body.what you do on the right, you repeat on the left later on. 3.they increase in diffucilty and # of moves as you go up. The 1BB form has around 100 moves. Because of all this the ATA forms are flowing,long,difficult,and showcase the great TKD kicking skills. However as an org. the ATA has tremedous problems,mailnly they are not part of the martial arts community as a whole, and have almost a communist and way about them. But their forms are great

You just need to build more self confidence in teaching as the frontman/woman. This will only come from teacing itself, or working on teaching w/ your instructor.

My thread was addressing a broader issue. We all know that 95% of techniques scored in WTF olympic competition is those 2 kicks...the US Olympic coach even said it in an interview. Its obvious, watch the olympics how many jump roundand bac kicks do you see? WHY do you think thats all you see? The other kicks are mearly to set up those scoring kicks. However, I say forget the "points" and lets fight as if it were a boxing match with feet only. Ware your opponent out, and go for the knockout, and stop worrying so much aout the points that are only counted for 2 techniques. Do you know what Im saing...that would involve CHANGING the way the Olympic sparring is done. If your afraid to get knocked out, you'll keep your hands up. I bet I could change my opponents sparring style (regular olympic) by just going for a knockout instead of those mid-section 'points". AND STILL STAY WITHIN THE RULES OF WTF OLYMPIC SPARING! I dont think people know the rules of the sport....your are allowd to kick bare foot to the face and knock your opponent out. THEY JUST DONT DO IT. I think this would change the way the olmypic sparring is done and make it a much more exciting sport, and its all within the current rules. All you have to do is change the WAY they do it, by sparring with them like a fighter going in for a knockout. ninja nurse; I know the rules for WTF olympic cmpetition. I have them sitting here in front of me actually and it states; facial area (foot only); this area is the face excluding the back of the head,and attack by foot techniques only is allowed. kicking to the face is allowed. also "the game" is not control. The rules state "FULL CONTACT" but to SCORE it has to be at LEAST a 'trembeling shock to the oppoent" I was addressing the larger issue of"why" olympic sparring is so laughable, when the rules allow it to be a respectable full contact fighting sport.

OLYMPIC TKD RULES ALLOW IT TO BE A RESPECTABLE, FULL CONTACT FIGHTING SPORT...so why isnt it? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A OLYMPIC TKD MATCH AND A BOXING MATCH EXCEPT WE USE OUR FEET ONLY AND THEY USE HANDS ONLY. SO WHY IS IT BEING SPARRED LIKE A "POINT" FIGHT?

If your wave master is filled completly up with water and your knocking it down...then your pushing after the strike to knock it down. they dont fall over from a strike when filled up completly...not even close anybody could push it over however with their palm. Kids at my school think they knock it down too, but actually they are pushing it. A big difference. say wavemaster is just as good , better really, than a swinging one. Thus the mass sale of wavemasters today.

Its not your fault. You probably nee to ask your instructor for tips on teaching large groups like that. The only students I let assist like that are the ones in my instuctor development classes. Even then I dont let them take the floor for a set of exercises until about brown belt. It takes time to learn how to lead. Social Anxiety wouldnt be a problem here for you I dont think, because you are comfortable with the people of your school by now. I think you just felt somehing a lot of us would feel at your age trying to lead older teens and adults....paranoid. I would suggest asking yor instructor to work one on one with you, if he wants you to lead...espically leading adults.

Thats good you know. I think the part where you sad you "get to work with other adults" is funny. Sometimes I miss that, its all kids all day for me.Didnt really realize I missed it until you mentioned it. Thanks for your answers to my questions, I was just trying to see if small school owners made the choice to stay small,or just didnt know how to get big without spending a lot. And if it was A CHOICE to stay small, why would you make that choice? Hopefully I didnt offend you Jane in trying to understand that question.

Im really impressed. I didnt think I would get that kind of respose from this forum, or any other for that matter, unless it was a NAPMA or MApro forum...which by the way are empty. I guess I got the impression from people,forums,etc. of small school operations, that a large school is bad and they sold out and are mcdojos. I came from a GOOD large school and have taughtin a few....good to know Im not the only one who has seen this. Im glad to have met people who respect both sides of the coin, because I do also. I dont understand it, but I respect it. Why wouldnt you want to make your school = your life, If you love to teach and practic MA? Why would you choose to work for someone else and keep that job, when you could be doing what you love and probably adventually be getting paid more? How could you be content with only part of your life being MA, when you know it could be the majority?

Hey, There seems to be this belief among small school owners that a large school, where the instrctor dives a mercedes benz, has to be a mcdojo. I understand the thought, but you can still teach good martial arts weather there is 5 or 30 kids in a class and just because a school has 100 students or more does not mean its a mcdojo. Personally I see it just as life depicts it. In any job the most productive is recognized for their efforts and moves up in status by pay or title. Compare the two lifstyles.I know that MA owners of large schools continually train in seminars, aggressivley advertise, and purse excellence in thier school. Its a type A personality. So, of course it will most likely flow onto the floor. Most small school owners I know, just want to do what they want. heir success is not their life blood. They tend to be close minded and unwilling to see new ideas. Its just all about how long you can take this or that, and how "tough" their students are, and not necessairly how "good" they are. Ive seen a lot of unqualified instructors that are out of shape and everything else in small schools too. To be honest I have yet to see students come from a small school that are miles above those at a GOOD large one, like they like to claim. My point is this, to each his own right? But its not, beause as soon as you say your from a large school (TKD espically), the small school people want to tell you how much better their school is than yours. Has anybody else experieced this? So its not to each his own coming from small school students and owners. Just because its a large school does not mean its a mcdojo. There are bad apples in every basket. You can get big, and be wealthy in the MA, and not be in it for the money, and not run a mcdojo. Ive seen it done, and I plan on doing the same. Hasent anybody else seen it done?

You should try it. A printing place could make the disk for you for around $100-200 , but thats a one time thing. After that they are like $20 for 10 packs, much cheaper than a ful size flyer, I think there is 50 flyers to a post - it -note pack. You design the post it note flyer, then they design the disk. you could use regular fyers too,until you can afford the disk (thats what im doing because whe I was doing this I worked for a wealthy ma company, and I just opened my own school).Im getting the post-it-notes soon though. Make sure you offer a free week or month on the post-it-note flyer. this is how I was taught to do it: for one hour every day -drive to a strip mall and start sticking the post-it-note flyers on drivers side windows. Also have cards (you could use the post it note flyer, but cards are better) that have a offer on them. when customers walk to and from their car while your sticking post-its, tell them who you are and offer them 2 weeks free and give them the card. It is intimidating at first to talk when sticking post-its, you feel like your've been "caught",but peole really do appreciate someone who is "giving something away" not just selling something to them. so you have post-its and cards. Post-its for cars,and cards for people. One school did this for one hour everyday, and averaged 4 intros and 2 new members a day! THIS WIll definetly increase your erolment. Good Luck, and dont be shy..go and get those new members! (HELps if you think that way. remember your not soliciting, you GIVING away 2 free weeks)

yeah, If I callenged my instructor in a class setting like that, Id be punished the same way.