Traditional-Fist

hello, I was watching TV last night and there was a thing about fighting.

then it said if you hit at the right spot hard enough (i think it was a litte under the heart) that your oponents heart would slow down or even stop.

Has anyone heared about this?

The area under the heart is a legitimate target in Wing Chun, as well as other kung fu styles. Some karate styles such as Okinawan Goju-Ryu use this area as a target in their mid section strainght punching attacks as opposed to Shotokan that uses the middle of the solar plexus as target in its basic mid section thrust punch.

Iin kung fu you can hit this area with various types of fist formations including the dragon fist and the vertical fist, as well as palm strikes such as the ones used by Tai Chi and Dragon stylists. The damage to the heart is more to do with the penetration of the energy of the punch rather than mere impact. Of course, if the impact is strong enough there will of course be damage.

This means it is not merely knowing where to hit as one has to be able to hit the right place accurately and in the correct manner, i.e. years of hard and authentic training with a real kung fu or karate master.

OK then, let me rephrase and add some back story. One of my earliest classes involved me getting peppered with punches by a senior member of the class to see how I naturally deal with things.

How most people naturally deal with this type of thing is to either cover themselves or try to protect themselves/fight back in an incoherent manner, that is unless they have previous experience in another martial art.

Before my sifu was officially taught, his teacher paid some kids to beat him up.

I bet that was to encourage him to take up martial arts in the first place.

Hard training is done after basics, that is true BUT my basics was simple sparring.

I have nothing against "simple sparring" as it is part and parcel of kung fu training. What I meant is that over emphasis on so called "realistic sparring" from day one is not part and parcel of authentic kung fu.

Everytime I was taught a move, I was then shown it in application as well as in singular drill and it's place in the form and how it differs in the form and why it is different. Does my more "dynamic" class mean it is not authentic?

What you have just described is not what I had meant by "dynamic". Sparring is also part and parcel of kung fu training as long as it is not enphasised from day one.

Is the inverse true? Are all non-dynamic and non-heavy sparring classes authentic?

There are no none sparring kung fu classes that are authentic. Real kung fu needs real sparring, but not from day one.

No offence but three months of ONLY stance training smells like either proper classical styles like traditional longfist styles or one of the breathe/hard schools of shaolin, the origins of which in terms of fighting are dubious anyway.

I disagree. Importance of stance training cannot be underestimated in most authentic kung fu style training. One of the reasons that real sparring practise is carried out later on in training is to avoid the compromise of proper stance, and movement in stance, in favour of "bouncing" like a kick boxer or TKD-ist, for example.

No school I know of has students ONLY doing stance training for the first three months. On the other hand, I did spend months learning how to short bridge punch but that's not really the same and it wasn't like I never did anything else as well as that at the same time, especially seeing as part of the short bridge punching training involves sand-bag work and blood-sand.

What you are describing here sounds like good honest kung fu training, in parts peculiar to Hakka Boxing, probably Chow Gar of the Ip Shui linage. If so, this style does not stress stance training in the same way as many of the more "orthodox" kung fu styles. Congratulations, as you have probably found an authentic kung fu school.

Traditional styles do take a long time to learn all of it that can be taught but does that mean it takes ten or more years to even just learn basics because that is what is being said by some.

That will depend on ones patience/school and the century in which one may have have decided to take up kung fu. However, 10 years does sound like a bit too much.

Would you consider Wing Chun to be a traditional style?

Yes! But not the way it is being practised by most people I have seen here in London.

Historically, the style was designed to create fighters in less than five years

Yes, but the students trainned with real masters and trained everyday. And even so, some say that weapons and the principles of the style were taught first to maximise the time/effectiveness ratio of the fighters.....

with even the basics being applicable from day one.

.....and maybe that is why the basics were applicable from day one.

I mean, put it this way, the moment you are taught to punch, you are by the nature of what is to punch, taught to intercept and to step and basics of timing; at least you should be.

Without a solid stance and foundation and correct breathing the above amount to only superficial skills.

In my first class of wing chun, that was what and how I was taught.

Were you studying authentic/traditional Wing Chun or was it a modern style?

In my first class of mantis, I was taught in the same way.

It is my understanding of southern mantis that a great amount of enphasis is placed on Chi-Kung training and basics (in such a way that would probably send an average MMA-ist into eternal boredom if not a coma), of which you have not mentioned anything. Do you indeed practise Southern Hakka Praying Mantis?

The simple fact of the matter is this... 98% of CMA stylist are inapt for various reasons such as... phoney teachers, bogus styles/arts, sorry students that don't train etc...etc...etc...

Out of the other 2% only .5% truly train for actual combat and work on all phases of their training including applications. With those odds there's no wonder why CMA has such a bad name. It's not going to change anytime soon either because you have so many teachers out three that have no clue, thus their students have no clue.

It's something i as a CMA stylist hate to admit, but it's the truth.

jeff:)

I am in agreement with you, although I am not too sure about the percentages, . I would also add that many potential students having attended an authentic kwoon and not having participated in full contact sparring and other "dynamic" activities in the first 2 sessions, never come back and instead choose the local kick boxing gym where they will go on to learn "real fighting". So our culture in the West has a lot to do with at least some of the shortcomings in the CMA arena.

I am glad to say there are real kung fu kwoons around, not many, as you mentioned,but they can be found by those who are really interested in learning real kung fu. The old saying: "when the student is ready the master will appear" seems to be relevant when it comes to kung fu training, at least for some people.

I also agree that there is a lot of misconception about the Chinese Arts.

Agreed.

However what concerns me is that too many people think that Traditional Chinese Arts do not contain hard training such as weights, resistance or heavy contact sparring or fighting.

Good point. Realistic Sparring is a fact of life in any real kung fu school. Even if more often than not the bases have to be grasped and mastered to a degree before it is attempted.

As for weight training it is important to add that its main purpose in kung fu is to create resistance power for the muscles and tendons, i.e. no "pumping" or relatively large muscle mass development.

Back then, rebels and soldiers learned Kung Fu to save their own lives. Every form, every move, every skill was learned to make sure he or she could have the upper hand in battle. If one argues that Wushu seems like a "dancing role", then I could see why. But Kung Fu was studied and used in life and death situations. The soldiers and the rebels don't have time to learn an ineffective art.

Well put TigerCrane. And there are kung fu schools/sifus nowadays that train their students with the warrior aspects of kung fu in mind, that means they prepare them for effective and no nonsense battle. Unfortunately (at least for the impatient students) battle readiness can take rather longer than some of the more modern martial arts, but hey, no art is perfect I suppose, not even kung fu,

http://www.seishinkan.com/seishin/seishink.htm

This is a link to the seishinkan site.

http://www.seishinkan.com/seishin/sskstaff/johnvioluchideshi01.html

This is a link to another part of the site that has some of his writings from his experiences as an Uchi Deishi. I believe you have to email him to get more info beyond what is on the site. There is a ton of stuff on the site. Enjoy.

Thankyou very much, very interesting links.

hai every one

i am really glad that the people in this forum who doesn't even know me have given me a good support and intiative ,that no one has given me until now.

ok let me get into the matter directly ,

as i told before me and one of my colleague (to help me) have visited the kyokushin dojo and i saw people from 6 to 60 years practising karate and seeing the training given to them i am just suprised .

woww!!! its really a great place

later i met the three senseis ,they told me that they are intrested in training me because of my intrest in learining as a forigner to japan and height (6feet 1 inch)

and they told me as a kyokushin member i can practise at any dojo japan.

immedeatley i got inscripted ,i am going to start from next week

i will inform you all ,after my first day in dojo

thanks once again to all in this forum

Be prepared for some hard and inspirational training. Let us know how it goes.

Your last point is very solid, MizuRyu. The value of cross-training and making the training as realistic as possible is irreplaceable.

Talking about kung fu, I would like to make a significant comment. All major styles of kung fu contain, what westerners might call cross-training aspects. However, they have these within principles and methods characteristic of given styles. That means Northern Mantis ground fighting will fall within principles of that style and not of North American or Greco Roman wrestling. So will their takedowns, takedown defenses, hand/arm, foot/knee/leg strikes. The same is true for Wing Chun and other major Shaolin Arts. In short, most major kung fu styles are complete fighting arts that cover all realistic scenarios. Does this mean that each art contains every fighting technique under the sun? Of course not. What it does means, is that they have applicable defenses and principles that cover all scenarios.

So what is the problem? The problem as always is the lack of decent kung fu schools with decent kung fu masters, not to mention dedicated and patient students who are willing to put time and understanding into such a profound art.

That is why so many McSifus go around introducing outside aspects/techniques into their arts that already do exist within their kung fu, if they only knew.

However, being McSifus, many of them introduce aspects that are in conflict with the original principles of their style of kung fu. Of course, the new additions are marketed as "Modern", "New and improved","More Effective", "Quicker to master" and so it continues. The image created is that Kung Fu is somehow lacking important aspects, such as would you believe ground fighting, 'boxing hooks' etc., where the only thing that kung fu is lacking is good authentic schools and teachers. Don't get me wrong, there are good schools, but in the minority. That means that they are not the image/opinion makers.

So to conclude, the chinese WERE crosstraining (within given principles and methodologies), thousands of years before the this type of training was discovered by today´s NHB fighers and modern kung fu "Geniuses"/"Gurus", fighters.......Mc,Mc,Mc.

If you're interested in more info on him, I can get you a website. You would be able to contact him from that point on.

I would like to know more, please. The web site would be very helpfull. Thank you.

What he is saying can also apply to Wing Chun as well as many other kung fu styles. The forms of Wing Chun have weapons applications as well. This does not mean that Wing Chun is not suitable for unarmed training/combat.

I believe that the sensei in question is just looking into a "new" angle in the enchant art of making $$$$$$ and that is my opinion.

Hi All

I am currently working towards my Purple belt (grading at the end of the month), however im starting to get bored/annoyed in class. Its not with any of the students but its with the fact that I know my grading kata (I'm far from perfect but I would say I know it to blue belt standard). I have learn't in my own time from a DVD the next kata up. However in class when it comes to kata I have to go with the rest of the blue belts and go through the kata to count (with the sensei infront showing us the moves). I don't know what to do I enjoy it, but I feel I am being held back, and I get bored and can just feel myself not trying. Last night was great until the kata section and then I just wanted to be at the gym.

Has anyone else felt like this and what did you do?

Many great posts. Just remember that one of the secrets of martial arts is REPETITION (of course with undertanding of the techniques you are repeating.) The more you repeat the more you will understand and feel the techniques and their various meanings. With constant repetition, you will soon understand that there is more to karate than you thought.

Also, remember the old saying "Five years, One Kata." (Or at least, something to that effect).

Try to get your hands on some karate books written by Okinawan masters.

Is I wrote...I back to kung fu....but I am also with kick boxin some days to get more contact , and do some hard contact with a couple of friends.

I ´ve some problems at kung fu training , because my shifu corrects me my guard position very often..... I ´ve been doing boxing and kick boxing for a considerable time....and the guard does nothing to see with kung fu.

Both are good....but I am used to close ( or semi close) my hands , and use a fist guard (maybe cuz the globes??). It is more confortable for me , but it is not correct at some parts of the training.....I also use that guard as natural in a danger situation.

Another difference on the guard position is that the guard shifu suggest me is 40 % on the left leg ( front , I am right handed) and 60 % on the right with my left hand semi extended and the right hand against my chet, and the average boxing guard I´used is a little agressive and lean toward the opponent ( of course you may move your torso to avoid the hits).

So....at kung fu training I try to adapt to that guard , but I do not feel confortable....All the other things work great.....

Ideas ?

This is a typical type of problem faced by cross-trainers. It is best to remember that different styles have different concepts and methodologies, and it is normal that some movements/techniques in one style to feel more comfortable than the equivalent in the other. Some styles will require a certain type of a guard and weight distribution and others will require a different type.

My suggestion is to concentrate on one art and of course kung fu would be be my preference, and give up the other so that you don´t end up mixing concepts and theories, which will slow down your general progress. However, if you just want to learn to fight as quickly as possible and just like full contact sparring, then give up the kung fu.

Remember, if you are practicing kung fu, you are training in a very profound an rich art, mixing that with a relatively simple art such as kick boxing, then you are asking for confusion and dare I say "cross-problems".

If you come to really understand one of the arts (wether kung fu or kickboxing), to the point where you are happy and comfortable with its basic requirements, then you can start training in a second art if you really want to. Hopefully, this way you can minimize any arising confusions.

And also, has anyone heard of the quote, "All the martial arts in the world derive from Shaolin"? (Or something along the line?)

I have not heard it in those terms. I have heard the remark that all Asian martial arts have been influenced by shaolin. Wether all of them have, I don´t know, but I do know that most of the major ones have.

Also, we must remember that all of the shaolin styles were not created in the temple. Some styles had existed before the founding of the shaolin temple. It was much, much later that they came to be integrated into the shaolin system, meaning that not all fighting systems had originated in the Shaoling Temple.

It is also worth researching into the main Wudang styles of kung fu, namely Tai chi, Pakua and Hsing I.

I am looking for a good wing chun (ving tsun) school in new jersey passaic area is desired

Google, "new jersey wing chun ving tsun", (without the quotes).

You should get some relevant results.

Being fed up with all the 'nay-sayers' is a good start.

Hello redii,

First and foremost pay special attention to the above advice from HG. There are many people in the world who will try to hold you back, not because of any short comings that are yours, but because of their own personal shortcomings and unresolved issues. So, don´t pay any attention to 'nay-sayers', unless they are experts who may be cautioning you about certain types of excercises and so on.

Training in a good traditional karate school in japan will take care of any character weaknesses that you may have. All you need to do is to take the first step and enter the dojo and train and train more, without even thinking about giving up. If you follow that advice you will eventually have a strong spirit (budo/warrior spirit), which is a fundamental part of traditional japanese martial arts study. I.E. You will have guts. It just takes a lot of work on your part, that is once you find a good traditional karate school.

Good luck.

Traditional-Fist

I am currently training in Northern Mantis. I just began taking a Chi Kung class on the advice of my Sifu, so it can do nothing but help. He is also working with me to modify my weight training to help more with my current fitness level and my M.A. needs.

Northern Praying Mantis is a high level style of kung fu and if your school/sifu is good and authentic, then this style will give you a lot of benefits both as a fighter as well as a person. Is your chi kung class with the same sifu?

I am glad that you are practising chi kung, because without out it your kung fu will miss a very fundemental element, making it weak and without essence (no chi kung = no kung fu), and as I said before, your health will benefit in all dimensions. Does your school have a web site I could look at?

Apologies if this question has been asked before, I started Shukokai 6 months ago now and am on my Orange belt.

My questions are; 1) how different is Shukokai compared to Shito ryu and

2) Can anyone reccoemned a good shukokai video to help learn katas and combinations etc

Thanks a lot in advance

Andy

If my memory serves me right, Shukokai is based on Shito-ryu karate, or at least the founder of Shukokai was a Shito-ryu master. As a result I believe there will inherently be many similarities between the styles. If I would have to hazard a general guess, then I would say that Shukokai is a more sporty (or sport friendly) style than the older Shito-ryu.

First time poster here. I am 36, and started taking Kung Fu back in March. Lately I have been questioning my ability to be good in the art. I have arthritic knees, and I have been working towards improving their strength and flexability. In all I go to material class five to six times a week, and conditioning class twice a week. I also lift weights during my lunch hour at work three days a week, and try to hit on the heavy bag at home when I have the time. With all of this, I have been disappointed with my progress. My kicks are not as good as I would like, my balance is less than stellar, and I still have problems getting down into a low stance. I enjoy the time I am in class, and do not have a problem learning the material. I just don't see myself improving as far as the implementation of the material goes. I have wondering if I am expecting alot for ony six months of study, or if I just am not very good at it. Anyone have any opinions they wish to share? Thanks for your time!

Some great advice from fellow forum members. Don´t over do your trainining, train right and NEVER even consider giving up.

Now, I would like to know what style of kung fu do you practise?

Also, the healing aspects of kung fu can never be understated. Do you practise chi-kung in a serious way in your school? Major styles of kung fu as practised in authentic schools take chi-kung practise very seriously.

I have no doubt that the right kind of chi-kung training will help your problem with arthritis.

Another question, does your sifu know about your weight training regime? Just lifting weights (pumping iron) in a gym is not something that correlates with correct kung fu training in general, even though weights CAN be used in a methodic manner for kung fu purposes, such as in resistance training,etc.

I am basically trying to find out what type of kung fu it is that you are practising, once I know, then perhaps I can give you more relevant advice.

I think you'd be surprised.

I think I would as well.

in the original vale tudo matches, there really were virtually no rules. The early UFC were similar. even if UFC fined you, the fight would continue, you wouldn't get DQed.

But that wasn´t my point. Also, you would probably get disqualified if you tiger clawed your opponents throat and killed him instantely. Luckily for everyone involved, there doesn´t seem to be any danger of anyone with such skills entering the UfCs.

not referring to the people you are referring to, but a lot of people think they are proficient. They think so until they find out otherwise. The sad thing is that due to lack of things like competitions or heck, challenges, many don't realize that.

You don´t need competitions to be a good fighter and initially anyway, you don´t learn to fight challenges by fighting challenges. There is a different methodology to traditional chinese martial arts training. Yes, real fighting does come into it, but usually in a different way.

Always apologize when its your fault.

elbows_and_knees,

I re-read your posts on this and began to really think about kata last night.

Thank you for that,

lets just look at kata just from a fighting aspect.

Kata is used to train muscle memory (no mind - mushin).

After many repititions, you no longer need to think which moves comes next - the kata just flows naturally.

(beginner belts get the form with one set of techniques, which is then practiced many times over.

After some time, that same person re-analyzes that same form [maybe visioning new techniques not displayed in the beginning] This person then practices the form many times over, but with the newer vision of techniques.)

In an actual fight, you do not have time to think what move you will be doing next. you will just re-act (using moves from kata)

That is absolutely right. That is the purpose of drilling. Now, let's think about a similar scenario. Instead of drilling a kata solo and going over bunkai solo, consider the person who drills the techniques repeatedly with a partner, getting live feedback, then works those same techniques in contact sparring. Who will be more apt - the guy doing partner drills, or the guy focusing on kata?

The guy doing both will be more apt then either one, and that is how karate was meant to be practised.

no doubt. there are several. chang tung sheng, wong fei hung, chan tai san, su lu tang, mas oyama... But in general, you will find more that won't than those that will.

That statement might hold true for kick boxers and grapplers as well. How many would participate in a REAL no holds barred fight if challenged by another martial artist that they had never met and outside of a formal event?

BTW. Both of my sifus have accepted challenges and have had great success against other stylists including kickboxers and one "not so friendly" match against a Bjj-er. There are other sifus/masters who do the same, they just don´t go around waiving their fists about, etc.

Here is another fact, many chinese gangsters are proficient in kung fu and as some here will know, they use their skills serious and even life or death encounters.

I think there is a wrong answer. san da, muay thai, mma, full contact kickboxing,bjj, judo etc. are all great. If you are "testing yourself" by entering point sparring competitions or by sparring in class, you may be fooling yourself.

My sifus and their advanced students are proficient fighters and they have not entered competitions and have not won one medal between them and they are proficient fighters. Couple of them were evem involved when one of my sifus was challenged (attacked) by multiple adversaries. Modern and Traditional martial arts "live" in a different reality at one level at least, that is the training methods/concepts of one is difficult to understand by practioners of other and vice versa.

they won't do a lot of things, which is why there is so much controvery about "real" kung fu today. Nobody really knows what is real anymore. regardless, I can't even think of any legends I've heard of involving a throat being completely ripped out...

If nobody doesn´t know what is real anymore, it is because kung fu has been turned into a fast food enterprise.

If you don´t believe that there are kung fu masters who can tear your throat then lets give another example, where a kung fu master claws the wind pipe and snaps it. The point is that the end result is the same: a dead adversary. Such techniques are and will never be allowed (thank god) in UFC style competitions.

TMA who compete have the same opportunity. a boxer avoids fighting on the street as well. testing yourself regularly though, is a different animal, and a missing component from some tma.

There are many masters, both kung fu and karate, who have never "competed". Traditionally, people who had doubts about any master´s ability (or their own), went ahead and challenged them. This happens even today.

To draw a comparison, there is also grappling in Muay Thai when you take into account that they're allowed to clinch up at the neck and throw knees. When a muay thai fighter fights someone who's a superior grappler than they are, the muay thai fighters knees are almost never seen. This is because the setup is more important that the attack, and since the other fighter is so much more skilled from the clinch, the muay thai fighter is never able to attain a dominant clinch with which to utilize his knees. So against another striker whos not trained in clinch work, it could possibly work- against someone else who knows what to do from there, its very unlikely.

Wing Chun kung fu grappling, at least in the lineage that I practise, HAS ground fighting and grappling. There are other kung fu styles such as the Praying Mantis (Northern) that have such grappling. Kung fu has been developing for thousands of years. It is illogical to think that the masters who developed and improved kung fu through the centuries did not consider grappling or groundfighting scenarios.

E&K said it all about how big amateur fighting is, and not only that but take into account all the tournaments helds by all martial arts. As far as professional fighters are concerned, they barely make money at all. King of the Cage is probably the largest NHB tournament in the US after the UFC. Typical pay for fighters in those events runs about $300- $500 a fight. Championship belt holders can make as much as $4000, which is quite pathetic.

It is still money. Lets make it free and not charge the public any entrance money. Also, don´t forget that some of these fighters are themselves instructors themselves or at least belong to some schools that have a lot to gain FINANCIALLY if their fighter wins. that is they gain.students,publicity etc.

Those that are humble often times just choose to be so. What will often times frustrate both the humble and the arrogant of those fighters is listening to those who can claim expertise over them when they've had almost no fighting experience whatsoever and are unwilling to back up their claims.

Based on my own martial arts experience of martial arts and life in general, those who have proven themselves never need the feel to be arrogant and tend to be humble, unless they psychological issues to resolve.

Also, people who choose to participate in sport activities should at least learn the art of sportmanship. It is not too much to ask.

Bear in mind that Im not saying that you or your sifu arent skilled or that you may fall into this category, but I hear that all the time- people who have the "real" kung fu. The problem I have with such things is, once again, people are unwilling to back up their statements (using excuses such as honor, loyalty, deadliness, etc.) and beyond their talk have no evidence with which to support their claims (except for loyal practitioners). No amount of belief makes something a fact.

Here is a fact. Real kung fu does exist so does Mc Kung Fu, (majority of schools, unfortunately). What I am curious about is which type of kung fu are you using as a reference in this discussion? What is your experience of real kung fu? For how long?

Well, thats because we've actually seen bullets kill people, so there is evidence to support that. Once again, to draw on another analogy, there are breaking competitions all the time showing people crashing through many blocks of concrete and brick, something a pro boxer couldnt probably do, yet the pro boxer will still ko more people.

I have come across a news story where a man (a karate practioner) killed another with a karate chop to the throat. You don´t have to stretch your imagination very far to see that a tiger claw attack will have the same effect. Admitedly there are more people who are proficient in karata then there are who are proficient in Tiger Claw kung fu. That is not my fault , but that is what the system is all about, where the bottom line is to kill your adversary, not to win medals.

Chi has never been scientifically proven and is therefore not presentable as evidence.

It has not been proven to exist by "western science" that has achieved great hights in helping human kind, but unfortunately it is the same science. whose experiments have "proven" that Fluoride is a safe substance to have in our drinking water; that Aspartame is a safe food additive; that countless other poisons that enter food chain are safe.

What I am saying here is that it is unwise for one to make western science as the beginning and end of all things.

Furthermore, chinese sciense accepts the existance of chi. Who is wrong?

right, but what I was saying was that regardless of the type of strike, hitting a small, moving and protected target can be difficult.

In the days, years and centuries when kung fu was being developed, a small moving and protected target was still a difficult target to hit. It depends on how the exponent is trainned. Unfortunately, because of Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenon one is not very likely to come across authentic kung fu, and as a result some of the more complicated concepts of kung fu are not easily appreciated nowadays.

don't you have to do at least some initial striking to form a bridge so you can close the gap?

No you don't.

having grappling in a few forms and actually training it are different things.

Of course they are. Authentic kung fu schools usually train them.

The grappling I have run across in CMA has been vastly inferior to what I've learned in judo and bjj,

That is your personal experience and I respect that.

but rightfully so, as cma isn't a grappling style.

That is true as far as there is a tendency on striking in most cma but I know for sure that you have heard of dog boxing (kung fu) and I also know that you know that there is ground grappling in cma.

On the same token, judo striking is inferior to cma striking.

Agreed.

And I'm not talking about shuai chiao and chin na. That is indeed in most major systems in some aspect.

.....And they can also be classified as cma's. They are also present in many traditional cma's and are trainned with vigour much more than "outsiders" imagine.

I am referring to ground grappling. not ground fighting, which is different.

Kung fu contains both ground fighting and ground grappling (using Chin-na techniques amongst others).

dude...

?????

do you have any idea whatsoeever how big amateur fighting is? they don't get paid for that.

No? Not a dime? Please say more.....

And even at pro level, the pay is small, unless you are a big name. money really isn't the motivation.

Money is not a motivation for many street fighters either. When you come down to it for them it is basically the adrenaline rush and some perverted love of violence or both. Of course, it can also be martial research, on some level, that is.

]said competitors are among the most humble people that I know.

That is your experience and I respect that.

I've trained with guys of great skill, like yang jwing ming.

Wasn't that just a seminar?

Regardless, I doubt they could rip a person's throat out, despite how conditioned their hands are.

Your statement is based on your experience and understanding of CMA's and your own main practise in martial arts.

Have you ever SEEN them do this?

No I haven't asked my sifu to tear someones throat in front of me so that he can prove he can do it.

you changed your scope. I'm not talking about tearing muscle. I'm talking about ripping their throat completely out. that's what you initially said.

I believe that my statement above that of yours says it all.