baronbvp

My Shorin-Ryu dojo used kata as a way to determine early belt advancement. Unfortunately, some people who were good, natural fighters were not very good at memorization of a sequence of moves and it took them longer. More absurd is someone with a medium grade belt who knows and can execute some smart kata but can't fight very well. I don't personally care much about belts. I do care about fighting prowess. If kata help improve that, then practicing them is good. I did get a certain sense of satisfaction from correctly executing them. But I never did them long enough to put my own style signature on any of them.

Equally true. I am going to stay signed up for the full contact KB class I am about to start. At this point in my life, I will just set the conditions of my training. I am looking forward to learning additional KB strategy and tactics, practicing of forms, honing technique, and some medium full contact sparring. I will not fight a young 20-something who goes all-out to be the baddest dude in the class if he considers a significant injury to another classmate "the cost of training." Others on this thread have made excellent replies about doing a variety of training including kata repetition. I like to do kata alone or along with my Shorin-Ryu renshi, on DVDs he made. It's a matter of making room in my life for it. One thing I haven't seen anyone mention: seeing a practiced martial artist practicing kata outdoors, in a park or at the beach, always makes me smile. From tai chi to violent forms, there is spiritual beauty in all of it. Harmony between nature and the body.

I suppose I could be answering my own question. I've never hurt myself doing kata.

Havoc88, it's still a good question. Your post is timely; I am already reconsidering whether I even want to start KB and BJJ. At this point in my life, getting the crap beaten out of me during training may be educational, but the potential for injury is high. Mostly, I just miss the dojo environment and fighting itself. Until Shorin Ryu, almost all of my training has been in classes or one on one with actual practicing of various forms. I enjoyed practicing kata for what it is. But I like to fight because I learn more about fighting while doing it - like football players learning more during the intensity of a game. You're right, I don't expect to have to prove myself to some 25 year old on the street. But I also want to be ready in case the unforseen ever arises. I just don't want to get injured practicing...

This is a great subject that I feel strongly both ways about. Without reading all 35 pages of the thread, it looks like the standard two views with the moderate middle advocating "to each his own." To me, it comes down to daily practicality for a person. Back in the day when the masters had a year and half to spend in the mountains alone, doing kata may have made sense. Many of the best posts on this entire forum are from very experienced martial artists who have formed their positive views of kata after years of practice and contemplating the kata. Many of us, however, have limited time and aren't able (or willing) to devote that kind of time to training. Over my life I have practiced various martial arts and combat arts. Most recently I was in Shorin Ryu and became frustrated with the "excessive" time we spent on kata. I am 45; I don't have years to hone my kata. I want to learn how to actually fight better, and get a workout in, and have some physical contact with an opponent on offense and defense. I have now switched to KB and BJJ, because they interest me and I have a busy life. When I go to my dojo, I want to practice fighting. I want to learn and practice effective forms with a partner - proven, actual techniques against a live partner trying equally hard to neutralize me. I have no desire to practice a kata, for example, that dismounted horse warriors from another era used to move aside another's body armor in order to strike a lethal blow. And when I get home, I have other stuff to do. Would I like to have time to practice some of the kata I already know? Sure, and I will probably do so every so often. But I also lift weights, and work, and run my family. So spending time on kata in class is not worth my limited time and money. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, because I have the deepest respect for the traditions and current state of martial arts. It's just reality of life in the 21st century America. Kata are not as good a use of my time to learn to fight as fighting is.

Great posts by all. I had to leave my dojo when I went on deployment, then I moved across the country this year. I am switching to kickboxing and BJJ because they are offered nearby. We'll see if I miss doing kata...

Totally understandable.

I learned to shuffle my feet when I fenced in high school. I'm not sure if you could consider fencing a martial art, but many of the movements are similar. I couldn't bounce now if I wanted to, which is good.

I recommend busting your you-know-what, week in and week out, at the dojo and at home. That's the only way it will happen in any legitimate system.

What matters is what prepares YOU for combat.

Uppercuts are hard to defend against, too.

Good point, mai tai. Work on the stuff you're not good at against a weak opponent. Also, if you are trying to practice a specific thing, then ask your sparring partner to indulge you. For instance, if you want to to practice keeping your guard hand up while you punch, have them do what Guy Who Fights said -- punch you each time you drop it. If you want to work on defense-offense-defense, have your opponent strike-defend-strike against you. Then return the favor. It's amazing what you can learn when you focus on a specific area, instead of going all out every time. Last, fight people who are better than you. (You will for awhile anyway). Have them tell you what they see you doing right and wrong while you are actually fighting them. Talking while fighting also forces you to B-R-E-A-T-H-E.

I have to think about throwing an uppercut, and usually only when I'm already in close. It doesn't usually occur to me while sparring. For me the hard part is the front foot pivot becasue it changes my body flow. But if that juicy chin appears -- oh man, it's the perfect punch.

Thaegen, this is a good post. I have found the same thing with my hybrid style. Over the years I have learned a little of many styles, instead of a lot of one style. I started shorin-ryu karate about four months ago, but when sparring I am still more comfortable using mostly kickboxing and boxing style. I mix though. My stance shuffles instead of bounces, I keep my hands up and elbows in like a boxer, I go straight at my opponent with very fast, aggressive strikes from the shoulder that overwhelm a defense. But more like MA, I do more blocking inside and outside, high and low whereas a boxer would do more ducking, slipping, and weaving. I use my open hands where a boxer keeps fists. I change from leading with my right (I am southpaw) to leading with my left when I get tired or the situation dictates. I kick mostly front kicks and some roundhouse, and mostly with my lead leg. I also block with my leg and use it to begin or finish a combination. I use elbows and knees. I actually like getting hit (some) which is why sparring is my favorite night of class. I think you learn from fighting people with other styles, even if you don't want to incorporate any of those elements in your own style. What I am trying to learn now from shorin-ryu is to focus on one style and learn the background, the logic, and the artistry of what I think is a beautiful style. Next time I go sparring (which we do Friday nights), I will change from my comfort zone style to a learning style. More karate footwork with pivots and stances. More strikes besides only punches and kicks. Striking from the belt with my hips swiveling, instead of straight from the shoulder with a forward weight shift. I have to get use to not targeting the face since we aren't allowed to do that with sparring rules. (This is hard for me, breaking years of training!) I need to expand my repertoire of kicks and attacks from different angles. So I will focus less on what I know, and more on what they are trying to teach me. I also want to take our sparring from striking to grappling on the ground, which my senseis have agreed to begin teaching. I think you are doing very well. You see what works. You are watching how your current style works against a style that you've never sparred, and you are observing the strengths and weaknesses of your new style in action. I recommend focusing on MT for awhile, and when you get good then you can start adapting it to suit your own personal body strengths and style/technique preferences.

My sister is a kickboxing instructor. She likes it because it's a combination of great workout, useful street-effective technique, and they practice fighting instead of learning kata. Many women are limber enough to do it well so that may be another reason you see so many. She's also a surgeon, so Muay Thai is out of the question because she can't afford to get hurt training.

The other bad part about strikes to the chin is the possibility of suffering jaw damage, especially to the joint. That is hard to recover from. It's amazing how much we take the ability to chew or talk with a pain-free jaw for granted.

Foreheads are to use for headbutting, not for targets. Good remarks about trauma to the brain. The defining injury of the current war in Iraq is brain trauma. The body armor is so good now that people survive the frag but the force of the blast shakes them up so badly they suffer permanent brain damage. Protect your head because "if you kill the head, the body will fall."

Try switching your lead from left to right and back in the middle of a match. That screws people up. You can use whichever arm is best for any situation.

Don't forget to breathe!

I can't headkick either; I'll never be limber enough for that. But I don't see that as a disadvantage and I've seen some guys get wacked good in the groin by exposing themselves with high kicks. I think a good early lesson is paying attention to when you should kick versus punch versus use a knee or elbow. And your conditioning will pick up but first you will get worse and hit the wall and feel like it will never get better. Stick with it and keep us posted!

Good post, Seven Star. And Mr. Pockets is right, keep your hands up. It's the number one rule, and MAN will they get tired! Keep your abs tight. Learn how to punch without hurting your wrists or the small fingers on your hands. Learn early how to get out of the way of the other guys' punches. Work on your footwork as many people overlook that aspect. Don't forget to breathe while you are fighting. Relax until you make contact, or you will tire yourself out being all tensed up. Last, don't forget to realize how fun it is in the middle of your matches. javascript:emoticon('8)')

I don't think he can let go. As much as I'm not really a fan of his due to his lack of integrity and class -- especially after biting off Holyfield's ear -- I hope he suceeds. He's a helluva fighter.

I agree. At my dojo anything you know is fair game on a belt test. Their standard is ten mistakes of any kind allowed on a belt test, plus the subjective assessment. (You suck, you don't suck.) So if you demo everything you are expected to know, from Kihon 1 through the highest kata required for that belt level, you are still only allowed ten mistakes total. If you make five mistakes in the first six kihons, you only have five to go on all the rest of your kata. I have no desire to tank a test and will ensure I know and have practiced everything before I test each time. That, and I agree with the philosphy. Even the Blue Angels still have to take off and land on every flight.

Snazzed, make one more post and you turn into a KF yellow belt. That should make you feel good! I just got back from class. During my private lesson before class, Sensei conducted a review. He started me at Kihon 1 and we worked through Fukyu Shodan. I have been traveling for work and missed class for awhile, so I was very glad I brushed up with the kata video for about 45 minutes this evening before class. That way I didn't show my you-know-what when asked to demo my kata. Granted I am only a yellow belt, but I learned some new things and relearned some other things tonight. It was great, and the nuances that make everything so effective make me smile and glad to be corrected.

Apparently I'm no MMA, thank you all for clearing that in my mind. Now I understand the difference. What I like about a pure style, that I never learned as well before during my hodge-podge training, is the physics behind it -- little technique that makes everything more effective. These nuances have obviously been perfected over hundreds and in some cases thousands of years. I am that grasshopper, and happy to be so.