pers

I coulden't have said it any better ,as for kankudai ,it is one of my favourites too!

Any technique could be deadly when perfomed correctly , an oie zuki or a mawashigeri to the side of the head can be deadly when performed with good timing and speed and power .

Speed ,power ,grace are the main factors of shotokan. shotokan system is to maximise the power of techniques through correct usage of the whole body ,to develop how to maximise the speed of the techniques by using the correct breathing and the use of muscles . It is very effective in the street once a certain level of understanding and competency has been achieved ,once basics have been mastered and one moves beyond that stage to develop his own range and understands his own body type and use the stance and techniques that works best for him. To start ,novice students learn long range stances and techniques to develop their body and mind ,long and hard training is needed to make them work like second nature. Imagine shotokan as a tree , the trunk of the tree is the basics that one learns in the beginning ,this must be strong and powerful . then comes the branches that are soft and flexible and fast . Shotokan is strong in the centre ,soft and agile in the outside. but it is a long and at times slow process ,sometimes frustrating as one gets stuck behind what seems to be a brick wall ,but with perseverence and good instruction it will reward the practitioner fully.

You are probably talking about Keinosuke Enoeda, or am I wrong? Yes .indeed ! master enoeda , I had the honour of training under his guidence a number of times .

If I had to choose one between my favourites Hangetsu is the one ! but sochin ,Gankaku,Nijushiho,Kankudai are the one's I like .

Books and videos should be used as an aid to your dojo training under a qualified instructer ,in other words these can not be a substitute to learning in dojo .I would personally not rush to learn new katas before shodan .much practice is needed to perfect and understand kyu grade katas .the more you advance in learning each kata it would serve you much when you come to advance katas . there is no short cut in karate ,all the katas are there for a purpose . it is much better to know and understand and perform the kata of your grade than try and do a kata that is beyond one's understanding at the time .it is not just about copying the moves but one must come to the level of understanding through proper instruction.

shotokan student former KUGB and shotokan of England karate union member Nidan since 1995 Academy of shotokan karate by sensie Dave Hazard 7th dan

Our late chief instructer master Eneada recieved his 8th dan from JKA in 1977 and after that he refused to accept any higher grade .Even though he was chief instructer of JKA in europe as well . I would not personally pay any attention to these self claimed 10th dans ,it is the ability of their karate that concerns me. In other words action speak louder than words!

I agree ,weight training has its own benefits of supplimenting one's physical activities, in our case karate .

Maybe the reason could be similar to the way some athletes use wrist and ankle wieght for conditioning ! but they don't use it in the competition just in training .

Thanks for your support ,especially since you are from another respectable school of wadoryu . OSS !

shorinryu sensei ,you have been involved in karate a long time ,however as you have stated your knowledge of shotokan is limited to your local dojo and the one you briefly visited in UK . I recommend to you to make an indepth research in shotokan ,then you will have a far better understanding of what shotokan really is . I try to point you in the right direction by this brief introduction of shotokan in the western world. Japan Karate Association the main body of shotokan sent its cream of crop to the west in order to spread shotokan in the 60s .these were kanazawa ,Enoeda ,kase ,shiraie ,Oichi ,Nishiyama and .... We were lucky in England to have Enoeda sensie 8th dan(all japan champion) as our chief instructer ,together with Kanazawa and then on his own they inturn produced some very good instructers and karatekas which were responsible for my training in turn.but in between there were people who learned a bit of basics to around brown or shodan but then broke away to form their own school and train students who some then went to form their own schools thus bringing the standards down .Living in the USA you must be well aware of this as it happens over in your neck of wood as well ! This is a problem not only with shotokan but all othr styles . I recommend you get hold of the Dynamic karate book by late Nakayama sensie 9th dan chief instructer of JKA which is known as the bible of shotokan karate ,then you may be able to pass a fair judgement on this style of karate . As you mentioned that if I come to your dojo ,I may find your stances weak and not practical ,I can not pass a comment as I have no real knowledge of your style but being an okinawan style i am more positive towards it than negative. regards

Yes, I understand this. But as Shorin Ryuu stated, and I agree with this..you will do in a real fight what you train to do in the dojo. There are a multitude of training practices to strengthen your body, and I feel that teaching your body to use those exercises in kata and such is a bad habit to get into. 6 years of training in shorin ryu and all this talk ? In that case ,I rest my case and let you get on with it ! but you reply to my statement on basic stance and say yes ,I understand this but .... !

Thankyou for your mature post ,what you are describing from shorinryu is exactly the same concept that I have learned in shotokan . relax status ,speed and power ,the only way that a small person can overcome with superior technique . I am 186 cm and weight about 100kg ,my sensie is much smaller than me . but more or less I experience the same thing you had with sensei Kuda .I can lift things much heavier than my sensie but I don't have his dynamic strenght and speed .shotokan done properly is about the perfection of technique thus allowing some one with less physical strenght over come a much more physically stronger opponent.I think I have explained about it in another thread earlier(shorinryu can dig it out and see ! ) what I was saying to shorinryu is that ,but he is saying to me with 20 years of shotokan training that shotokan is inefficient ,rigid ,no indepth training and ineffective and rely on muscle strenght ! without spending any time in a good shotokan dojo ! This dilema includes other styles of karate taught by micky mouse instructer in macdojos who are purely doing it for money and don't have much to offer apart from flashy diplomas and badges to please students . of course I get upset from this attitude towards my style as some one with limited knowledge and working on pure speculation is holding a debate with me and although I replied his critics ,he is still saying to me that you have not done what you say you have in shotokan ,because he spoke to some ? shotokan instructer and therefore He knows what shotokan is ! by the way the stance you mentioned by Kuda sensei as if he was waiting for the bus is what we are taught when we do basic one attack kumite. legs wide as shoulders .knees slightly bend ,relax with no tension ,ready to go! when we punch ,there is only a slight tension in your fist ,but no tension in the arms and forearms .Does this sound familier to you ? Basic stances and moving between them is an aid to condition your body to move with speed . from 1985 to 1987 I had to join the local university club as my time table would not allow me to train in the club I wanted to .Instruction was limited and not that good (looking back now) grading was easy pizzy ! I got the brown belt and then I could train in the club I wanted to .but surprse ,surprise ! my level in that club was like a yellow belt not brown ! I spent the next 9 years ,until a year after I graded nidan ,doing both the basic and then brown & black belt classes .so it took me 5 years from brown to shodan ! because I had to first forget what I was taught before and learn the basics correctly ! basic training in shotokan as my sensei says is like paying tax ! once you learn to attack from a basic one attack kumite with speed ,then attacking in free form is like running on sand and running track ! do you see my point ?

Again, you're missing my point here. Stance transition relying more upon muscle power can be fast. No, it can be very fast. But biomechanical stances will always be much more fluid and efficient. So where is your explanation about the grappling and pressure points? I haven't seen it yet. Instead, I've seen you write posts in the past such as these: Muscle power is just one factor in delivering a good technique,not all ,grappling techniques and pressure points are also there ,even a shoto uke can be a strike or grappling ,depending on the circumstances. Dear friend ,good luck with your training ,there are grappling techniques in shotokan katas which you will come across ,first one I can think of is in heian sandan ] Not saying you are wrong but we learned that these movement as block and punch ,because of the speed this aplication in hein nidan ,we have learned that the slow movement in the kata where you apply tention are the grappling ones ,like the opening move of sochin . well I can not talk about heian nidan as you have no idea of it . First of all, I don't usually dig out a person's past posts, since many times as I continue to learn, my posts from a half-year ago or more may not even apply to how I view things. However, these posts were written a little more than a month ago in a Shotokan thread I revisted for a reality check. You went to great lenghts to find some thing to stand on !but I have the same opinion,see my say about shotouke further up. Secondly, your very answer to this belies the difference. An Okinawan karateka would have answered that there is grappling in nearly every move of every kata. This is quite a marked difference than your answer. Also, when you state that "slow movement in the kata where you apply tention [sic] are the grappling ones", that shows the difference as well. Okinawan kata does not do such things, since nearly every single move would have to be done very slowly and with tension. The fact that there is a difference in speed like that points to a lack of depth in analysis. There isn't an established speed or tempo for kata (and I'm sure you realize this, so I'm not accusing you of saying that), but framing it in the way you did makes it sound suspect in terms of this discussion. Of course there is grappling in Shotokan, but the depth and level of it is often lacking. Yes I am not okinawan ,well spotted !! and I learned that slow movement in kata(shotokan) done with tension are grappling (holding the opponent ) It is amazing that you claim the lack of depth in analysis about some thing you have no personal experience with ,but you think you have indepth knowledge of shotokan without spending an hour of training in shotokan !! very mature ! No matter what I say, apparently you will just repeat yourself. I may even look into getting that video, provided it isn't too much money. But this will be my last post in this thread. I'll let you have the last word. Who are these masters of shotokan that you claim to have met and they all agree with you that shotokan is inefficient ?! you better take them to your shurin ryu school and teach them your efficient and effective system !

I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly on this one, but it seems you are claiming that Shotokan does the 3/4 punch as well. If such was a systematic change, then that would make me surprised, but rather happy. Don't get me wrong. There's even Okinawan styles that teach it one way and then teach the 3/4 punch later. I've never seen the need for that distinction. What's more, I can't buy the explanation that every single Shotokan person I met has only trained under a crappy instructor. It is perhaps similar to when you start to learn read and write .If you know what I mean ! Apparently, you didn't quite grasp my point. I understand the difference between "training stances" and "practical stances". Whenever I've seen Shotokan kata, they are always done in "training stances". My argument is "train how you fight, fight how you train Well you see ,the diferrence is your experience in shotokan is with those who have never progressed to the next stage and you think thats it ! If I ever reside in your town and find out that shotokan dojos are exactly the way you describe then i would happily come and train in shurin ryu or any other style that is taught by a good instructer ! When you see two of our senior members of my club fighting ,you would not be able to diferrentite them from a street fight and stance ,do I make sense ? is this the shotokan you have come across ? While you seem to have addressed only one or two of my points (unsatisfactorily, in my opinion), you didn't answer the others. We might just have to "agree to disagree". My position still stands. I think I covered most of your points ,you are saying shotokan is inefficent ,rigid deadlock stances that don't allow you to move fast ,lack of indepth training ,concept of blocking wrong ,no grappling or pressure points ? And I am saying to you that the information given to you is wrong ! you can find all that in a shotokan club run by a credible instructer ,not a desperate dan ! we do age uke (rising block ) as a stike just to give you an example ,in all 27 katas of shotokan you can find all the concepts you refer to as lacking in shotokan ,providing a knowlegable instructer can show and teach you , you are entitled to hold your position ,but this is the subject that you have no personal experience with . I recommend to you ,should you wish to find out, to get hold of the video or dvd of JKA 1987 nationals ,is one of the best and is avaiable from shotokan karate magazine ,it may give you an idea of what I am taliking about. it is quite amazing that some one with no personal experience of shotokan is telling us about shotokan ,don't you think you are out of your place ? Since you live in California ,why not go along to one of Nishiyama sensei's seminars or classes and find out where you are wrong ,I am sure killer miller would be to happy to help you. if you ever come to England ,let me know and I will quickly change your point of view by taking you to a proper shotokan dojo !

I see ! if that shotokan instructer agrees with you that shotokan stances are ineffective as you pointed out in #3 then one must question his background ! can you tell me how long have you actually trained in shotokan ,you might be a master in shurin ryu but you are telling me just because you have come across some watered down version of shotokan practiced in parrot fashion then you know all about it .If you haven't seen a good shotokan dojo or a master (as it is obvious you haven't ) it does not mean there aren't any .I have had the opportunity to train under some great masters of shotokan ,including Enoada ,kase ,shiraie ,Hazard,higgins ,kawasoe ,O'neil .if you have ever seen any of them doing karate you will instantly change your mind .especially the late Kase sensei chief of JKA france who was about 150 cm but weight like 100 kg! and in his sixties when I trained under him but moved with incredible speed and awsome power ,unbelievable from a man of his stature ,so after seeing these guys you are saying to me shotokan stances are ineffective ?! sorry my friend you had to see them ! what you are saying about full reverse punch 3/4 punch it is practiced in shotokan ,you see you are only talking about macdojo's ,yes as i explained im my first reply these guys never realy progress beyond brown belt or shodan ! cause the instructer is not capable ! basic shotokan training with full reverse punch is done ,just like the way oi zuki stepping punch is done ,every thing big ,same with front kick ,side and round house ,all done with exageration for a purpose muscle conditioning and body coordination to develop ! it is for training purpose! but one must progress past this stage onto the next level ,if they haven't don't blame shotokan ! . I can tell you what the normal fighting stance the way we do it is ,it is nothing like those deep heavily rooted front stance that you know of shotokan . backleg if fully bent and foot facing forward ,hill up the floor ,front leg is bent just enough to cover the top of the foot and the only point of contact with the ground is the ball of the foot .but those hard basic shotokan training will pay back hansomely to give dynamic action in swift movement. Just remembered this ,the late kase sensie used to teach late mas oyama when he was doing shotokan in the 40s !

Thanks for the response. My only concern about this is that in doing so, you train yourself to move relying more on muscular strength, thus the emphasis on "strong" whenever people talk about Shotokan stances. You are right in this sense. Those deeper stances allow for muscle development that make shorter stances "stronger", but it is making you rely more on the muscles than on biomechanical efficiency. It is because more natural stances do not rely on muscle that they will always be quicker and in my opinion, more combatively stable and effective with regards to muscle transition stances, even if those muscle transition stances are "higher and more natural". Relying on muscle is okay for people who are young and energetic in some cases. But when we talk about refinement and betterment of technique, you have to shift your training. Don't get me wrong, I am all for working out and getting stronger. But when it comes to something so combatively oriented as kata, I want to train the way I fight. Anything else would be detrimental in terms of efficiency in training. I'll go into depth about my thoughts on the punch later once I summon enough motivation. Even when you punch the keys of your key board to post your point of view you are relying on your muscles in your fingers ! .Basic shotokan training does condition the right muscles dynamically.This when done properly will form a strong foundation that would serve one a lifetime ! and would even help one in other sports ,in my case goalkeeping ! you may know much about okinavan style but your knowledge of shotokan seems to be limited.

I see the point you are making ,perhaps because shotokan is the most widely spread style in Karate and some of them are run by people who have limited knowledge of shotokan , most of them have never really progressed beyond shodan ! although they may claim to be this dan or that ! we all know about these so called instructers who progress in rank so repidly that they have to bleach their belt to white to catch up with the dan grades they claim! they don't do the art any favour . I have seen shotokan instructers and practitioners in deep and unrealistic stances which make me laugh but to blame shotokan for that is not fair. I have trained in shotokan only since 1984 and I do not consider myself an instructer or an expert in shotokan but I have seen people with no more than 3 years training who start teaching others and within a very short time they become a 3 rd or 4th dan ! so what do they have to offer ? in terms of karate ,not a great deal ,but they will hand out grades the same way they graded themselves providing you pay the fees ! But things are diferrent in a credible shotokan dojo ,you will not see those long rigid and deep stances ,but fluid and fast and powerful techniques ,detailed kata training and there are real instructers who are able to take students beyond brown belt and shodan ,something that those micky mouse instructers in macdojos can not do .Sure they offer grades and flashy diplomas and badges to keep students happy but thats all they can do ! It took me 8 years to grade for shodan and 3 years beyond that for nidan and I never felt good enough to grade for sandan ,but in another dojo maybe I could have been a 6th or 7th dan by now !! I must emphesise that this problem is not only with shotokan , other styles suffer from it too.

Very nicely said ! kata is all that you said

the main kicks as every one know are front kick ,side kick ,round house and back kicks ,then other variations are used in later years like the spinning back kick . It takes years to master these kicks to make them work effectively ,maybe twice as long as punches ! In shotokan every thing is based on strong foundations (fundementals) just being supple and able to kick high is not enough ,being able to find and hit a moving target EFFECTIVELY is the goal . In real combat ,the most effective and least risky is the front kick ,unless you are very confident and competent against your opponent you will find it difficult and risky to employ other kicks like the roundhouse or back kicks . It is the method that shotokan employs for example in the roundhouse that maybe diferrent to other styles .

How tense ? that depends on person's ability and time of training ,my sensie's kime is much more advanced than mine ,do you see what I mean ? as killer mentioned it is only for a split second ,the shorter the kime and faster it is performed ,providing all other factors involved are performed as good ,the more destructive is the technique!

Stance is the first important thing in Karate ,infact in any physical activiy .In karate we learn from basic forms diferrent stances ,on later years when you start doing kumite and sparring your basic training should allow you to move freely between stances with speed and fluidity but also having a firm grip on the floor . you can have a powerfull hand and a supple kick but if your base is weak or can't move well in a stance then your technique will be weak or an experienced opponent will take advantage of your sloppy stance. My fighting stance is zenkutsu dachi with my back foot facing the front ,in defence I would shift to side or back into kukutsu dachi , I use sochin dachi instead os zenkutsu acoarding to the angle of attack . I have played in goal in football for many years and I realised after some years of not playing football and just doing Karate (from 3rd kyu to shodan ) when I returned to football ,I was amazed of how much my goalkeeping has improved ! my reflexes and coordination and agility was much much better than before ,then I realised it is because of Karate and my stances ! especially Kiba dachi !