TSDforChrist

Anyone out there know of any video clips of these? (short stick and dagger for those who don't do the Korean thing )

Now, if that had been an option, do you think I would have asked on here? Really, the only martial arts instructor in my town is.... me.

I would like to slightly disagree...I'n not totallon the side of the self-taught, but with a basic foundation, understanding of the concepts behind swordplay (of any form) and as a bonus expereince in an open-hand style similar to the particular sword style, an instructor can be foregone out of necessity. It's not the best choice, but if one has been taught the basics, further ability can still be acheived. It just takes longer with no one but yourself to correct your mistakes.

I wouldn't object as long as it was unbiased...........

Were you saying the stabbing was accidental (physical form of turret's syndrome?) or intentional? I'm confused... I practice with a live sword...I cut my couch this morning, and my wife made me go outside. She's still afraid I'm going to cut myself.

I'm not saying it is not a composite art, but I do disagree with it being an offshoot of Shotokan, a Korean version of an art, or mostly based on a single other art. The core of these arts is a composite of traditional Korean arts.

Current Tae Kyon is NOT the traditional art - the original art did die out, unfortunately. Hwang Kee, TSD founder, to my knowledge did NOT have shotokan training. He did train in China, and did incorporate kata from a book by Funakoshi, but had also learned Tae Kyon by observing an instructor from a distance who had refused him (because he was too young).

Well, obviously, he's not a beleiver. "Tang Soo Do" and "Tae Kwon Do" are composite arts. They both incorporate Tae Kyon which was a traditional Korean martial art. It died at one point, and the Taekkyon practiced now is really just a guess. They also incorporated Soo Bahk (at least TSD did, im sketchy about that), another traditional Korean art. These arts did originate in China. They both have elements of the Hwa Rang stylings. There is a large Japanese influence, because Korea WAS occupied by Japan. For example, in TSD, the Pyeong'An hyung are the Pinan Kata of okinawan martial arts. These forms are found in many martial arts. There's really not much truth to the idea that the Korean people had no martial arts knowledge whatsoever until they took from the Japanese during the occupation, and while influence is prevalent, that's because they are composite arts. Despite the similarity, they are NOT an offshoot of Shotokan, because Shotokan as taught by Funakoshi was VERY different that Shotokan now - it had no similarity to either Korean art while he was alive, and guess what? He was still alive. Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do have very similar histories because they nearly became the same art. You know how you have different TKD kwons? Such as Chung Do Kwan, etc.? TSD was almost the Moo Duk Kwan. Now, there is a TKD Moo Duk (sp on the TKD one?) Kwan, beause when Hwang Kee (TSD founder) decided he wanted to keep TSD separate from the other Korean martial arts that were merging, some of his students split and stayed TKD. This could have easily happened to any of the other TKD kwons, something I don't think TSD practitioners pay enough attention to. We're really not all that different, from our origins. Now, some people will argue the veracity of my statement, for various reasons. One of these, as well, is reactionary to the fact that some Koreans claim that all non-Chinese martial arts came from them (truthfully, its possible...but not likely. Its a story about a Korean martial arts master who traveled to some islands, taught the inhabitants,etc... if you connect those islands with Okinawa, where does THAT leave you?)Honestly, no one position is provable or factually more sound than the other. It ends up a question of what YOU want to beleive. If it seems to you more logical that your art is simply Koreans stealing, that its a permutation of something else, and that there is no early Korean Martial art influence, then fine, believe that. I will continue to believe otherwise, however. I nencourage you to do more research into the topic before deciding, however.

hey, thanks!

Well, maybe if I bump this up to the top I might get a response....

Hm, I wish there was some way I could learn it, or observe someone performing both halves of the form. As for describing it, I would appreciate it if you are willing to give it a shot, but that's up to you.

I'm not sure books/videos, etc. are all that useless or "reference only". after a strong foundation of basics (i.e. black belt level), they can serve as supplemental training. If you understand the concepts behind what you already do, I imagine one could even learn an entire (similar) art - but only then. I would, however, invest a serious amount of time in an art with an instructor first, and make sure the basics are grounded. For example, I have been in Tang Soo Do for 12 or 13 years now, and I am a 4th Dan. I would just now consider attempting to learn a similar art from a non-instructor resource, from my understanding of technique and application. I think videos are better, especially if you know what to look for (watch the video through as if you are watching a student that you are teaching, see what techniques are done, make frequent use of the pause button, and see how/why those techniques are done). It is much much easier to learn from an instructor, and far harder to screw up your muscle memory, but quality instruction from a non-instructor resource is possible, given these factors.

You're stationed at Ft. Rucker? Near Dothan, AL? I'm less than an hour south of you, in FL. Do you know how long before you go anywhere else? I'd be more than willing to work with you and some of your friends - my core art is Tang Soo Do. I know that your options are severely limited from your location. I only know what is in Dothan, I don't know about any surrounding areas, but for your situation I would advise against the ATA center on the circle. I know Sensei Tharpe from the CKA, but his schedule is extremely limited - he is also a fireman. What I have heard of the Yoshukai places is its nothing but point sparring, also not very useful. I would definitely not advise reliance on videos without some sort of base in a martial art, and a thorough grasp of the basics. I could come and work with you guys some, for your specific situations, depending on your schedule. However, I leave friday until after the new year, so if its crunch time I can't help much. PM me if there is anything I can do to help.

Most fights end up on the ground......unless you are lucky, very very good, or insanely strong/lucky, a real confrontation will end up on the ground. Period. I wouldn't ignore striking, but I sure wish I knew more grappling...

You know, I don't know if it is the same form or not. I would think with all the effort from some to find it, someone might have noticed it by now. I would love to know more about the Chang Kwon. Do you know the hyung, or some way I might see it, or even a listing of the movements in it?

The kwan style would be the "kwan system", or the traditional Korean method of teaching as an art (traditional being how it was originally done with the creation of the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan and various Tae Kwon Do Kwans. Ask your instructor which specific kwan your TKD is for a little more info than I can give). The sport style would focus more on competition, point sparring technique, etc.

The Tae Guk Kwan is probably the highest form you will get taught...and it could be called the highest form in the system, I suppose. You see, the So Rim Jang Kwon was known by Hwang Kee, who is now dead, and I beleive it is currently known by his son (possibly another individual, I'm not sure) - and neither of them are talking. Hwang Kee simply would not teach the form. Neither will the one person who is alive and currently knows it. Rumor does, however, say that his version, when performed, is somewhat different than Hwang Kee's version (though I'm not sure how this comparison is acheived...?). There are quite a few people in the traditional Tang Soo Do world that would dearly love to rediscover the form. The current most popular opinion is that it contains 47 (I think) movements, and could be discovered by analyzing Northern Shaolin Long Fist forms. Honestly, it is likely that it is one of those forms, or is a minor-modified version of one (such as the Korean Pyeong'Ans are the Pinan/Heian forms). Hopefully someone will either reveal it or figure it out, so I can learn it

The Pyeong'An hyung are traditional - you can find them in many martial arts, even those Okinawan and Japanese, not just the Korean ones. They are also traditional to the kwan style of TaeKwonDo. The later-created poomse (you Taeguks) are relatively recent forms, and have more to do with the sport aspect of your art (IMO). It's not a question of "Tang Soo Do" and "Tae Kwon Do" forms, its "traditional" and "newly-created". Sounds to me, from the requirement of the traditional forms for promotion, you are being taught the art, kwan-style, not the sport.

Actually, I think the "highest" hyung in Tang Soo Do would be So Rim Jang Kwon, the "lost hyung". It is a Northern Long Fist form.

Does anyone have any resources whatsoever for these hyung? I know Chil Sung il ro and e ro, but that's it. Technically, I don't need to know any of them, but I'd like to learn them just for my own personal acheivement. Can anyone help me?

Many of the traditional forms are found in several different styles of martial arts. Tae Kwon Do, when done as the kwan system, is perfectly fine. The preponderance of sport TKD schools, however, tends to leave a bad taste in the mouths of many. These are the school that teach you to respond to a kick by crossing your arms over your chest to avoid a point score...Tang Soo Do is unique among other arts for its emphasis on defensive and offensive hip movement, its increased use but not reliance on legs, and a tendancy to move circularly in a linear fashion ( i.e. sidesteps, angled steps, but not circling.). Minor differences in technique also differentiate it, though those become fewer when compared to other Korean arts.

To the best of my knowledge, the name changed because of Hwang Kee's personal evolution of art. Within the "official" Moo Duk Kwan, the replacement of the P'yeong'an hyung with the Chilsungs and addition of the Yuk Ro hyungs, all created by Hwang Kee, began to spark changes in the style sufficient that Hwang Kee wanted a name change. He felt he had reached the next step in the evolution fo the martial art. Now, everyone didn't change, because Tang Soo Do, even MDK practitioners, were not all part of the "official" MDK. Soo Bahk Do, as a "newly-birthed" martial art, looked somewhat juvenile compared to what its parent was doing, and so those not indoctrinated in the Soo Bahk Do culture didn't make the switch. In reality, the two are even closer than TSD and TKD, but the continual evolution of the respective arts is beginning to show greater divergance. In the most non-complete and simplified summary statement, Soo Bahk Do traded Okinawan influnce for greater Chinese influence in hyungs (the Chinese influence in Kee's Chilsungs is undeniable). Time, of course, will tell how that affects the techniques and applications of the arts

Does anyone know of a website at which one can get reliable Hangul embroidery done for belts? No where I can find is willing to translate from English.

Most of the changes involve the use of defensive/offensive hip and a greater emphasis on the push/pull of technique. The P'yeong'An forms were incorporated by Hwang Kee from books he studied while working for the railroad, in China. There was a library in the same building as the office in which he worked. This was after his private study, and study in China of martial arts, but prior to the independance of Korea and official formation of Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan as a "registered" martial art.

gee, and I just went and bought 6 ft of 1 1/4" dowel rod at the hardware store for my jang bong (bo). LOL