TSDforChrist

So, then, a betturo cha gi would be....? I think I am confused. Wait, are you saying a peet cha gi is not inverted like this, but rather comes at an angle from the outside? That's really odd! Im not doubting you in the slightest, just everyone I know in the TSD/SBD world calls this "twisting kick" a peet cha gi. I wonder how we have ended up different groups of people using the same Korean name for different techniques (english mix-ups I understand, but this is weird!). I'm going to have to look into this some more (I wish my Korean was better, because that would simplify this...). In Christ, Phil Stewart

Yup - focus and technique. Its really not that much special, it's more of a trick. I have taught someone with no previous martial arts training to break two cement blocks in about half an hour (to play a joke on his wife - coincidentally it caused him to want to train with me, lol). So once you "get" the trick, there's nothing to it. In Christ, Master Phil Stewart 4th Dan Tang Soo Do

Hm, every resource and everything I have been taught calls it a bit (or peet) cha gi. I suppose twisting kick is a good name for it, though, lol. Either way, I love that kick! In Christ Phil Stewart

Nuts, I don't think it worked. The url is http://image10.webshots.com/11/3/62/38/132136238ZgxOCu_fs.jpg

Knee comes up, chambering like a front kick, foot rotates about 15-30 deggrees inward(clockwise) and then snaps out hitting with the ball of the foot, resulting in what is essentially a front kick at an oblique angle (or an upside down roundhouse, but I think it is more related to a front kick). It can be done as a straight technique, like a hard-to-block front kick (because of the angle) or with a little more twist as a semi-circular technique (if kicking with right foot, striking opponent's right cheek). https://www.soobahkdo.com has H.C. Hwang doing it in their logo, but you can't really tell where it is aimed (and it looks more like a crescent kick if you don't know how he got there). Here's a really massive picture, I don't know how to get it any smaller, sorry. http://image10.webshots.com/11/3/62/38/132136238ZgxOCu_fs.jpg

Actually, Master Powellete, if you consider these message boards as "correspondance" it is technically disrespectful for me to claim any TSD rank after you have spoken (i.e. it can now be considered addressed to you as well) since you are my senior. No, its not really a big deal, I was just using it to illustrate how far it could be taken. And I still will do it out of respect. In Christ, Phil Stewart

yeah, we are REALLY talking about different "butterfly" kicks here, haha

It does depend largely on dedication, and scheduling. Let's say you train in an art that requires, on average, about four years to get a 1st Dan ranking. (I am actually using my wife's plan and Tang Soo Do as my example). Let's also say, aside from personal practice, you spend two hours one-on-one with your instructor per week. Sound good so far? Well, that's 416 hours, over four years....or, four hours a week over two years.....or eight hours a week over one year. Now, I realize most students (and instructors! lol) don't have that kind of time for one-on-one instruction, but if you do, there's no reason you couldn't do it. My wife has the advantage of living with me, so it makes sense for her to put in that kind of effort. She will have certainly earned it if she gets her 1st Dan so quickly, and she will have put in just as much time as others - just more crunched together. In Christ, Phil Stewart

By a "butterfly kick", do you mean something like an oblique front kick (bit cha gi in Korean)? That is one of my absolute favorites - even in a self defense situation. Done properly, and hitting with the ball of the foot rather than the instep, you can create enough power and speed to do exactly what a boxer's hook punch is designed to do (assuming you can kick your opponent in the jaw flexibility-wise) and it rarely gets trapped due to the angle and the surprise factor. If you train for it, it can be a very quick fight-ender with that base of the jaw knockout (for those who don't know what I'm talking about, hitting slightly before the corner of the jaw can cause the bone to tap towards the brain, causing a knockout). I definitely prefer kicks ( ), but that is mostly because of my speed (both in the trap avoidance and power developing sense - remember your velocity is squared! I'd rather hit faster than harder any day) and the fact that I have enough flexibility to strike above my head with force. Any technique that is that powerful, and I can apply to more of my opponents I am in favor of - I can kick you from the shins to the top of the head, so I figure it is harder to guard that much area than the limited area I can reach with hand strikes. I don't totally abandon hand strikes, of course, it is simply a percentage of about 65/35. This is not necessarily something I would recommend to others, it is simply my preference. I have found that if I am in close enough to hand strike, I have to end it then or I'm done for (I'm 5'8, 130lbs), so I'd rather stand back and kick you, haha. Three cheers for kicks!

How seriously do you guys take your ettiquite? As a martial artist, do you follow traditional things about how you treat your seniors and instructor? Things like dining out - do you stand until your seniors are seated? Do you order in order of seniority? What about pouring drinks, or correspondance? I try to follow some of these things, for example, it's very annoying (not really, ) for me to post on these boards because I have to check and see if Master Powelette has posted before me - If he has, it is disrespectful for me to put "master" in front of my name. Does anyone else take it even this seriously?

I definitely teach values! but, then, I teach as a Christian outreach ministry as well as a martial art. I have a Bible study at the beginning (5 min or so), some object lessons throughout, and some creed-type repitition at the beginning and end of class. We also have prayer. In Christ, Phil Stewart 4th Dan Tang Soo Do

I have BCBS of FL, and pay about 190 a month for my wife and I - but we are both young, have no family illnesses or chronic conditions, and don't smoke.

Um, mattyj, I was trying to illustrate that at the time TSD was a generic word - the fact that many of the kwans that became TKD called their style TSD before making the switch is the same as them calling it "martial arts". So did TKD come from a "style" of TSD? Nope. But, was TKD at one time called TSD because TSD was used as a generic term for martial arts? At least in some kwans, yes. You are coming in even later in the discussion - bringing in Gen. Choi takes us to the unification (somewhat) of TKD, and the dying out of the kwan system (no, it never did die, but it sure has come close. You'd be surprised how many TKD practicioners there are that have no idea what kwan style they practice). That was after (even if just barely) anything called TSD was out of the picture (at least historically - locally I'm sure people called it whatever they wanted to, haha). In Christ, Phil Stewart 4th Dan Tang Soo Do

I'd just like to disagree about a couple of things: I'm pretty sure Hwang Kee did study in China - I don't think it is a myth. 15 styles of Tang Soo Do? I'm not sure I understand your assertion - are you saying 15 different kwans, 15 different arts called Tang Soo Do, or something else entirely? Oh, and could you list them, as well? Just wondering. In Christ, Phil Stewart 4th Dan Tang Soo Do

sign me up!

Actually, you are both wrong in some cases. True, the name Taekwondo was adopted in '55. Tae Soo Do was the name for the art of one of the original kwans. Hwang Kee took the name Tang Soo Do (using the same characters as Karate-Do) upon a suggestion from Won Kuk Lee, after Hwang's original martial art program failed (same art, but Tang Soo Do marketed better than Hwa Soo Do - the characters were familiar to those who lived through the Japanese Occupation). Taekwondo as a name was a national pride, government mandated change. Before that, the various kwans called their art many things, such as Tang Soo Do (Chinese/Empty Hand Method), Soo Bahk/Soo Bahk Do (Smashing Hand Way), Kwon Bup(Fist Method) or many other names that bore no relation to the arts that may currently bear those names. They were, in essence, a way of saying "Martial Arts" rather than referring to a specific art as we do in English. The Kwan affiliation was the determiner of art. When translating from Korean, you will also find that Korean nationals have a tendancy to use the terms Tang Soo Do, Soo Bahk Do, Tae Kwon Do and Martial Arts interchangeably. Hwang Kee wanted to use Tang Soo Do as the general term, but was denied by the government - Taekwondo became the general term. Now, in english, they refer to specific arts (except among those who are conscientious enough to differentiate between kwan). Confused yet? It gets worse. Remember, we are currently talking about Chinese characters pronounced in Korean, or Hanja, that when taken together have 2 or 3 different meanings. It gets worse when you try to read period history or find accounts written in Hangul - the "Soo Do" character alone has 11 different English translations. So what does it boil down to? You are both arguing over semantics. You are both right, because each of you is defining a word or phrase with a different English translation. Oh, and the date discrepancy about the use of Taekwondo as a name may stem from TSD history: They decided in '55, and Hwang Kee resisted. I think the power struggle (that eventually resulted in both a TSD and a TKD Moo Duk Kwan) lasted into the early 60's. So it's all about who is using the TKD name for when it was first used. In Christ, Phil Stewart 4th Dan Tang Soo Do

Forgive me for saying this, but the idea that a child should learn proper technique by experiencing pain or associating pain with improper technique is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Not only is such an idea unsafe, it is especially so for a child. Technique should be learned through positive reinforcement, and one should never assume that an individual will "figure it out on their own because they are tired of hurt hands" - that's what the instructor is there for, and that is the basis of instruction: demonstration and coaching of proper technique, as well as assisting students to avoid injury. Master Phil Stewart 4th Dan Tang Soo Do

Here's a couple of thoughts for you (I have been in Tang Soo Do since I was seven, and also worked as a professional musician): The thing about the "heavy" bag, and the Century Wavemaster or similar models are not that heavy, is to develop power. The scrape on her foot should have been noticed, and smaller equipmet should probably be provided - but there is a huge difference between those watercore bags and solid objects, or conditioning posts. Even at such an early age, she should have no bone or joint trouble from hitting it. Kicks' comments about practicing slow punches, etc. at home are a wonderful idea. In defense of the instructor, it is not as glaring a mistake to have your thumb improperly held when striking something as it is in the air. I'm not saying he shouldn't have noticed it, but I can understand how he did not. If you are really concerned about her hands, Century also makes some decent bag gloves - but get the ones with separate fingers, thumb, and a palm bar. It will help with fist formation, and prevent wrist injury when striking a bag (or individual!). Your daughter is probably fine, but it is good that you have these concerns. Speak with the instructor about her size and kick height as it relates to the (relatively) large base on that bag, and help her with her punches. Coincidentally, most martial arts increase manual dexterity and coordination, and thus will indirectly aid her in playing the piano (my wife has noticed that piano comes easier to her since I've started teaching her TSD). In Christ, Master Phil Stewart 4th Dan Tang Soo Do

So what's the word on the file?

Well, in the comic books Snake Eyes was definitely better (deliberately allowing Stormshadow to succeed in the "testing" with the candle and sword cutting thingie)...and Stormshadow doesn't have as much focus. Also, when Snake Eyes goes berserk (like when something happens to his girl...) he's unstoppable!

well, from the link you posted: "After rise of the Olympic sport style of Taekwondo, there were a lot of complaints about the "slow speed" of the round kick and toe injuries from kicking training bags with the ball of the foot, so a different type of round kick was developed. A knee whip motion with an impact that pushes beyond the targett was developed, This was further aided by the in-stepping and kicking at 45 degree angle. This 45 degree round kick was used in the traditional Taekwondo, as in the Choong Moo pattern, but was not used much in sparring. " I would guess the originator of the Choong Moo pattern may have had something to do with it - as the kick was developed, but also included in the pattern. Chances are, that is who is responsible for much of its incorporation. Just a guess, though. None of the three kicks described in that link sounds like what I do either - so I guess there are more ways to throw it than I thought!

There are a few minor problems with that argument. Firstly, Kwon Bup is "fist method". Just as we presently use the term "martial arts", "Kwon Bup" may refer to any empty-handed fighting style. The Kwon Bup section of the MYDBTJ is not everything that Kwon Bup is any more than an article cataloging the techniques of TKD is everything that every Korean martial art is. Secondly, the fact that GM Hwang added the forms from Shotokan, from a book means nothing other than the fact that those particular forms are based on Shotokan. Note that I say based on, not taken from. The fundamental movement and executions of the technique are different - you get the same final movements, but we get to that point rather differently that Shotokan practitioners do, as Master Powelette mentioned earlier. The addition of forms interpereted from the MYDBTJ later was simply expedient - we now have forms that are Korean in nature, not simply in execution. And thirdly, in Korea especially, reputation plays an extremely large role in estimation of skill - far more so than documentation during the time discussed. A friend of mine (Minor explanation - I go to Bible college, so no it is not unusual for someone this old to be going to school with me. We were friends before I knew of martial arts expereince he had, he never made it past 1st Dan from military training, and I only recently discovered his connection to MDK TSD) that I go to school with, trained IN THE RAILROAD DOJANG, IN SEOUL, until he could no longer afford formal training. He made this comment regarding training in martial arts in Korea as a boy (paraphrased): "We had nothing else. Nothing to do. I trained in the Moo Duk Kwan until my family could not afford it, I could not afford it. Then my friends showed me what they learned. I knew they were good - we all knew who was good and who was not. All we did for fun was fight. We would go out into the street, and see who was better. It was always important, to know who was better. It mattered between us, and if you were better you had a chance. If you were good, everyone knew it. If you were always good, you always proved it. Once enough people knew, and you could prove it against everybody, then you had a future. Paople would come up to you, and say "you are good. I will pay you to make me good." And we had nothing else. Many of my classmates died, trying to take apart unexploded bombs for the money the scrap metal would bring...(he went into a long digression on bombs here)...So if everyone knew you were good, and respected you, you could teach, and make money. So being good helped you not starve." So, ability and reputation had much to do with being considered an "expert", or simply good enough to teach. It evidently didn't take much to prove oneself, and once proven, one was considered "good". I would also like to disagree that TSD looks anything like Karate. Just because the MYDBTJ material was not incorporated until later does not mean that it was the sole source of Korean technique, either. The great find of the MYDBTJ was not in that it provided new technique, or execution, but enabled GM Hwang to interperet Hyung. It validated the forms practice, as there was none until the borrowed Shotokan forms. Almost as if saying "see, this principle is here, and now we have Korean forms to practice. So it's ok that we have been doing Shotokan forms in a Korean manner, because there is a precendent for form work, not just free exercise." Hope that helps clear some things up! In Christ, Phil

My guess would be his training in China - Have you ever studied with a person who trains in another art? Especially CMA - you will find that when you are talking about technique, someone else is always "oh, that's a such and such" or "oh, those techniques are such-and-such an animal". Familiarity with which tecqhniques are associated with which animal would lead to a (very) educated guess. And too, TSD has diverged so much within itself - I recently studied with an Okinawan Shuri-Ryu practitioner, who does many of the same forms, who commented that mine were so different and looked Chinese to him. Strange, huh?

Congratulations! Welcome to the wonderful world of being a yudanja. Wear it well. -Master Phil Stewart

Here's an interesting racism question for you all: Part one: You move to a new town, and there are two dojangs (or dojos, or whatever) that teach your primary art there, both charging the same amount. You visit both, and the classes are very very similar, and the instructors are identically ranked. One instructor is of the ethnicity from which your art originated (example: Korean instructor for TKD). Does that influence your decision at all? Be honest. Part two: You have decided to start a new martial art, one founded relatively recently, let's say in 1975. You have two choices, both of which intrigue you. The founders both had roughly equivalent experience in MA before starting their own style. One is Oriental, and one is not. In your "research" of these two new arts, does founding by a non-Oriental raise a red flag? Will it influence your decision between the two if all other things are as equal as can be expected? Again, you have to be honest with yourself. Just a little food for thought.