KempoTiger

Now I'm sure I'm missing quite a few factors here, but my point is, how can we truly debate which "styles" are better than others, when as you can see technique derived from a style of fighting is hardly a fraction of what goes into winning a fight.

For those of you that are intent on seeking out the elusive "best" style, or most "effective" style or whatever you may call it....some things to keep in mind in regards to a fight. ~~Factors of a fight~~ Motivation: Do you want to, or does your opponent want to kill you? Is this a competition fight with rules? If there is rules, is crippling or blinding someone allowed? Have you been in a fight, and if so are you frightened? Mot. List: - Defending of pride/ego vs Life and Death - Rules - Adrenaline - Intimidation Outside factors: Does he or you have friends around? Are there objects around that can be injected into the fight? Does he have a weapon? What are you fighting on? Is it wet or slippery? Is he on any illicit drugs? O/F List: - Terrain - Multiple opponents and/or allies causing chaos - Weapons - Self induced states of numbness and rage Ability: How big are you in relation to your opponent? Is he stronger than you? Does he have reach on you? How good is your technique in whatever way you fight in comparison to him? Ability List: - Weight - Strength - Reach - Speed - Technique

Very true. I do not know the extent of what Pesare did, but I do know that Cerio for reasons not seemingly documented online, left to train and gain rank with Chow and thus called our school "Kempo" schools. When I first began training I noticed alot of TKD influence due to some high kicks on some beginner moves, but since then we have either eliminated them, or kept them in training to build leg strength but teach to strike to the knee in actual application. As far as the forms go, yes most of the beginner ones are standard Shotokan type katas that we use to build habits in using ones core to strike with rather than arm strength. As you gain in rank though, the forms become more complicated and Kung Fu based, although even those I believe are altered for efficiency in building certain good habits rather than sticking to traditional ways. As far as similarities between Kajukenbo and East Coast Kempo material, like I said, yes they are different, but the concepts and theories are very similar in regards on how to off balance, gain control, strike and flow.

Ahh....the timeless argument. Well my thoughts on this are based soley on the laws of logic and biology. If one were to tell me that they could strike me with a palm strike, and that their chi would stop my heart, then I'd shrug them off. If one were to tell me that placing a strike to both sides of the heart, causing a shock to the nervous system and thus stop the heart, then I'd be more willing to listen, and learn about the science behind it. On a side note as Shogeri said, there is a big difference between pain compliance (which most people use pressure points for) and using them as legitimate fighting tools such as in Chin-Na, and most non-competition style MMA schools. and Shogeri I don't know about the death strikes though. Do they include neck/temple/heart strikes? Or do you intend to somehow hit me in the ribs or arms and kill me?

I'm short on details, as is usual when it comes to hot button topics such as schools splitting and the like. Karazenpo go Shinjutsu translates in "lightining hands" or something like that. But it's really just the Kajukenbo system with Gascon and Godin adding to it with their own personal flavors in regards to their own past martial arts training in other systems. From what I've seen yes they are. My Master currently has been formally accepted onto the Kajukenbo tree as per the decision of Sijo himself. As I said, although we may teach different variants of techniques, the general premise is still there. Be quick, efficient, devastating, and always always use what works for you. The striking points are the same, and the theories presented are nearly identical. From the Kajukenbo seminars I've personally attended, I'd have to comment that you guys (at least the guys I met from California) execute techniques in a much harder fashion. Professor Powell seems to have quite a liking for flowing with hammer strikes, and driving kicks through the groin when his opponent is off balance. In my school where I teach, we focus alot more on intercepting strikes rather than crushing them. But hey, to each his own, and if the Kajukenbo schools are any reflection of our schools (or vice versa) then I'm sure that image would change due to whomevers teaching at any given dojo.

Cerio trained under a man by the name of George Pesare who trained in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu under Sonny Gascon. Karazenpo was Kajukenbo, only Gascon and his brother-in-law Walter Godin couldn't use the Kajukenbo name due to politics. Cerio then left to train under Chow who was then teaching his own variant of Kempo which differed from Mitose's original Kempo Jujutsu. Cerio's system combining the knowledge of Chow's Kempo and Gascon's Kajukenbo led to the offshoots of both Villari's schools and my Master's. Keep in mind that Chow continued to strictly teach his form of Kempo while the BBS focused on refining the Kajukenbo system. Just because Kajukenbo has Kempo in it doesn't make it Kempo. Cerio went to learn from the "original" teacher to further himself. While I'm ranting, on a personal note, despite all this I can honestly say that none of it means anything. I've grown to not care about lineage or anything such as that because quite honestly it's meaningless. Shaolin Kempo....Kajukenbo....Kara-Ho Kempo...Kenpo. What you learn in these systems is meaningless compared to what your instructor has to teach you as an individual. The only real differences between the systems themselves is just erroneous movements, and nitpicking various stances in kata's and drills. But in the end they all have the same intended purpose.

Use sand. I have one filled with water and some sand at my dojo and I blast that thing off it's base (with a subsequent mess on the mats....). When we got the other one we filled it up with sand, and that ones like a rock.

As was said above, he's a proven fraud. His knockouts unexplainably seem to only work on his own students. Whenever he tries it on a skeptic and it doesn't work, he makes excuses for himself such as "well your tongue was on the roof of your mouth" or "your big toe was pointed up and it disrupted your chi flow." To that I say...how useful of a skill is it then, that projected lifeforce energy is somehow nullified by shifting ones weight or licking their lips? As far as his pressure point techniques, I haven't seen them, but I have quite an extensive knowledge of pressure point fighting so I doubt he has anything new to show me, and if it's any inclination towards his "other" talents, I doubt he shows these techniques in a useful realistic fashion. All to often I find guys who apparently know "pressure points" and then go into a series of techniques - with THEIR student punching in and going along with it - and essentially walk around flopping the uke back and forth like a rag doll by merely pressing into their neck. Or they grab a slow moving punch and then go right into a wrist lock of some sort while pressing the "meridians" along the forearm and bicep. I'm not saying these points don't exist, or that they're not useful, but the way these self proclaimed pressure point fighters execute them is nothing short of laughable.

No. Cerio's Kenpo was derived from a combination of Kajukenbo and Chow's Chinese Kempo.

sorry to hear that....... He passed away 7 years ago...don't worry, most of us have dealt with the loss our own way by now.

bingo

One of his students did go for the Randi prize.....and failed miserably. Couldn't even budge one person. And from what I hear that test is really professionally done. All different kinds of people, women, men, believers, skeptics, double blind tests. Apparently Dillmans student didn't even get passed the preliminary test.

You had never heard of Cerio till you started posting here??? Amazing. Cerio was Villari's Sensei, until Villari left him to start his own system.

Just like my school

I don't believe so. Perhaps a black belt from one school may have more worth than another, but when there's schools out there that will test students regardless of their ability then I'd say no.

Basic Flyer...... School name in large text with school logo/patch alongside or water-marked behind it. Briefly describe, perhaps bulletted the benefits of training. Include special "this month only" type deal, and have phone number, location and website listed prominently. Nothing more, nothing less.

we don't claim it to be, really. Perhaps you don't, but trust me for every soft trained traditional martial artist that thinks he's Li Mu Bai, there's a loudmouth cocky MMA guy (or even worse, untrained UFC fans!) that seem to think that training for the ring is the best way to learn to fight and defend yourself in any given situation. I can say the same for TMA - perfect example is the one I know who says "Boxers have no skill - they just stand there and slug eachother." I love those guys. Last guy to say it to me was a friend of a friend black belt in TKD. I nodded, smiled and then punched him in the stomach. After he got up I told him it seemed to work well for me. (we WERE in a dojo at the time with the intent of training....I don't go just hitting people.....usually ) the reverse happened to a friend of mine. He wrestled in high school and started training in longfist after he graduated. He got into a barfight and was unable to block or evade the guys punches using his longfist. He finally just double legged the guy, mounted him and started ground and pounding him. At least he won But the points still stand. People who train one way or the other aren't prepared for anything in reality unless they dare break away from convention (whether it be ring fighting or traditional kata) and learn to defend themselves quickly, readily, and efficiently. In comment to your wrestler friend, he's lucky the other guy wasn't there with a few friends, because mounting in a bar setting is quite possibly one of the worst things you can do. of course it does. Why wouldn't it? I respect your opinions, and to be honest my post wasn't directed really at you but rather to the general group of mixed martial artists. I was just kind of venting because of alot of the guys I encounter here (here as in real life locally) that think that training in anything but BJJ and Muay Thai is a waste of time. I'm also sick and tired of the "oh, so you don't think it'll work? Then come take me out. Show me what works" in an overly sarcastic tone. I never said I could beat them in fight (especially one where we aren't trying to break/kill each other). Although I am considering fighting them, and just start pulling every illegal move I can think of and see how far they get. Let him mount me and give'm a good ol groin grab to say hello.

I don't agree with William's assertion that the UFC favors one type of fighter over the other, but I think he's dead on in reference to it not exemplifying accurately the "best martial artists" or anything overly useful in the street. Now if one of these fighters ALSO trained in not a traditional martial arts style, but at least a bear minimum of basic proven and tested self defense techniques as well as self defense theories, then I think honestly they'd be the most devastating people around. I know a few people who train for MMA type competitions, and they all seem to think that they are the best fighters to ever grace this earth, and pride themselves on how hard they train. However fairly recently one of them finally got his wish and got into a fight outside of a club, and proceeded to get into his fighting stance rather than just taking the guy out efficiently, he got into his boxing stance (because that's what works afterall right?) and he was immediately floored by the guy next to him. Although I don't personally train everyday for the ring, but I have enough common sense on how to efficiently take control of the first guy, and get myself into a safe position so I am not getting ambushed from behind, and work from there. I may not be the best ring fighter, but I do believe that what I know also qualifies as martial arts.

I heard a muted trumpet in the background when I read that.....sorry the corny cliche'dness of that comment seems too much for me to bear

BLASPHEMY!

Four count pushups/Four count leg lifts Buddy pushups, buddy crunches, buddy leglifts, buddy wall stretching, buddy medicine ball passing squats cumulative laps around the dojo executing techniques in between sets suicide runs mutiple partner bagwork....

funny thing Kajukenbopr is that your last post on this thread, pretty much sums up the way we teach our Kempo system. Keep an open mind, find what works for you, and go from there. I remember my friends Sensei teaching him the typical dogma of "it doesn't matter how big the other guy is, size doesn't matter in karate", but in my school we embrace our different strengths and weaknesses and work to maximize the former and minimize the latter.

gotcha

So did I