TSDMGK_K40

My original dan belt, purchased from Eosin Panther in 1992, lasted me from 1992 until 2001 when I tested for kodanja, at which point I passed it on to a new third dan in my school who has worn it since, and he's now coming up for kodanja, so we are looking for a new recipient for this belt. There you have it, a 2 inch wide midnight blue belt, with one line of korean embriodery on each side, purchased for $55 in 1992 is still going strong. BTW, when I was promoted to 4th dan in Feb 2001, I purchased a new midnight blue belt (with a red stripe through the center) which I can only hope will be as long lasting and durable as that original belt I purchased almost 14 years ago.

Eosin Panther has long been regarded as one of the finest belt-makers around. Their multi-language embroidery is also top notch. http://www.eosinpanther.com/

Part of being a 'master' is knowing when not to put your foot in your mouth. Recognizing that fact, I chose to comment on only the things which I could talk about intelligently, namely that in my experience I noticed that progression from 10th Gup to Cho Dan happens faster in most TKD than TSD, and that most of the TKD I've been exposed to has much less emphasis on hand techniques than TSD. Now seeing as though I am fully intent to not make any statements without considerable knowledge I will say this, I have 23+ years of TSD experience, and ZERO days of TKD experience. Everything I state is based on the TKD that I've seen and the TKD practitioners that I know. I believe it to be true that TSD predates TKD, but I don't bother arguing that because there are certain TKD practitioners that adamantly dispute this at all costs (see Glen at tkd digest), so yes I agree with you, but I won't bother arguing with anyone who disputes this. Most of the original TSD system is based on the traditional Japanese/Okinawan hyungs, Pyung Ahn (Heian), Passia (Pal Chi), Kong Son Kun (Kyonkyo) and the traditional basic techniques of Shotokan. There is more of an emphasis on the push-pull hip motion in TSD than Shotokan, that is the most noticable difference regarding the basic techniques. This foundation built on Japanese/Okinawan techniques is no suprise, seeing as the South Korea was occupied by the Japanese until the early 1940's. In the years since TSD was founded, the late KJN Hwang Kee introduced more matierial with a decidedly Chinese flavor, namely the Chil Sung, Yuk Rho, Hwa Sun Hyungs. Now I know the Moo Duk Kwan company line is that these are Korean Hyungs, based on the new Soo Bahk Do emphasis. That is all well and good, but any experienced practitioner can easily see the chinese influence on these new SBD hyungs.

The progression to Cho Dan is at a different pace in Tang Soo Do. Most TSD students take 4 to 5 years to reach Cho Dan, while most TKD schools that I know of promote at a much faster rate. Most of our students are red belts (3rd to 1st gup) for almost 2 years before they reach Dan level, so I think by the time they get to dan level they are very prepared for it. I am a Tang Soo Do 'master'. I don't particularly like that term, but it is what it is. I prefer Sa Bom, it seems more appropriate. I'm 31 years old, and just a little over a year from testing for 5th dan. The term 'master' always seems so out of place. Maybe when I'm like 45 it might feel more natural... Anyway, I don't particularly like TKD. But on the same token, I don't hate it either. In my area all of the TKD is Olympic style, and it really disgusts me that there are 2nd and 3rd dans in TKD that I really believe would have little to no chance of being able to defend themselves in real life. Between their non-existant use of their hands, to their reliance on the hogul (Sp?? chest protector) it is very discouraging. I don't like to generalize, but that is all there is in my area. I'm sure it's not like that with all TKD, but I just prefer a more traditional style, with enough balance between real self defense, traditional training, and then some point sparring type of contests. BTW, I've never heard anything good about GM J.J. Kim, and I've been in TSD for 23 years now, so don't take it personally.

Are you kidding me? That is probably the grossest over-exageration that I have ever heard. While it may be true that TKD has more of an emphasis on kicking, there is no way you can say that TSD is mostly punches. We do more that our fair share of kicking in TSD.

I just felt I had to interject here. I don't practice TKD, but I do practice TSD. If your instructor really is a "master instructor" as you said he is, then most likely he'll continue to hit you with that back kick /spin hook or whatever he throws, whenever he wants. By deductive reasoning, if he's your instructor then he is most likely better than you. I'd say the best you can hope for is to avoid getting hit with his back kick a certain percentage of the time.

Thats why I think it is a good idea to always research something like this on your own, to the best of your ability, before you blindly pass along info that might not be correct. It can happen to all of us. Even though I've been practicing TSD since 1981 there are still things that have been told to me, that I can't verify, and even some things that have been told to me which I eventually verified were not entirely accurate. That is part of the 'old' culture of Korean M.A., where people expect you take your seniors word for something without any verification. Just think, before the internet became popular, it took years sometimes to debunk or verify some of these statements, if at all.

Just because you say that Kendo is a branch of Hai Dong Gum Do, I'm still not inclined to beleive it without some concrete proof. I may not have much knowledge of HDGD, but I do have 20+ years of TSD experience, and of course have seen similar claims, also without proof.

Not saying I'm an expert or anything, but that doesn't sound the least bit accurate to me. Some proof might make that statement somewhat more believable.

from my experience, the pronunciation of TANG is actually more like 'daang' I think the 'tongue' pronunciation of TANG is more of an Americanization. A good place to as for more info is the warrior-scholar discussion board http://www.warrior-scholar.com/wforum/ It is a Tang Soo Do specific board, and there are several native and fluent Korean speakers that post there regularly.

In my style, Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan, we have exposure to different weapons at the various dan levels. I am currently a 4th dan, so I've had an opportunity to take part in most of the standardized weapons training offered directly in our system. We also have access to the full Hai Dong Gum Do system if we so chose. At Cho Dan, we practice dando (short dagger) hyung and self defense. At Ee Dan we practice bong (long staff) hyung, and short staff self defense At Sam Dan we practice Hai Dong Gum Do hyung At Sa Dan we practice Chinese Broad Sword hyung At O Dan we practice Chinese Spear hyung At Yuk Dan we practice Tai Chi Sword

We do some Haidong Gumdo at our school. Our school is a Tang Soo Do school. I know some of the material at around the 6th gup level. (Ssang soo gum bup yuk bon, and Ssang soo gum bup chil bon) I'll be officially starting as a 10th gup soon. That should be interesting.

I too am a 4th dan in TSD. I will begin training in Hai Dong Gum Do this fall, and will be starting as a 10th gup. I don't expect anything, no advanced accelaration, etc... Whatever happens, happens.

I never felt like you were trying to diminish anything, my system is what I know best, so that is what I use as a point of reference. Well, I might have started 4 years earlier than you, but I didn't train at all during high school, and earned my cho dan in 1992, so you've probably been a dan longer than I have.

check your math. it takes 11.5 years, and I think that's too quick, but that's the system we're involved in. It breaks down like this: 2.5 years to 1st dan wait 2 yeas test for 2nd dan. Running Total = 4.5 yrs wait 3 years to test for 3rd dan. Running Total = 7.5 yrs wait 4 years to test for 4th dan. Running total = 11.5 yrs wait 5 years to test for 5th dan (Master). Running total = 16.5 yrs. And that's only if you pass every test (each black belt advancement consist of 4 different test held 2 months apart), get your class hours in, get your teaching time in, and show you possess the tenents of TKD. This is actually longer than Kukkiwon requirements for Dan promotions. We have been actively involved in TKD since Jan 1993 and were just promoted to 4th dan in June 2004 (11.5 yrs), usually attending 3 - 4 classes a week (5 during test periods) and never skipping or failing a test. can I lay this to rest now? No need to get defensive, I'm not knocking it. I do what my style dictates, you do what your dictates... In my math, 1993 starting at white belt to 2003 (the link you posted) testing for 4th dan is 10 years, but obviously I missed something somewhere.

Well, I'm not trying to be a jerk here or anything, but I've heard other style talk about 5th dan being a master, not 4th dan. To each their own. My comment to you is, in my style of Tang Soo Do, it takes a minimum of 13 years from 10th gup to 4th dan. That would be a minimum of 18 years from 10th gup to 5th dan. Just as a side note, in my style of Tang Soo Do, 6th dan (minimum of 24 years) is considered to be a senior master, or senior Kodanja. Now in your style, it looks as though you can go from 10th gup to 4th dan in around 9 years (if my math is correct), so that probably puts your TKD 5th dan at about the minimum 13 year mark if I am correct. Starting to see where I am going?

Last time I checked, this is the Korean Martial arts forum, and there is a lot more to Korean Martial Arts than just TKD. Time to take the blinders off.

You are part of World Tang Soo Do, right? I don't think I've ever met a World TSD dan with 4 stripes on their dan belt. And I am from the northeast, so I see many dans/masters from other orgs. I also understand fully what the red stripe in the center of the belt means, as the midnight blue belt that I wear has that little red stipe through the center. I can't agree with you about the 'dedication and sacrifice' issue. I don't own a studio, or have 25 students, yet I feel that I am no less a 'master' of my style. I've been in my system since 1981, I attend numerous association (https://www.TSDMGK.com) events each year, train with my instructor on a weekly basis, teach for him whenever needed, sit on dan test shim sa boards several times a year, ran a full time studio before I graduated college, attend our 5 day Kodanja shim sa each year, etc... Just my opinion.

When I used to teach full time, I used to do this. I would make them earn their white belt. It usually took them around 3 classes. I would basically just see what they're ability to learn and retain was, once they learned a few basics, and couple stances, and the first quarter of the first basic form, then I would promote them to 10th gup white. I wanted them to understand that they always had to earn everything, and not to expect any handouts.

In the same style that is fine. But if you were to say try to switch from TKD to TSD, then that argument wouldn't really hold.

Just curious, what is the difference between 4th dan master rank, and 4th dan instructor. We don't have that. When you test for 4th dan, if your instructor approves you can also test for Sa Bom. Also, I don't agree with not letting people progress beyond 4th dan if they don't own a studio. I know many people that are excellent kodanja members that don't own studios. In fact, in my dojang there are around 12 kodanja members, myself included, that are just students.

just my $0.02 on the 16yr old 4th dan "issue" It is widely known/accepted that rank progression is faster in TKD than it is in Tang Soo Do, but I'll still compare the two. I earned my first dan in Spring 1992. Testing for my next three ranks at the minimum time requirements each time, I earned my 4th dan in Spring 2001 ( at the age of almost 28 ). I'll be first eligible (minimum time requirements) for 5th dan in Spring 2006. IMO, 10 years from 10th gup to 4th dan seems a bit quick, but if thats what your style does, so be it. I don't really have a problem with a 16 year old 4th dan, but I wouldn't encourage it either. I know 3 of my 'peers' in my style that earned their 4th dans at 18 (or 19). They are all exceptional martial artists and deserve to be 4th dans just as much as I do.

In my school, (tang soo do) if someone wants to transfer in, then we evaluate where they belong, and thats where they start from. If someone comes in with a black belt (1st dan) and they aren't up to par with our standards, then they'll start at a lower rank, usually somewhere between 3rd gup and 1st gup. Then they'll have to earn their Cho Dan just like the rest of the students. Even when people have come in at 2nd/3rd dan, if they weren't up to our standards for that rank, then they had to earn it again, some starting at 1st dan, and testing for the successive ranks as they learned the system, others wearing their previous rank until they were prepared to cross rank, at which time they would attend our regular dan testing and cross rank. No one should be entitled to just step in and expect a rank. I'm a 4th dan in Tang Soo Do, just over a year away from testing for 5th dan, and I can tell you that I wouldn't expect any other system to just accept me at that rank without question.

As a Korean Style Tang Soo Do does it's fair share of kicking. I wouldn't say it is all legs though. In the style/organization I practice, Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan, I would say it's a pretty even mix, but the majority of the Ill Soo Sik and Ho Sin Sul are hands oriented. IMO, there is much more of an emphasis on hand techniques in TSD than there is in TKD. This is a general statement, and obviously doesn't pertain to all TSD or TKD schools, but I think it is fair to apply that to the majority of them.

Try to understand the kihap for what it is. A 'spirit shout', a sharp forceful exhalation. While movie kihaps (Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, etc...) sound 'cool', there is really no emphasis gained (maybe intimidation, but who knows) I know of an excercise that will help you develop your kihap. We do this at the end of our dan classes. At the end of class, line up in one straight line, from senior to junior. Starting from the junior member work your way down to the senior member. Stop in front of each one of your seniors, and assume a horse stance. They will execute a technique (reverse punch) at your abdomen (not the solar-plexus please!!). If you kihap properly when receiving each strike, you'll know its working, because it shouldn't really hurt. If you're not kihapping properly, then your abdomen won't feel so great.