I don't think that anyone can honestly say that the moves and techniques collected in katas can't teach you anything new and useful. One can only choose either to dig in, study the kata and learn how to use the techniques or take the easier route, buy himself a punch bag, sweat tons of sweat, be able to throw one helluwa punch and call himself a "martial artist". No disrespect meant here, but there is a bit more to the martial arts than just plain punching, kicking and building muscle mass. If thats your game, fine. Just don't call it martial arts. In the west, karate is a sport. In the east it's an art. Two different mentalities, different cultures, different sets of mind. If you train karate for self defence purpuses or just to be able to fight - then you probably want the results fast. You want to have the feeling that you're able to protect yourself. You won't see anyone sitting and watching classes for a year, before actually starting to learn. You also won't see anyone voluntarily learning a kata solely for that purpuse. Maybe cause learning a kata and mastering it is quite a project to take on. A project that takes a lot of patience and time. Perhaps the question that should be asked is - why people learn karate in the western and why in the eastern countries. What kind of attitude do they have towards karate and what kind of expectations. To get back to kumite vs. kata topic I agree with those who say that one cannot go without the other. Katas are encyclopedias of kumite... You just have to take time and study them. And on the side note: I've noticed that in most cases people that are good in kumite suck in katas. And vice versa. There are of course execeptions. There's a guy in our club, the one you go to when you have questions about katas. He'll beat the living crap out of you in such an elegant, fast and skillful way you won't even know what hit you. Guess where his knowledge comes from?