benkendrick

Why Thank you sir... You talking to me? Seriously though, I find it hard to believe that instead of addressing the content of my argument you choose to attack my character and dedication. However, never one to back down from a good friendly scrap (verbal or otherwise) I'll address your points.... First point, if you mean "Do I practice ALL of the forms & techniques I've been taught in the systems I listed EVERY time I step into the dojo." Then the answer would be no, I don't. I wish I could but there are only so many hours in the day. However, when I do go into the dojo I do give 100% to what I'm being taught (IF I'm being instructed by my Sensei). In the case of my solo training (heaven forbid a Shodan working out by himself...) I do work on the material I've learned from other arts. In fact I'm in the process of compiling all my notes from those early days of training and cataloging the kata & techniques for my own reference... Second point, Frankly I could care less what your impression of my approach to martial arts training is. It (i.e my training) is what it is, and it's mine BTW. I don't claim to be some know-it-all Great Grand Master Budo Wanna-be. (though I may come off that way at times ) I come to these boards to learn more about, cuss & discuss one of my favorite topics (martial arts in all it's many flavors) with other positive folks who may have sources of "budo" (mudo for you you korean folks ) knowledge that I might not otherwise have access to. In a similar vein I offer up the knowledge I have from my experiences walking the warrior's path... That being said I'll move on to your next point: I've read & re-read the thread and I don't see anywhere, where I said or insuated that TKD was any worse than any other style as far as the problems mentioned. Heck, I love TKD. In fact I've got a black belt in it. And a lot of what I taught my private students was based in the TKD I've learned. I think I've beat this horse a time or two. But let me elaborate on my point of view a bit more here. you said, "If you are under 4th Dan, you are considered an assistant, responsible to your instructor. WTF and ITF will tell you the same thing." --- I don't doubt or dispute that at all. Why you may ask, because that's their standard, that's fine for them - more power too them. I do find it highly ridiculous (and insulting) that you seem to insist that anyone from any other MA organization or system must follow their (the WTF or ITF) standard to be considered legitimate, true training. BTW - Quick history lesson, after WWII when TKD as we know it today was being put together, how many of the Kwan founders had rankings of 4th dan or higher in the JAPANESE, CHINESE & OKINAWAN arts that they had studied and used to formulate what has become Modern TKD. I don't have the exact statistics but I'd venture to guess not too many. I believe Gen Choi was only a 1st or 2nd Dan in Shotokan. What was he thinking? Duh! that's a gimme... Naturally if your not around your instructor or involved in the parent organization you are NOT going to advance in rank. That is unless you're testing yourself.... (HEY, now theirs an idea... Maybe I can be a 4th dan after all) So If I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is that no matter how much time I put in at home sweatin my butt off working on my kihon, kata & kumite I'll never get any better - UNLESS it's in my Sensei's dojo. Well I guess I have been wasting all these years... I guess that means students in your organization aren't asked to or expected to work out at home (since working on your own with out Masters watchfull eye is so pointless)... So do I, it's part of the foundation in any true martial training. However, since God gave me a brain and my instructors have given me the knowledge, I think I can put 2&2 together. If not Sensei is just a phone call/email or dojo visit away. (presuming that Shodan means I've learned the basics and am ready for deeper study.) I already shot that horse earlier, so I won't bore the rest of the forum beating that one anymore. (Besides I'm not a Master so I shouldn't think for myself anyway...) This last point has me scratching my head... So let me ask you this, If i start training in an art and for one reason or another (usually due to relocation & assuming I haven't reached the magic dan level) I'm no longer able to train with my teacher or in that style - what am I supposed to do? It's funny you should say that, in fact I still have a very good relationship with every instructor I've ever been priviledged to train with. In fact I often go back and train with several of them when ever I happen to get the chance. To date, I've always been welcomed and treated like I'd never left...

Well, I can comment on them and TKD as well - since I have been fortunate enough to have trained with some of the best teachers in various Japanese/Okinawan & Korean systems. I would like to add to your comment though. Why is it that in many systems (mostly Korean systems From my experience) 4th Dan seems to be this majical rank when the light is finally supposed to click and one suddenly becomes this supreme martial being who is finally capable of spreading the correct and true art to the masses? So if I'm following what your saying here, if I'm not a Master rank 4th dan or above yet, and for what ever reason I'm not training with my teacher anymore (ie. he/I moved away, or died, etc.) when I practice my TKD (or any other system) it's no longer TRUE TKD? Well if that's true then it really says alot more about his teaching (or lack there of) than it does about my training... Again this is just my opinion - but this type of thinking is why I used to be so prejudiced against Korean martial arts. Fortunately though for me not all korean style instructors buy into this thinking... (maybe only the legitimate ones do ) AAHHHG here we PARTIALLY agree . For some folks that may mean exactly what you say. But for me it simply means I'm not worried about testing for rank. In fact I work out with my Seibukan Sensei quite regularly (I even have my own key to the Dojo). However, over the last seven years we've been training together he know's I'm just there because I love to learn. And I know when ever I want to collect another rank certificate all I have to do is let him know I'd like to test (If he thinks I'm ready then he'll test me). In fact to be honest, I don't hold a formal rank with the Seibukan. However I do know (and appreciate) much of the Seibukan syllabus... What's more important the fact that I've sewn on a Seibukan Patch and have a certificate hanging on my wall saying I'm such and such rank or the fact that I've taken the time to learn (as best I can) Wansu, Anaku, Seisan, Passai, Passai Guwa, Naihanchi, Chinto, Gojushiho, et al as Kyan Sensei taught them to Shimabukuro (Zenryo) Sensei down through our lineage to my sensei - who now shares them with me... Again I have to question what makes 4th dan this magic number? My Seibukan Sensei was a shodan when I first met him - he'd been one for about 10 years. He's now a 3rd dan. His Sensei was then a 5th dan now 6th (with over 30+ years training in Okinawa). Are you doubting the validity of their rank or ability to teach? You wouldn't if you were priveledged enough to train with them... I don't think anyone is saying rank is irrelevant. I guess I just come from the opposite end of the spectrum than you - because I find it interesting that you place so much emphasis on rank. Though he couldn't eat the grapes, I bet he still ate none the less... Who know's may be he was lucky enough to catch a rabbit...

As long as I feel like I'm learning something new I'm happy myself. Whether that's training by myself, training informally with friends from other systems or formally as a student in a school - it makes no difference to me. I know several people I used to train with at one point or another, most of which were junior to me, who are now 3rd, 4th & 5th dans. Does that mean they're any better than I am or I'm any better than they are? I think not, it just means we've gone down different paths... I suppose that by the modern way of thinking the higher ranked student is always better than the lower ranked one... Tell that to my yellow belt student who qualified all the way up through AAU NAtionals and then to Junior Olympics (Boy's 16-17 y/o Karate Division - I think) back in '91. At the Junior Olympic's he beat 3 black belts and a brown belt in Kumite. The main reason he didn't go further was that he got tired and lost his 5th fight to a brown belt. (I told him should quit smoking...)

took me ten years to the day (that I first set foot in a dojo)... Though I had formally trained in three different styles by that that time... (earning a 3rd kyu in an Okinawan system and 2nd Gup in MDK TSD prior to the Shodan in Sohng Ahm TKD) I haven't "tested" for nidan though I've been "eligible" to in 3 systems (MDK TSD, United Federation TSD and Sohng Ahm TKD) for various reasons. I guess I'm just a SLOW learner

It all depends on the TKD style (whether they use the hips or not). MOst say they do but few really emphasize it like Soo Bahk Do. BTW - Which school do you go to in New York. I met some pretty cool folks from a New York school (it was in Oswego I think) at Soo Bahk Do National's in Monticello many years ago. Also I'm pretty sure my old TSD Teacher trained with Master Shimerhorn (Sp?) for a while.

I don't necesarily disagree with you here. HOwever, I would counter by stating that IMO that problem is not that, "that was then this is now". The problem is that "we have grown accustomed to dan ranking, regardless of how authentic the person claiming it might be". To my way of thinking this is because we as a modern society tend to put far too much emphasis on the end goal of getting a black belt. So much so, that we often loose sight of the journey (or process) that one should go through in earning it. To me the process is more much more important. Everybody has different reasons for training. Personally, my purpose for training is not to see how many stripes I can cover my black belt with. My purpose for training is to better myself everytime I walk into the dojo. My purpose in teaching is to help my students become the best martial artists they can be. This may sound corny but it's just me... I don't see why one should have "to be prepared to explain WHY he has been in martial arts that long and only holds 3rd Dan". I personally don't feel the need to validate my rank for anyone. The rank I hold is mine, awarded to me by the instructors I was training with at that time and it's legitimate. If they want to see what I know - what my training is all about - they can step on the mat with me... (I don't mean that in an arrogant or offensive way either) This is exactly the problem with modern martial arts training IMO. Organizations today treat their training like it's some kind of commodity that can be bought with little more commitment than signing a contract to join the local "Masters club". And the public buys it, so after a while this thinking becomes the norm. I find it even more suspicious when I see some 2nd or 3rd dan whose been training for 5 years (especially when they aren't even old enough to drive). Or better yet how bout the local "grand master" whose still in his early 30's? And this is exactly the result of the mass marketing of modern martial arts. By this standard your local McDojo 4th Dan in Make-a-buck Ryu(whose probably between 16 and 20 years old and been training for 6 - 9 years) is considered more qualified to teach than someone whose quietly spent a quarter of a century dilligently working on their technique. As for me, I'd be perfectly happy spending the rest of my martial arts days sweating away at my makiwara perfecting my technique, and looking for more bunkai in my kata without ever earning another "stripe". If someone wants to join me on the mat - all the better, maybe we can learn something from one another....

My first gi was a size 3 medium weight back in '79.... Now with age and experience I feel the heavier the better. (I've had a few gi's that were so stiff they could stand up on their own and a couple that could probably do kata by themselves )... On a sadder note, the last gi I bought was a size 6... I've decided to put myself out to pasture if I have to go to a size seven...

The whole idea that one has to attain a certain "dan" level before they begin teaching, to me, is silly. If that were the case then none of us would have ever been able learn because prior to the early part of this century there were no "Dan" ranks in the martial arts, at least not as we know them today... It's my understanding that in the old days there were teachers and there were student's. If your teacher thought you were ready he'd give you permission to teach. Often times some folks would just start teaching on their own. In either case if you, as a teacher, had something worth learning it would reflect in your students. (IMO this is still true today) That being said, I've been involved in the arts for a little over 25 years. I've trained formally and informally in several systems over the years. To date, my highest formal ranking is 1st Dan. However I've been "teaching" since I was a senior Kyu grade (in the various schools I've belonged to) and have had several personal students train with me privately. Does this mean I'm any less qualifed to teach, simply because I haven't reached some magic number of dan grade. I think not - because the students I've trained stayed with me because they saw value in what I was teaching. And when I felt that I had taught them as much as I could, I encouraged them to seek out more training elsewhere so that they could grow... BTW - I've also heard it said that Miyagi Chojun (along with many okinawan sensei of the day) was disgusted when he heard that Funakoshi had adopted a version of Kano's ranking system. I've also been told he refused to give out "dan" grades as we know them. (Admittedly, I'm not a Goju guy - so I may be wrong here). The point is, does this invalidate the crdibility of everyone teaching Goju? Of course not...

Having studied both TSD (with both the Moo Duk Kwan and United TSD Federations) and TKD (Mostly Sohng Ahm Style (ATA) with some WTF & ITF exposure) I can say you hit the nail on the head... For the most part you can more readlily see the Okinawan influence in MDK TSD than in any of the other styles mentioned. However, GM Hwang Kee has introduced two sets of his own forms. The Chil Sung & Uk Ro series. To me the Chil Sung forms, though still very "Okinawan" have a slightly Chinese feel to them. I don't know much about the Uk Ro (sp?) hyungs as they were just coming out (i.e. being introduced) when I left the MDK. But as you said the bread and butter forms of MDK TSD are Okinawan: Pyong Ahn 1 thru 5 = Pinan 1 thru 5 Passai = Bassai Nai Hanchi 1 thru 3 = Nai Hanchi 1 thru 3 Chinto = Chinto Kong San Kun = Kusanku A quick funny story - I came to the MDK after studying Okinawan karate for about 6 years. One day when I was warming up with Seisan before class, I was approached by a senior dan in the school and asked "where i learned that form". When I told him I learned it as green belt I was asked (politely) not to do it in this dojang since that was a very senior form that they hadn't learned yet.

https://www.goldstarvideo.com This site should keep you pretty busy for a while...

Sound like a lot of "rules" for The way of noway....