ValeTudo

Well at least you're realistic! (I'd do the same thing) -- That's why Benn makes it a point to say that the good thing about knee-on-stomach is that you don't actually follow them to the ground. It is a position that provides a ton of mobility and the ability to run very quickly if need be. So we agree on your end-point (running is better). But I think you're confused on the positioning a little, because knee on stomach allows you to look up and examine potential threats, as well as to run if need be.

Oh, and I guess I saw the video of Emin Boztepe (Wing Tsun) vs. William Cheung (Wing Chun) fighting. Mainly just flailing around randomly on the ground. That wasn't a very impressive display of self-defense either...

No. I understand how you bait the one guy in. I'm not seeing how this prevents the other guy from attacking you once you've initiated here. You said alignment -- My question is, how are you aligning them in a straight row? It seems like they'd be idiots to try to attack one after the other in a straight row.

Maybe something is getting lost in the wording here... I don't see how baiting someone on your left side, means the other person wouldn't be in perfect position to attack/tackle you from the right side. Maybe you could go more in depth there? 'Cause it isn't making sense to me so far. Also, how would you take a person to the ground by just pushing on their head? What kind of take down are you talking about?

I assume the same thing that happens when you're standing and the other attacker clubs you over the head with a tire iron. You probably get knocked out and left at the mercy of the two guys....You really have no point.

How would you line them up like that? What method do you use? The BJJ article mentioned getting one guy in knee-on-stomach position in order to line them up correctly. What would you use? Your strategy (though I disagree with it) sounds interesting so far. I'm interested in how you line them up one behind the other... Particularly if there's more than 2??

Treebranch, How would San Soo deal with multiple attackers? (In a more effective way as you stated) -- What would the general strategy be?

That's a really flawed comparison. When I was growing up, I attended a TKD McDojo (not calling TKD McDojo.. Just saying my particular one was). When I first got there, I was beaten a lot. Then as we continued I started beating beginners. Of course, first time I got into a fight at school I got killed. Why? Because fighting there, and fighting for real were two different things. Everything changes the first time you get hit hard. That's why I like MMA. You get hit hard and for real, because the ultimate goal is to knock your opponent out or to make him/her quit. Not to score points. So saying that you beat WC beginners (as a WC advanced person) doesn't mean a thing when you're talking about self-defense. Remember, the beginners are merely trying to learn the techniques taught at the school. On the street you won't fight someone who is trying WC techniques, you'll fight someone who is trying to hurt you. So I'll stick with my original question. How does one know WC works, if they've never seen it work in a real, live fight? Maybe some have. But until someone gives me some proof, I remain doubtful. The only Wing Chun fight videos I've seen are: Wing Chun vs. Kyokushin (Wing Chun guy is knocked out) Asbel Cancio vs. Dave Beneteau (Wing Chun guy is TKOed) Dave Levicki vs. Johnny Rhodes (Wing Chun guy is TKOed) Scott Baker vs. Jason Delucia (Wing Chun guy is TKOed) Dave Levicki vs. Rickson Gracie (Wing Chun guy is submitted) Are there any others I can look at that might change my mind?

For those still interested... This site lists all of the fighters and their styles and records that have competed in the UFC. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/3595/ufcstats.html There are three Wing Chun folks that I see Scott Baker, 0-1 Asbel Cancio, 0-1 Dave Levicki, 0-1 Those are the only ones I see.

Well, we generally agree. If people want to train only to fight untrained fighters, more power to them. Like I said, I'm not in MMA for self-defense/beating up drunks purposes. I like to fight, so I do MMA. The only thing I'm confused on is how WC people know that WC is great for self-defense - if they've never seen it be effective. I know that in a one-on-one fight BJJ is largely effective because it's been tested. (See: Gracies In Action, UFC, Pride, etc..) This doesn't meant that it will always win out, but I'm playing the odds. WC I've never seen work, so I'm not sure how people can be sure that it does. Until someone can show me something...anything.. I'll remain respectfully doubtful. Is BJJ effective against multiple opponents/weapons? I don't know. Never seen it tried. Never seen WC tried either. But I don't really worry about those situations! I try my best to train my running ability!

It looks like we're arguing about 2 completely separate things here. I'm responding to WC Strayder's assertion that WC may not work in the ring, but it works in the streets. If you don't take WC for self-defense, then that's fine! I'm not bashing the art at all. I'm saying that arguing WC is effective in the streets, but not in the ring is a cop-out. There is nothing that WC teaches that would have changed the outcome of that particular fight. The WC practitioner was pretty much free to do whatever he wanted, but didn't. So it's silly to argue that on "the streets" the fight would have been different. I think that shows a blind faith in the system that is flawed. I'm merely asking why someone would assume that, although WC doesn't work in the ring, it works in the streets. As far as WC practitioners in the UFC. To be honest, I'm not certain. I know Asbel Cancio (the guy in this fight) was Wing Tsun. But, off the top of my head, I can't remember others. I'm not saying that WC is an ineffective and/or bad art. I'm saying that the argument that WC is ineffective in the ring, but effective on the streets is a bad argument.

I'm still looking on the net for a list of the rules. I doubt I'll find them since it's silly to keep a list with only 2 things on it... However, like I said before. You can read Brawl, or The Gracie Way (under the Rorion Gracie part). They'll explain the rules used in the first few UFCs.

I'm happy that you've never been faced with a ground situation. It's not fun to be there! I don't fear for my life anywhere I go. I'm not too worried about self defense. I like to fight, so I train MMA. However, if you do go to the ground..what then? Do you not prepare for it, simply because you haven't gone there? That's what confuses me about some. I don't have a blind faith in any art. That's why I cross-train. But I would never take anything for granted. I think this probably tells you a little more about how hard it is to hit the throat. Nonetheless, I have seen some excellent throat strikes. Look for Guy Mezger vs. Ricardo Arona in Pride 16. Mezger hits Arona with a great round kick to the throat. Did Arona die? No! Did he get stunned? For a little while. Arona wound up winning the split decision.

http://sfuk.tripod.com/events_02/ufc_ukpress.html Here is a press release that details the rules that Zuffa instituted. "No groin or throat strikes" was a Zuffa rule.

Fish hooking didn't become illegal until after UFC 6 (where Tank Abbott used them in the finals against Oleg Taktarov). The only original rules were no biting, no eye gouging. For a better explanation of the history of the rules read Brawl or the Gracie Way where it goes into more detail. Getting it from a wrestling website probably isn't the best way to go. Agreed, that you aren't likely to face a trained fighter on the streets. However, you are likely to go to the ground. IF (I emphasize if) this is an example of how WC does on the ground, I think you'd be in for a rude awakening on the "street."

If WC hasn't proven itself in the ring against one fighter in unarmed combat. Why would you assume that it would be effective against multiple opponents or weapons? It goes to figure that you'd want to figure out how to defeat one person before you try to beat three at a time.

Throat punching was never illegal in the old UFCs. Once again, there were only two rules - no biting, and no eye gouging. Throat punches didn't become illegal until Zuffa took over and made it a more mainstream sport.

I still have not heard a good response as to why WT/WC would be effective in the street, but not in the ring. At the time of this particular fight, the only rules were no biting, and no eye gouging. The WT practitioner could have used anything else. He didn't because he got slammed on his back and freaked out. EVEN IF eye gouging and biting were allowed, I fail to see how they could have been used in this fight. Can someone please explain WC Strayder's assertion that WC would be good in the street, (with no rules) but not in the ring?

Nah, I didn't get to go! I know a Krav Maga guy won his fight that night. Was that someone from your school?

TJS, I just started training at Cardella's for BJJ. I used to train Vale Tudo with some friends at UT before I graduated. I also train boxing at Bruce's KO Boxing. What about you? (I noticed you were from Austin)

Interesting article. I didn't see it anywhere else on the forum, so if it's a repeat I apologize. It's by Frank Benn, and MMA instructor here in Austin. I'd love to hear everyone's comments! ---------------------------------- A Multiple Opponent Scenario With BJJ -- Some Surprises for the Uninitiated I've heard a lot of things over the years about BJJ not being any good for multiple opponent situations, etc., and for the most part I agree. This goes back several years before the first UFC (1993) when everybody "else" finally heard about it and wanted to learn it. One thing you have to understand is this. In terms of handling multiple unarmed opponents, the BEST person to handle this is a good grappler who can box. Boxing alone is not as good, since multiple opponents tend to grab, crowd you, control, and hit. They don't all just stand at range and tee off. Secondly. I've trained in boxing, kickboxing, traditional Asian punching and kicking arts, Filipino martial arts, wrestling, and submission grappling for about two decades. The most advantageous position in all of fighting to have your opponent in (barring none) is the knee on chest position. It's the fish in a barrel position. If I were fighting two game opponents (guys that just don't go down from the first good punch), I'd want one of them on his back under my knee where I could REALLY hurt him. Yet, in this position I am standing, mind you. One person is completely incapacitated, where I can knock him out in about one second (equals 5 to 7 solid punches on the chin which WILL NOT miss because he can't move or defend). I would turn to where the other guy is in front of me, do in his friend, and the guy that's still standing can't get to me in time without stepping on his own friend. To go around, he uses up that precious second I just used to knock out his body, and now it's his turn. I'm already standing when in a high knee on chest, and I can stay low and take the other guy down, grab his kick if he tries that and take him down, or go right back to stand-up fighting, now mano a mano. This is a scenario I've practiced, taught, and applied for many years now, and anybody skilled in BJJ will have this going for him. It's one of the best ways to deal with two opponents -- i.e. where one of them is completely unable to hit you, and the other is not able to get to you in time. As I said before, the guy on his back is knocked out in a second or so, and you never went to the ground. Even an intermediate takedown artist can put a larger opponent on his back and kneel on his chest, post the other leg 45 degrees off the shoulder, and shoot the fish in the barrel. If the standing opponent is behind you, then you switch to the other side around the head (takes about 1/3 second), OR you abandon the position altogether and take your standing man out. You have about 2-3 seconds to do it before your knee-on-chest guy gets back to his feet -- an eternity compared to the amount of time you'd have if he had never been on his back. I generally chuckle to myself when I see some of the assumptions people make about arts they haven't trained in, but enough is truly enough. I'm considered a pretty fast heavyweight as a boxer, and even I'd prefer to put one of my two opponents on his back to knock him out. This comes from having had to deal with both opponents standing in the past, and knowing certain dynamics that make this difficult. Frank Benn Integrated Arts Austin, Texas P.S. And if you need to run away, knee on chest allows for this as well. Like I've said before, ground grappling does not necessarily mean YOU go to the ground -- only that HE does.

WC Strayder, What does Wing Chun teach that can't be used in the ring? And please don't say eye gouging and biting (which were the only illegal moves in this particular UFC). If that's what you're relying on, you're probably in for a rude awakening. What techniques do y'all learn that are too deadly/dangerous for the ring? Interested...