Shorin Ryuu

I think so. I've never used the standing bag though, I just have a 15 lb. bag of small steel shot that I use.

I recommend (as I have in another post) picking up a copy of the Okinawa Program. This book has a lot of good information, to include foods to eat, foods not to eat, and just general nutrition informaiton that will help you out if you want to know what to buy in the grocery store or order at a restaurant. For the more hardcore, they have a specific diet/meal plan with many options (you aren't eating the same thing every day), but I don't follow it myself.

Are you being sarcastic or serious...If you are being serious, then what you have just said absolutely makes no sense (a downside of online forums is that sometimes sarcasm is harder to detect)...

Audited some classes (killing time until my Master's Degree program starts), went to jujitsu class, practiced some Okinawan kobudo, practiced some iaido, read some of a book (The Two Koreas), baked some lasagna.

Just for fun, as I have thought about the belt system quite a bit from time to time. If you had the power, would you get rid of the belt system or would you just keep it the way it is. Or maybe, would you keep it but have less kyu (I don't know what other styles call them...but it just the colored belts) ranks? Feel free to explain any rationale you have. As for my answer, right now, I'd probably keep it just because it helps many to have some sort of external sign of their achievement. I'd also get rid of some of the kyu ranks though. Maybe just have three kyu ranks (white, green and brown) before black. The hardcore side of me wants to get rid of it completely and just go back to teacher-student and menkyou kaiden (basically, a certificate saying you are very good), but I think the belt system has as a whole, increased the spread of martial arts. Any other thoughts?

The Tokugawa era lasted from 1600-1868. Of course at the beginning and end of these periods, there was still quite a bit of violence, but for the vast majority of it, it was very peaceful. Ironically, the use of guns was one of the biggest deciding factors that helped the unification of Japan, but was later eschewed by the samurai class because it threatened their status as warriors. In fact, regimented volley fire tactics were used in Japan before their use in Europe... There were still many schools that taught deadly jutsu, but at the same time, there were many that were less "battle tested" so to speak. As I mentioned before, the role of the samurai switched from soldier to clerk in most cases. Especially towards the end of the Tokugawa era, the class of samurai wasn't even as rigid anymore. Bushi status could be sold and bought, and many took on side jobs (which wasn't permitted) to support themselves. This was the product of the system with which samurai were paid. They were paid in koku (a unit of measurement) of rice a year. During the long period of peace during the Tokugawa Era, the powers of merchants rose as the economy became much less Neo-Confucian and more market oriented. At the same time, rice was no longer the system of currency used for transactions and was then subject to market forces (usually its value just got lower and lower). Now you have a whole class of people who are just getting paid rice, as opposed to gold or silver. That was one of the biggest reasons for the Meiji Restoration (combined with the threat of foreign intervention with the opening of Japan by America). For those of you that watched Rurouni Kenshin, history is just a little different from the romanticized version... With the Meiji era that followed (victory having been won by technology, not the power of swords), there was a bigger push to end many jutsu schools and place the emphasis upon do. Obviously the abolition of samurai class in the Meiji era had something to do with this, combined with the introduction of modern technology in large amounts since the 1850s, and the simple lack of a need for battle-tested techniques. As a side note, I did some research on zen and the martial arts for a paper in college, and most of what I found showed that during the periods preceding the Tokugawa era, zen was used mainly as a tool to help the warrior cope with death and enhance his battle psyche. Later on, especially in more peaceful times, it evolved to be an even deeper part of the martial arts. Some books on this I'd recommend are Zen and the Way of the Sword by Winston King and Zen and Japanese Culture by Daisetz T. Suzuki. Daisetz Suzuki I believe is one of the earlier writers to the West about Zen and has written quite a few other books (some of which I've read).

I'll give that a try next chance I get, but it just goes against my natural tendencies. Of course, this might be one of those "it works for you and not me" and "mine works for me and not you" sort of things...

What styles do you all do? I just started doing Musou Shinden Ryu. Its interesting, as a lot of the dynamics seem quite different from all of my Okinawan weapons training.

I use an iron palm bag. I think there are some that you can suspend from the ceiling and connect to the floor, which will help you to do the techniques as if you were striking a body.

Karate as we know it actually was introduced around the 1905-ish time frame to Japan and into the elemetary school system. This came from Okinawa, not China and the people who did it were Okinawan masters. Granted, there have been some Chinese influences in the developments of other Japanese martial arts, I believe jujitsu and aikijutsu, but my research on that is a bit hazy. That doesn't mean that they were directly copied, just that there was some interaction, I believe. The art of karate is extremely new to Japan (relatively speaking). Actually, quite the contrary. During the Tokugawa era, it was quite peaceful. The most peace that Japan had had in quite a long time. The flourishing of schools in this time period came because simply, a lot of samurai did not have much to do. It was during the Tokugawa era that samurai skill decreased a little bit in my opinion, as they became more akin to clerks rather than seasoned warriors. Once the Tokugawa era was established, there really weren't too many battles, and certainly nowhere near the level as during the Sengoku Jidai (warring states period, including the reunification of Japan under Oda Nobunaga, Toyotoma Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu). During the Kamakura and the Muromachi eras for example, was when you had samurai that were constantly in the field and had to learn all sorts of arts, like Kenjutsu (the sword), Sojutsu (spear-like weapons), Naginatajutsu (naginata, obviously), Kyuujutsu (archery), grappling (including in the water), and the tying of subdued opponents (I forget its name). There are more, but you get the picture. Sorry, one of my majors for my bachelors degree in college was Foreign Area Studies with a Far East Asian concentration...I couldn't let that pass...

SevenStar, when I said push when pulled, pull when pushed, I said to step back, but to do so at an angle (almost more of a pivot and slide). It is continuing his force, but you are not going to be flattened. If he has you absolutely trapped, your weight transition will cause his hold to be changed. Even if he can still hold on, he will be forced to compensate for your movement which might allow you to escape or do other things. As for intercepting strikes by closing in and "jamming" the attack or otherwise removing its potency, I agree, as that is an Okinawan karate principle as well. Yes, when I referred to jujitsu trying to grab strikes, I was referring to japanese rather than bjj. As for a roundhouse kick...I don't use it (it is a rather new technique introduced into karate that I find does not suit full combat. Now a "roundhouse" with the knee or shin on the other hand, I find very effective...). In terms of the techniques I was referring to in regards to the sensitive areas, I did not imply pain compliance to be the goal, as you are correct, in a fight, pain can easily be overriden by adrenaline or simply having a high pain threshold. The techniques I am referring to (especially the thumb to the sensitive areas of the ribs, including the points of the floating ribs) are meant to unbalance or to temporarily cause the opponent to relax tension, draw back slightly, or shift in order to misdirect your force. If the opponent resists the pain, it is even more optimal because most people will naturally increase muscle tension combined with a push against it. At this point, a quick and complete relaxation of the technique will cause the opponent's momentum to shift to fill the gap where you are no longer providing pressure. As I mentioned, these aren't magic bullets, but are little tricks. This push against an opponent's force and a quick relaxation doesn't even have to be applied to a sensitive place. These are small energy changes that won't end up with him flying off you, but can allow you to get out of a hold. It also sets you up to reverse direction on the opponent. I've found that this works on bjj people that I have faced in the past as well. I might just be misunderstanding it, but that isn't exactly opposing that rule, is it? You aren't resisting that force, you are shifting yourself so that it doesn't go full against you. Even if you do some forward movement, it is more of a rotation along an axis that just happens to be forward at the moment. Moment referring in this case both to the time and the rotational "moment". Sorry, bad pun...But yes, that is a good technique. I am of the opinion that you can play the distance game, but a lot of times the grappler might beat you, so you should try to acquaint yourself with close distance. It'd be like saying don't worry about getting sliced by a sword because you have a shield. What happens if your shield is taken away?

One principle of jujitsu is to push when pulled and pull when pushed. If he tries to push you down, go back. I recommend going back at an angle. It is important to go back "with your hips" rather than jerking back with your upper body, which will just end up getting you rocked. Especially if he is a smaller guy, you will want to sink your energy (or center of gravity) because he will try to get leverage on you. As a karateka, I'm partial to doing a low kick to the inside of the knee, but that probably wouldn't be allowed, unless you make it more of a push that allows him to fall with it rather than a break... Of course, if you can neutralize his arms before he reaches you (change his direction or go soft and use up his "energy"), you would be in the position to get him in a great hold or manipulate his arms. Question, does his bearhug go over both your arms or under them? Um, for that matter, is he in front or in back...that might change the answer a bit...

Yakusoku kumite refers to pre-arranged sparring (yakusoku literally means promise). It can be sort of seen as a two-person kata (form). I.e., first person steps in and punches, the second person steps back and blocks. Then the second person punches forward, the first person sidesteps and kicks, etc. As I mentioned in the post above, I believe it can be a great asset to help timing and distance (I won't repeat the reasons).

Caliper, the water tank thing and for some reason, I can't remember the other one... 14% isn't exceptionally low. 7-10 percent is considered prime for athletes, I believe. Many of my friends back in college fit in this category and they weren't especially cut, but they were in shape. Where did that stat for Bruce Lee come from? 8% sounds high... But yes, I did have the tests done at the Human Performance Laboratory (either in New Orleans or Baton Rouge...we were there for an indoor track meet in high school and we stopped by there since it was a famous professional athlete training place). I also had tests done in college as well (most recent one last year) and it didn't change much (a few tenths of a percent). No, I am quite un-anorexic. I mentioned I had low body fat because I work out a whole lot, and perhaps more primarily, because I was born three months premature. But yes, between 3 and 3 1/2 percent is what it is. There is a lot of fat that even very muscular people have...I apparently don't (and I consider myself pretty toned, but in no way a hulking menace!) for the above reasons.

As stated before, most of what I said about Goju Ryu was learned from reading and from what reliable sources have told me. However, it appears that most of this information given to me has been either misinformed or misleading, and I apologize for offending anyone. I did have an opportunity to watch someone perform Sanchin, but maybe that person was just doing it incorrectly (all the same, as a preference, I do not like dynanimc tension). If you actually knew me (hard considering this is an online forum...), you would know that I am never afraid to admit a mistake if I am wrong. Furthermore, a trait of critical thinking demands that any theory you have be disprovable. Apparently, mine was and the overwhelming response I have received from my post (which was mainly meant to stir the hornet's nest in order to get some people to address what I had heard before) makes me believe that my assumptions were wrong. So, I was wrong and as befits a forum for discussion, I posted my concerns and they were alleviated. Thank you for the discussion.

Well, as one of the two posters above his, I would say that my post stated clearly that contact is needed, but it doesn't require ten years of training to get your fingers or whichever weapon strong enough to do some of these techniques. I don't believe in being able to stand ten feet away (or an inch away for that matter) and hit someone with a ki blast or anything...

I believe so. It is a good drill to work timing and distance. You know what is coming, but you keep it fresh by changing the tempo constantly and the force applied. Furthermore, you can change the type of force (soft to hard, hard to soft, etc.) in order to make more variety.

pass 3%? I'm not sure about that one... I mean, contest body builders typically only diet down to 3-5 %, and even that is temporary. Unless you're an ectomorph, 3 % is extremely hard to maintain. I don't think anyone has 2%... I've known body builders who have gone past 3% (they've had test done). Like I said, I have had tests done that establish my average normal body-fat composition to be a little over 3% when I wasn't cutting weight or anything like that at all and then lost some fat (no muscle). Like I said, it isn't healthy. One guy on the boxing team started to pee blood, so we figured he was a little too low and made him drop training for a while....The bodybuilder I knew was always some sort of an unhealthy color...quite disconcerting to talk with him sometimes...

I've noticed many, but not all, have difficulty grabbing a strike that is performed quickly and correctly. If he closes in, I've noticed it to be effective if you use small weapons against sensitive targets (like the thumb in the sides of the ribs, neck, etc.). Fortunately, all my teachers have done an excellent job integrating striking and grappling (as befits traditional Okinawan karate, which is heavy on grappling), although I have just now began to take jujitsu on the side (the nearest dojo in my style is over an hour away, so I will probably only be able to make it there once a week or so and I'm not finding other competent karate dojos...). These aren't majic bullets, but will help you to get a quick release if necessary. Of course some jujitsu guys I train with consider this cheating...

Yes, I know Gojushiho and I believe there are internals in Gojushiho. I believe the Gojushiho we practice was not actually taught by Chibana, as he did not teach it (although I'm sure he knew a version), but Nakazato teaches a version that he learned from another teacher (whose name eludes me at the moment). It may have even been borrowed from Goju Ryu (despite my posts in the other topic, I still believe there are many things to gain from Goju Ryu...). The internals in Gojushiho are perhaps easier to notice, as it is decidedly more Chinese in orientation than some of our other kata. However, the more I study internals in karate, the more I find them in everything we do (hopefully that isn't just wishful thinking). Doug Perry says he teaches kata on many levels, to include strengthening the body, application, breathing, mechanics, energy (and I could swear there was one or two more but they escape me at the moment) and the like. Therefore it is not surprising to believe that there is internals in everything. Yuchoku Higa, (who trained with many people, ranging from Shorin Ryu to Goju Ryu) remarked that Shorin Ryu was a natural style, "like walking along a road". "Hard is all right for youngsters, but not for those of a mature age" and warned against the dangers of too much weight training. Getting to the point, he used an analogy which I like, comparing the relationship between hard and soft in Shorin Ryu. "Actually, the soft contains hard and is represented by a circle with dots around the circumference; the circle represents the 'soft', the dots are the 'hard'; this is the principle behind all martial arts."

Just a year. I'm actually a Kobayashi Shorin Ryu guy, but most of the concepts are all the same. I really enjoyed my time with him.

Um, you wouldn't be referring to Jeff Ader, would you? I studied under him for a year last year when I was in between teachers. A real great man and excellent instructor, I might add. Edit: My mistake, he's the Mid-Western Director...oh well...

It is a common phenomenon nowadays in Okinawa. Plus, the ones I mentioned died in 1917, 1953 and 1966, respectively... So what you're saying is that Goju ryu practitioners all drank and smoke more than their counterparts? That, or it was that much less effective in preventing early death than other styles... What part of dynamic tension is soft? The extreme body hardening techniques of Goju Ryu epitomize what is meant by a "hard" style. Besides, the main thing I was referring to was the foot anchoring and solid stances of Goju Ryu are in stark contrast to Higaonna's style of fighting, which was characterized by low and very fast footwork. Furthermore, the artificial breathing in Goju Ryu is by no means "soft" at all. In numerous studies by respected authors, Mark Bishop for example, many karate masters warned against the dangers of Goju Ryu simply because they've observed the premature death of those they considered as friends (remember, these people all trained with each other and most of them were always on friendly terms with each other). Therefore it was a warning not out of spite, but out of a sense of loss... I know much of what I know through reading many books. All the same, one of my instructors in the past was a Goju Ryu 5th dan who practiced it for over 20 years, and quit because of long term health concerns due to his training (mostly the hardness of it). Nor did I mention Yoshio Itokazu, who practised Goju Ryu for over 65 years and is over 80 years old...of course his Sanchin is preformed in a much softer way than most and tightens his legs rather than his buttocks or his anal sphincter. These are the exceptions rather than the rule. Doesn't it seem strange that the ones I mentioned were heads of Goju Ryu (or the progenitor) at one point? Lastly, I don't want this to turn into a flame war (as it seems to be). I am sharing my research on the matter and you are sharing yours. P.A.L. wrote: I am merely trying to point out the fact that most Goju Ryu stylists in Okinawa go this %100, explaining why Goju Ryu can be dangerous. Yes, if you don't do it 100 percent, then you might be alright. I'm just saying that there are many styles out there that if you do go 100 percent, you never have this problem... Lastly, this isn't a post deprecating many techniques in Goju Ryu, there are quite a bit to be found in Goju Ryu and they have had many great masters in their history and the present day. This isn't my gripe with Goju Ryu, its my gripe with extensively "hard" aspects of training in general, but this is just an example. If we agree to disagree, then that it is fine. To be fair, I think you all should get your last posts in response to mine, and then maybe someone should shut the thread before it generates any real hostility. I haven't been convinced of changing my view, and apparently I am not convincing some of you. I leave it to the discretion of moderators... EDIT: Nevermind...people can just respond to this, but I probably won't respond unless someone really wants me to. The purpose of this thread was to ask about Goju Ryu in general, so I probably should've started a new one, but didn't think about it at the time.

I think that asking about the technical aspects is going about it the wrong way, although that knowledge might aid you in answering the question. Since there is no perfect style, what distinguishes a bad or okay school from an excellent school is the principles and concepts inherent and the principles taught within a style's curriculum. It is at this point that my criticsm of certain styles begin. All styles should teach distance and timing. That is something you can find in anything from jujitsu to Tae Kwon Do. The biggest concept of all is proper Body Mechanics. I believe the biggest failure of many styles is a misunderstanding of this, most of the times due to a misapplication of physics. This doesn't mean just stances, but at every stage within every technique. An example of this is balance, which all styles teach, but most of it is a highly muscle-focused balance. This balance is necessary, it is not a bad thing. On the other hand, they neglect the balance inherent within proper body mechanics (in stances, for example) and prefer to use brute force to transition in movement. Excellent styles will teach you the in-depth aspects of striking. This includes more than just the fist and foot, and goes beyond having a broad spectrum of weapons to choose from (fingers, knuckles, etc.). There needs to be an understanding of what is effective and why it is effective (knowledge of human anatomy, BOTH yours and your opponents). I find this lacking in many styles, as the type of force generated onto an opponent is just as important as the amount. Furthermore, there needs to be an in-depth relation between striking and grappling. In my opinon, Kobayashi Shorin Ryu is not merely a "striking" art because every strike sets up grappling and every grappling manuever sets up a strike. Behind all of this, there is readily identifiable theory and concepts to integrate the two. Another concept necessary is pressure point theories (which also merge into joint and muscle manipulation). This is one of the most important concepts to grasp that help the "little guy" beat the "big guy". There's nothing mystical about it. It is what increases your chances in setting up any technique, whether a strike or a grapple or both. Joint manipulation and muscle manipulation are a part of this. (It isn't just about pain, but unbalancing). Another concept is yielding. Styles like aikido, jujitsu, taiji and (surprise!) Shorin-Ryu in my opinion teach this (this isn't an extensive laundry list, just some examples). There is too much emphasis on resisting techniques in some styles. I find subverting and enemy's technique far more effective... These aren't all the concepts, but some pretty important ones that a lot of schools miss out on. Techniques are a dime a dozen. You need to have an understanding of how something works and WHY it works. Stand up techniques can be easily adapted to the ground once this understanding is had. Yes, it helps to do groundwork, but there is no need to separate them completely because the principles are the same. It is merely the technique that is different. In short: Body Mechanics (and the effects of combat on the human anatomy) is the most important concept because it overaches all the other principles. Pressure Point (and joint/muscle) manipulation, integration between striking and grappling, yielding and the above body mechanics are the most important concepts that should be taught in a style. If you train in another style because you have something missing (concepts, not just techniques) in your style, than that reflects poorly on your style. If you train in another style to help you supplement your understanding of concepts in your style, then that isn't a bad thing.

The tonfa has been practice for centuries on Okinawa and the police stick has been around for only a matter of decades...The group of people that originally introduced the night stick into the police arsenal said it had no relation whatsoever to the Okinawan weapon, but they trained in Okinawa for a while... Of course, they may even be telling the truth, as police tactics with the weapon almost in no way whatsoever resemble the traditional kobudo use of the tonfa...