Shorin Ryuu

This is an interesting question, one which I ponder quite frequently, in fact. Yes, in the "old" days, people would train under different masters. I might make a mention that this wasn't because each master did not know as much as they do now, but because many were encouraged to do so by their masters in order to see differing perspectives on same things or even different things. Many Shuri-te practitioners trained with Naha-te teachers, and vice versa. Many in both approaches trained in China. Sokon Matsumura is purported to have even received a menkyo kaiden in Jigen Ryu swordsmanship, but this is yet to be actually verified. Suffice it to say, he was a shining example of having studied many different ways of fighting. The teaching of kata was passed down to the student where rigid adherence was first required. Later, the student was encouraged to personalize the kata to themselves. However, it was important that the student understood the principles involved first, rather than just modifying it carelessly. The reason why the ryu system was passed on into Okinawan karate is actually pretty simple. When it really attracted the notice of the Japanese, Okinawan karate was in a pretty sad state. Even when the style system was not in place, there were still a lot of rivalries between some schools, although many masters and students from differing traditions were on friendly terms with each other. The tightly kept secrecy of the art of te and what could be considered archaic training methods meant that it was actually close to dying out. The standardization of training methods and the more established nature of styles vs. the traditional method of student and teacher was an attempt to prevent this from happening. There are other reasons for this, of course, but it comes down to that had this rigid style system not been introduced, karate would not be anywhere near as widespread or even known that much. This style system was partly responsible for and partly in response to the introduction of karate into the school system, first in Okinawa and then in Japan. There were many attempts to standardize everything, but the diverse nature of karate itself made such a thing more difficult. The famous 1936 meeting of te masters is a very interesting read, if you can find it. The version of the transcript that I have is in one of Paul McCarthy's book: Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts: Uchinadi Koryu. I thought that book was good because it took a good look at karate during the early 1900s (and some before that, but the main focus was the formative years of "modern" traditional karate). I for one have never been discouraged by any instructor that I have had within the past four years or so (what I consider the true start of my martial arts journey, in Kobayashi Shorin Ryu karate, Matsumura Shorin Ryu karate, Jujitsu, Iaido) from learning as much as I could. All these teachers and instructors I have trained with for varying lengths of time, some at the same time (7 of them), were very supportive and encouraging of my desire to learn anything. I probably for the foreseeable future will remain a Shorinkan Shorin Ryu practitioner, but that in no way stops me from pursuing as much as possible in other things. Plus, I suppose being in the military forces me to change instructors frequently, anyway. These instructors see what many do not: Techniques differ from style to style. Principles are approached from different angles, but the principles remain the same. So yeah, if people want to praise Bruce Lee for being such a revolutionary, they can. But in traditional Okinawan circles, the idea of having an open mind (the true "secret" to Jeet Kun Do, I guess) and being open to fresh perspectives is far from being new. Lest the last paragraph derail the topic, let me close with one final thought. I have always lamented the politics at the higher levels of karate coming from ego, money and the ryu system in Okinawa, Japan and America. At the same time, we are indebted to it for preserving what was a dying art and making it extremely popular. Do I think the ryu system is a little rigid at times? Yes. Do I think there should be less greed, money, etc. at the higher levels? Yes. Do I think it should be dismantled? No. For all of its flaws, it still serves a useful purpose. It provides some coalescion of ideas, concepts and techniques, preserves them in a manner to be transmitted to future generations, and still allows the current practitioners to modify them as they see fit or keep what is still applicable. There is a danger of doing this too much (by people who might not recognize something valuable when they see it). Furthermore, there is a worry by some that some old techniques and principles may be lost. Fortunately, if you talk to a lot of highly skilled people, they say that not everything they know was shown to them, they had to figure it out on their own. I can guarantee you that no one was able to do this with a closed mind. The ryu system provides an important base and launching point for many to begin their path in the martial arts. Some choose to stay within a specific style, some do not. I think the most important thing is to focus upon that which matters most: the nurturing of martial arts within yourself and the transmission of it to future generations. [end rambling essay]

dude man...i thikn u think u think bettr n us...i talk way iwant...type way iwant...un thees days i coman hit u....flahs punch 2 ur faice.....maik yur hed spin... ...That was much more difficult making it up, I'm sure.

P.A.L.: you know the seven drills for Shorinkan, right? Some of them look a little similar to the ones in Nagamine's book, but they are usually a lot longer.

Yes, I know (my branch of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu still does this). Both Tatsuo and Zenryo were students of Kyan Chotoku, but Tatsuo tried to emphasize his vertical punch in his teachings of Isshin Ryu (very much his own version of various styles' teachings), but you would often see him still revert to the 45 degree punch, which is the point I was trying to make.

If you get a wholesale account, you can get gi for as cheap as 10 - 12 dollars from Asian World of Martial Arts. Even the higher quality 14 oz gi are about 30-40 dollars with the discount. They also offer discounts for large orders (Up to 15 % off of wholesale prices over 750 dollars and they have seasonal sales now and then).

...you have the luxury of living up in Montana... Of course, when I lived in Colorado, I never had to worry about rust on my sai ever. Now that I'm in California and the majority of my sai work is done outside...

As far as snuffing out the candle with your sword, don't even think about snuffing out the candle. That is just a side effect of doing the technique properly. If you focus on practicing your technique and you do it properly, then it will be snuffed out. This is an example of artificial difficulty added into the mental aspect rather than the physical aspect. Just do what you normally do (I assume this is a horizontal cut). If it is a vertical cut, then all I can say is really focus on control.

Ryokucha = Green tea I told a Japanese host family that I liked it once and they forced me bags and bags of it on me before I left...I still have some left. Soy Milk...anyone who frequents the Health and Fitness forums is sick to death of hearing about this one from me, I'm sure.

At the risk of totally derailing the topic (or maybe not, I'm sure most people will agree with me), it wasn't so much the law that was flawed (it was, but...) as the entire social perspective.

This seems like a yes or no question, so yes, you can get a more muscular body. The question is, what are you eating and what are you doing at the fitness place?

I saw a nit, and decided to pick it. Anyway, Shimabukuro Tatsuo's Isshin Ryu was termed that in the 50s, not a century ago. As this thread has gone every which way but forward, apparently, so shall I. Pointing out that Isshin Ryu is about 50 years old wasn't my attack on it. Although even then, Tatsuo's actions caused quite a bit of consternation among many Okinawan masters. This contrasts with the actions of his younger brother (Eizo) who started his own style Shobayashi Shorin Ryu, but as the continuation of his teacher's teachings. Eizo, by the way, was officially granted the 10th dan rank at the age of 36. How's that for quick advancement? He was respected in the karate community, and that rank was not contested. Okinawan teachers classically didn't really adopt names for what they taught other than the generic "te" (ti) or toute (toudi, toude) or in a publication that I want to say was in the first decade of the 20th century (or maybe the last of the 19th), the actual first record of the use "karate" in print. They didn't have to. For the longest time, they usually on taught within the family or friends of the family or their friends. This was something the Japanese found strange, as the ryu system has always been huge in Japan. So all Okinawan karate names are still relatively new. As far as someone calling it Ishin, it sounds a little suspect, but who knows? It is entirely plausible that the founder of it in 1990 maybe mispelled it unknowingly. Or maybe he like the connotations of Isshin "One heart" and wanted to use it, but decided not to use the double s to avoid confusion. "One heart" isn't very original. Nor is Ikken, "one sword", yet you find these a lot in Japanese sword styles. Not that I'm advocating people blatanly ripping of someone else's organization, no matter what the age. This is just my ramblings, anyway, with some historical tidbits here and there.

Attention passengers. Not only has this thread been hijacked, but we will now divert it to the Bahamas. Happy flying. Right...anyway... Well, I for one think that there is too much emphasis on the "test". Despite all the cool tales of Shaolin monks picking up scalding hot iron cauldrons with just their forearms, the "test" as we know it today is obviously relatively new to karate. I don't need to tell you this, Shorinryu Sensei (this is more for the purpose of the argument), you know as an instructor that you don't test people unless you're ready. Therefore the test is just something nice to stand out in the memory of the person who tested (I almost phrased that differently, but caught myself...), especially after the shodan level. I am beginning to seriously wonder if any of the huge "haze" tests are really necessary after a certain point, if at all. I suppose some of it is necessary in today's external reward-driven society. Not accusing you of this, but most people out there need that hurdle to jump in front of them before they feel they've done it. Let alone the fact that they've been training their hearts out all this time, but they need that crowning achievement. It's not bad, I just don't find it absolutely necessary. My point being is that your teacher knows you, he trusts you, so I personally find nothing wrong with what you described in your last post. If anything, that probably resembles more of the old way of teaching than anything else. And on that note, congratulations. You've obviously earned it.

Yes, I've looked through the thread on the martial arts library, but it wasn't too helpful (there were some books mentioned, but only by two people). So I'm curious, what good (history, theory, and/or techniques) books are helpful for someone trying to learn more about jujitsu or judo? I'm taking Japanese jujitsu right now, but would not mind info about anything.

I've only been in Shorin Ryu for four years. I've had the opportunity to train with nothing but excellent instructors for those four years, but only four years nonetheless. I had only what I consider marginal experience in the martial arts (looking back, it was probably a mcdojo, but it gave me the opportunity to learn some basic fundamentals) before this. During the past four years, I had the opportunity to meet and train with, philosophize with, and hang out with stylists from all over the country and varying skill levels. I try not to draw any conclusions about styles that I've only had one encounter with, or even several. And yes, I read a lot. But I wear contacts Incidentally, when I was in Japan once, I wore glasses for a little bit. It was me, a white friend and a black friend. Some Japanese, trying to be friendly, mentioned that I looked like Harry Potter (glasses), my white friend looked like Tom Cruise, and my black friend looked like Chris Rock. None of this could have been further from the truth, but your comment reminded me of that... My Matsumura teacher once told me: There are many people that train for thirty years. You can do just one year thirty times as most people do, or thirty different years one at a time, where you keep learning. I am glad to see that you are in the latter category.

I think you give me more credit that I deserve...

Taiji learning will greatly enhance your understanding of karate (traditional). It has many (not necessarily all) principles that are the same with Okinawan karate for sure. I concur with delta1: train under a master (hopefully your instructor is...there are too many instant tai chi masters out there).

Shorinryu Sensei: You know me too well, hehe. Sho-ju: Did you mean Shuri te and Tomari te? Shorei refers more to the Naha te styles while Shuri te refers to the Shorin styles. At any rate, I believe Tomari te to be closer to Shuri Te and is more of a mix of Shorei and Shuri (it developed around the village of Tomari, hence the name, as opposed to Shuri or Naha). Of course, all styles properly taught do share the natural stances. Tomari-te for the most part lost a lot of distinction between Shuri te, largely due to the fact that a lot of Shuri te styles adopted some of the more traditional Tomari te kata, such as Seisan, Wankan Wanshu, Rohai. I'm sure Shorinryu sensei can attest to the existence of seisan, wanshu and rohai within Matsumura Shorin Ryu. Like I said, Tomari is more closely related to Shuri te and sort of merged with it. Tomari, like Shuri, was typified by light, quick snapping movements. Kosaku Matsumora (not the o, different from Matsumura Sokon) taught a lot of people, including Motobu Choki and Kyan Chotoku. Sorry, this one kind of rambled a bit... EDIT: As an aside, family styles like Motobu are supposed to be more the original, unadulterated form of Okinawa te (as opposed to Shuri or Naha styles). They are considered native arts of Okinawa and are heavily involved in circling, not just in the technique itself, but also in the entire motion of the body. Despite Mark Bishop's shadiness, he (and not just him, other authors as well) brings up an important point about its existence.

Basically, Koryuu means "Old style" (basically refers to a traditional martial art, not something modern) and "Uchinaadi" is the way to say Okinawa Te (Uchinaa = Okinawa, ti (di when it is part of a compound) = te) in Hogan, the Okinawan dialect of Japanese. McCarthy has an excellent background in the Okinawan martial arts. I have never had the chance to meet him, but I would more than welcome the opportunity if I was ever so lucky. He also has a large collection of books that he has written on the subject of martial arts, some of which I have read.

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=14693 It's okay that this topic was addressed before because it was on a previous page, but this is pretty much my answer on it (I have two posts on it, I think).

I don't know as much about Yoshitaka, but I would modify the latter paragraph. As the first sentence implies that he adapted kata, the second second implies (maybe just semantics) that he developed (formulated) those kata. It might be more accurate to say that he modified those kata rather than develop them. It is true that he developed them in the Shotokan context, but the term "develop kata" is used more often with the connotations of creating rather than the modification, which is present in almost all styles. Almost all of that I recognize offhand are Japanese names for Okinawan kata. At any rate, this is right, Funakoshi's karate was very different from his son's, although I think it is very unfair to Funakoshi to say that he did not include the "do" aspect of it. Most people consider Funakoshi to be the father of all "karate-do". You can see in his writings the dramatic shift from pure jutsu to do that his focus undergoes. I think philosophically, the "do" aspect was already firmly in place from the efforts of Funakoshi and Yoshitaka changed more of the principles and techniques of the fighting. I have my criticisms on this, and as usual, if any one wants to hear them, email me via my profile (real, not the messaging system). Bottom line: I think Funakoshi deserves more credit than this excerpt provides. As it is an excerpt, I do not know the full context of it, but it just seems unfair to him.

Shorin Ryu is considered a hard style by those who do not understand its concepts. Yes, there is aspects of hard in Shorin Ryu. At the same time, all the underlying principles are soft. Granted, when I first started taking it, I thought it was hard as well. When I learned more, I had to change my view on everything. You mention that there are less circles in Shorin Ryu. Last time I checked, the style was replete with them. Only, a straight line is use to make a circle, not a circle to make a circle. This concept is used in Tai Chi as well, and I don't daresay that anyone calls Tai Chi hard... The circles in Shorin Ryu are tighter, so they are less obvious. As far as common bias that Okinawan stylists have against Shotokan, yes, you are right. But I have trained with Shotokan stylists for years, who were from all around the country, not just one dojo.

No problem...I was addressing him as well.

That still doesn't change the fact that you aren't supposed to hurt yourself when doing shadowboxing. I wasn't doing a one-to-one comparison, I was noting that both of them should be injury-free.

That means you are punching incorrectly...think of it as doing kata. You certainly don't hurt yourself doing kata, so you shouldn't be doing so when you are shadow boxing. I certainly didn't when I was boxing. If you are too tired, try doing sets of skipping rope.

Okay, then my original assertion remains. Until you have learned more than just the techniques, don't worry about learning too much more information. There are no such things as advanced techniques, just advanced interpretations of the basics.