tatsujin

Ah! No, I had actually missed that part of the situation. Sorry about that! Just a thought for your situation? You have probably already thought of it already, but I will share anyway if you don't mind. Since it is more of a "corporate environment" (for lack of a better term), I would suggest writing up a little proposal. Make it for a "new" class that can be taught OR a series of weekend seminars where you (or whomever) can teach on kata and bunkai. There is alot of filler that you can put into this that would cover what would be taught and why. But, at the end of the day, this shows how new, additional and ongoing revenue could be generated from this over time. That, unfortunately, would be what would catch their attention more than anything else. Additionally, if you can do so without getting into any sort of trouble, I would conduct a survey of your student body base to see how many folks would fall into a category range like extremely interested, interested, somewhat interested, not interested and use those numbers as a part of your justification and in potential revenue projection. Bottom line is that if you find yourself in a more corporate and money driven situation, just try to find ways to operate within that environment, but you still get "what you want". That proverbial "win-win" situation. Give it some thought. Maybe that or something along those lines will work for you. Thanks!

I appreciate the response and comments. Your hypothesis rings true to me. I would ask you to extrapolate that a little further if you don't mind...Let's assume for a moment that the above is correct. Do you think that this Kiko is or was, within any stylistic or regional art, taught as a complete art or do you think it was only "bits and pieces"....those elements that, for whatever reason, fit into what they were developing back in Okinawa (or was the limit of what they had been taught in China and absorbed)? While I have had an interest in this regard for quite some time, I became much more interested in it due to my studies in Taoism. In this school and in the martial arts the emanated from it, there are complete systems of qigong that cover meditation work, breath work, energy work, etc. But, since most of these systems and schools come from the north of China, our Okinawan forefathers would have had virtually no exposure to them. My thanks again for your time and thoughts on this.

OK...I think this is the best place to post this since it is "weapons related". I have to make an admission here that some may think should end up in the revocation of my "man card"....I am capable at many things, but working with tools? Not so much? I have found an EDC knife (folder) that I absolutely love. So, for training purposes, I am going to buy another one and then dull the blade. The point and the single edge. So, here is the question...how would I go about doing this? Meaning, is there a single decent priced tool that I can use to do this? Like a Dremel (sp?) or something like that? Any specific "tip" or attachment? Since this will be a single one time use for the tool, I am trying to keep the cost down. Any and all suggestions are welcome. Hopefully I come out of this with all of my fingers! LOL! Thanks!

Ah! You sir are a gentleman and a scholar! Thank you very much for the assistance. The general description that Ryan provides is right in line with what the teachings are from, primarily, the Daoist based arts (martial and qigong). It actually goes a little further than that as it as a work towards opening all of the joints. And then there are more advanced practices that take things a bit further, but would not necessarily be pertinent to the subject at hand. Interesting that one source has some basic information on it and another has literally no information. It again points out to me the oddity that there is such a lack of codified kiko practices in Okinawa, even though there is a heavy influence from Southern China...where practices such as these surely would have been taught. Would you happen to have any thoughts on this? Thank you again for your help and assistance with this.

[quote name="Himokiri Karate" I just responded and it was an amazing post. Now that you mentioned dragon gate. I remember a book written by by François Lépine. I think he talked about Kuji-in and Qi-Gong. The pics depicted moving meditation or something to that nature. I have to re-read it again. As far as the supernatural topic goes' date=' I really love David's work. He is a computer scientist and breaks it down in a very pragmatic manner. His teaching is more clinical and devoid of culture but more from the perspective of how a supernatural would occur and that some folks have a conscious mastery of it and some cannot control it because their mental landscape is too messy for consistent replication of ability. Some folks who have these abilities can perform them in a conditional setting from a place of comfort an quietness but not if their surrounding is messy. While he mentions that a true master can perform their abilities under any condition. Stress, fear and excitement is said to cause a blockage in the Chakras which shuts down a manifestation of a special ability. This is what I have been told. I would love for a day to come so that I too can experience the pinnacle of human potential.[/quote] Glad you liked some of the rambling! LOL! I just responded there to some of the information you were asking for (as best I could). Lepine's stuff is interesting. I am still undecided on some of it. I will, if you don't mind, make a recommendation to you... Unless you have a qualified hands on instructor, stay away from the chakra stuff. At least until you have built a good foundation. I'll try to keep the reasoning behind this warning brief as it an really turn into a wide ranging rambling...LOL! Generally speaking, there are two methods of any energetic art or practice. The water method and the fire method. The fire method(s) are any that essentially draw energy UP through the body. It is very Yang and very "hot" in nature. The water method(s) are those that have the energy come DOWN through the body. Yin in nature and much more "passive" or "gentle" in nature. You can train both. I have and I do. And, I teach that way. However, I rely primarily on the water method(s). The simplest way to look at this (for those that believe in qi...or whatever you want to call it)...a very simplistic explanation...qi is like energy. It moves through the body using the meridians, the extraordinary meridians and the fascia. Nerves also play a big role in this. The more "current" (qi) you want to run through a transfer medium (like wire), the stronger the wire needs to be to support it. Wire is rated for the current you are going to run through it. Run too much through a wire that can't handle it and it heats up massively and can melt. The idea here is that it does damage. The body is the same way. The internal infrastructure needs to be able to support the amount of energy you want to run through it. Run too much before the system can handle it and you get "too hot" and can "melt things". Qigong sickness is a real thing (Zou huo ru mo - 走火入魔). Kundalini and other chakra related systems can blast way too much "current" through a system (your body) that is not ready for it. It just isn't worth playing with (risk/reward model). IF you must get into a fire method (especially if you are attempting to do it on your own), you need to spend 20% of your time on it (fire method) and 80% of you time on a water method. That doesn't mean that you can't "go play with the fire". Just lay the proper foundation before doing so. Been there, done that and (unfortunately) got the t-shirt. Last piece of advice if I may on this topic? Don't set out to chase the "pinnacle of human potential" or any other kind of outcome. Let what comes to you come to you. Enjoy it when it comes. Learn from it. Build upon it. But, don't force it. Don't chase it. Don't desire it. Your mileage (and that of anyone reading this) may certainly vary. Rambling mode off for the night! Hope that is of some help to you.

I am glad you found something useful out my ramblings! LOL! When you get into the Korean based arts, I start to get a little out of my wheelhouse (so to speak)...but I can contribute a bit... Way back in the day (in the early 80's), I was out in CA (Hollywood). It wasn't too hard to get to Downey, so I was able to spend some time at Joo Bang Lee (and his brother Joo Sang Lee) at their Hwrangdo school. The art they teach has a number of "esoteric" sub-arts or specialties within it. How legit is the art? I can't really speak to that as I don't have the skill or knowledge to do so. Nice bunch of folks when I was there and certainly an interesting art. The whole hook up they did with Mike Echanis seemed really to try and take advantage of the "ninja craze" that was going on at the time. However, that is my personal opinion. Note that I never met Echanis, he had already died in South America by the time I got out there. I did have his complete book series that he did with Joo Bang Lee. Kuk Sool Won has some healing, breathing and meditation practices. While I played a very small bit with some Kuk Sool folks through a Hapkido school I had a connection to many years ago, I had almost no exposure to any of it and really would not be comfortable in commenting on it. But, may be work a look for you. Lastly, I did read a snippet about an art called Sunmudo or maybe Seonmudo. I have zero experience here other than when I read about the secrecy and whatnot, I didn't get a good feeling from it. Just my personal opinion. From what very little bit I saw, it very much reminded me about all of the "Shaolin Temples" that popped up all over China. I could be completely and totally wrong on that. Just point out that it may be something for you to investigate more. I do know that Buddhism has a stong foothold in Korea and came there from China in, around, the 4th century. There are a number of sects of Buddhism in Korea and I know that they differ on fairly significant doctrines than the Buddhism I am familiar with (primarily) through the Dragon Gate Sect of the Complete Reality School (this school has elements of Buddhism as well as Taoism). One of the notes I have in my software referenced the Jingak Order as being esoteric in nature. But, it is relatively new and I would not be able to speak to it or the teachings that they have. If you have an interest in the various esoteric traditions, I would really suggest you have a look to the Dragon Gate Sect of the Complete Reality School (of Taoism). Not trying to convert you or anything! LOL! Just that there is a wide body of esoteric topics and teachings that have a very direct connection to the martial arts. I have found enough information within this tradition to keep me studying, learning and practicing for the next several lifetimes. Just a thought. I am certainly willing to discuss with you any of esoteric systems or concepts that you like (if I have anything to share that is). Hope this helps!

At the end of the day, "you gotta do you". Certainly if you are uncomfortable with the sensei/deshi relationship from the outset, then it probably would not bode well for either of you. I am one of those people that takes such a relationship pretty seriously (one of the reasons I don't run a commercial school or teach many folks period). It seems to be lost on most martial artists nowadays. Sad to see... Good convo though!

Yes, I am familiar with Ryan's stuff. I actually use to communicate with him "back in the day" on the interwebs...not that he would remember me or know me from the proverbial "Adam". I tried reaching out to him via email using the last one I had, but never got a response. I don't think it bounced come to think of it. I had heard that he had some sort of health issues in the past (not sure if that is true or not). That might have something to do with it. I was off the interwebs for quite some time, so I lost contact with alot of people. Thanks though!

Thanks! I am familiar with the Daoist traditions in this regard (water method) by being an initiate in the Longmen Pai (Dragon Gate Sect - 龙门派) of the Complete Reality School (Quanzhen - 全真) of Daoism. My interest here is in learning more about the Okinawan Kiko (気功 - gigong) methods that seem to be almost impossible to find. The water methods concentrate right from the beginning of training to open up the joints. The joints, by the way, are said to all have "energy gates" and opening them (via and in conjunction with) opening the joints are of extreme importance. Thanks!

Happy Chinese New Year! I would like to wish all members of the forum a very happy new year (Chinese)! We kick of 15 days of celebration and after the last two years, I will take ANY opportunity to celebrate a little! If YOU were born in the year of the tiger (1950, 1962, 1974, 1986, 1998, 2010), then THIS IS YOUR YEAR! If you were born in a year of the tiger (your Ben Ming Nian), it can be a challenging year for you. Therefore, one thing you can do to help mitigate this is to wear red! Belts, socks, shoes...any kind of red clothing. What is considered to be especially lucky is to wear red underwear! It is even more lucky for you if it is purchased for you by your spouse! So, keep that in mind.. Not only are we in the year of the tiger, but we are specifically in the year of a "water tiger". The last time this happened was 1962. I feel fortunate to have found this forum a few months ago. I look forward to spending the Year of the Tiger with all of you!

Thanks for the detailed response bushido_man96, I really appreciate it! Among all that you said, one thing kind of smacked me in the head a bit... I was not aware that a kata (poomsae) could be trademarked! That is very interesting. I wonder if they have ever tried to enforce that in court? I only say that because the individual moves within the form are certainly not original to them. So, I guess they were granted the trademark based on the order in which you perform them...along with the direction...interesting... Again, the above is just something very minor. I do appreciate your reply. At one point, my Shotokan rank was recognized or "duplicated" in TKD. I'll have to go dig them out and remind myself who they were issued by. Thanks again!

Ah! Thank you sir! I would appreciate it very much. I heard the term used once by Higaonna Morio at a Gasshuku back in the 90's and was not at a point where I could follow up with him personally. I then read it in an article that, for the life of me, I can not find (also back in the 90's) in relation to Okinawan kiko (気功)...in particular. It is along the lines of kai he gong (opening and closing work - 開合功) in qigong traditions and, I am supposing, follows much of the Taoist training found in Taijiquan, Baguazhang, and Xingyiquan. From those traditions, it is very much an opening (elongating if you prefer) of the joints...done for "energetic" reasons. I would be very interested in anything at all that you (or anyone else!) could help me uncover.

Thanks for your response. I am glad that some of my ramblings are of benefit to someone. I don't know about the wisdom part necessarily, but when you have been around for a while, you get to know people and situations and at least gives you a frame of reference to speak to. As for personality and the like...take someone from history like Motobu Choki. By all accounts, he was not the most "nice" person around. From what I have read about him (and, to an extent, by him), there are probably more accurate terms that could be used but are not appropriate here. But, there is no doubt as to the effectiveness of Motobu-ryu. Speaking from personal experience, I have been accused of trying to flaunt knowledge or trying to act like I am better than others or more skilled than others, etc. by some in the past because of my continued use of Japanese and Chinese (and in some cases Uchinaguchi...even though that language continues to baffle me more and more) and associated ideograms. I do it for the sake of being clear and, hopefully, others doing their own research on topics and coming up with their own conclusions. So, to some degree I can understand why I personally think Patrick speaks the way he does. Keep in mind that for a long time, he was in an academic setting in Australia (I think he is back in Okinawa now?). Anyway, if you have ever been in a setting of higher academia where the letter salad behind a person's name and the like seems to be the most important thing (along with having obtained tenure and when you were last published), it could be a coping mechanism from there or, essentially, a means to "defend" yourself. Additionally, I can tell you from back in the day of email lists on the interwebs that Patrick had many, many detractors. Using a large and somewhat long winded vocabulary and writing style COULD be means of defense against them. I, obviously, can't tell you what is in his head or what is motivations are. But, if I can get beneficial skills and/or information from him with that being the price to pay, I am personally OK with it. I don't think this is the case here (in regards to you or anyone else that has responded to this thread), but I do think that sometimes we put instructors (whatever their title may be) on a pedestal higher than it should be. Even with the Japanese and their very big push as to martial arts to polish the soul or perfection of character, I think we should usually limit that to martial arts in most cases. Or, in other words and maybe a better way of saying it is that for many folks we have a skewed ideal for who those that teach the martial and energetic arts should have. Remember, the Japanese (and to a large extent most Asian cultures) have a concept of tatemae (建前 - a fake front or facade) and honne (本音 - true sound). Tatemae is what is shown in public and to most other people in any setting. It is a sort of "go along to get along". Don't "stir the pot" or "make waves". Honne is what you really think and feel. That is kept private and not shown except, maybe, to the people that are closest to you. Westerners tend to be very different and will, usually, say what they think. Even if it is against the grain to a greater or lesser degree. So, we apply an Japanese (or Asian) ideal to a person that does not follow or support the display of that ideal. Anyway... I am rambling again! LOL!

I am glad you found some usefulness from my ramblings. As to kuji-kiri (九字切り and by default kuji-in 九字印), I did respond a few months back to a post of yours...I am not sure if you saw it as there was no response that I saw. You can find it here for reference: https://www.karateforums.com/the-esoteric-aspect-of-martial-arts-vt53204.html I would just say in short here that I do think you might have some of the esoteric side of things a bit out of line. But, I don't know where you got your information. And, most certainly your source could be much more knowledgeable than I am. But, I am a follower and adept in the Dragon Gate Sect (Longmen Pai - 龙门派) of the Complete Reality School of Taoism (全真). Taoism itself is replete with esoteric teaching and knowledge. I cannot say that I am personally "sold" on all of the teachings. However, I can say that I have seen some crazy stuff that makes me rethink all that I believe and how the universe works. And it is a wide open area that covers longevity, sleep, sex, general health, meditation, mental/spiritual enlightenment, martial arts and more. If you have a genuine interest in more esoteric aspects of your training (that would go along with your interest in yoga), then you might look to the Dragon Gate. Once you find a qualified instructor, it might really broaden your horizons. Just a thought...check out that other post if you haven't in the past. You might find something interesting or useful there as well.

I was wondering if anyone could help me out with the Okinawan (Uchinaaguchi) term "gyame". I have only found it referenced in a few places and those are over a decade old (or more). As I understand it, the term refers to the opening of the joints in the human body. I am trying to find out more about the teaching and see, specifically, if it relates to the concepts of opening the joints in Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiquan as well as many or most (if not all) of the Taoist water tradition qigong methods. Would there happen to be anyone here who is familiar with the term or has been trained in it? Or can point me in any direction? Maybe you have a good Okinawan source that you could send the question off to for me? Thanks in advance to anyone that might be able to help me out!

I should also add that quite some time ago, there was an interesting project created by Dr. Samantha May in Okinawa. It was called: "Uchinaanchu nu Tuudi tu Tegua" (Okinawan Karate and Kobudo Handbook - 沖縄語の空手と古武道のハンドブック) It was far from complete, but was very interesting. I have reached out to Dr. May on a few occasions. The email never seems to bounce, but I never got a response. I was trying to see if this was being carried on or if someone else had picked it up. The version that I have seems to be about 8 years old. I can post up the version that I have, but I don't think I am allowed to share a link like that. There are no copyright notices that I see as a part of the document. But, if you search a bit, I am sure it can be found with moderate Google-fu skills. Hope that helps.

By and large, the terms are Japanese. The Okinawan language (at least one of them...primarily spoken in the central and southern region/islands...I think there are a total of 6 or 7 actual languages spoken throughout Okinawa) is Uchināguchi (沖縄口). Most people in Okinawa speak Japanese except for a contingent of older folks. Actually, the language is danger of dying out in the next decade or so unless something is done to keep it alive. Most martial arts these days on Okinawa (at least in my experience) are taught in Japanese. There are some terms like chinkuchi (チンクチ), gamaku (ガマ) and others that are the actual Okinawan terms as opposed to Japanese. Here are a few examples that I had handy in my note taking software. Obviously there are more, but I don't have them handy: Punch - chichi [or chikei] (tsuki) Straight punch – chichidi (tsuki-te) Clenched fist – tijikun (seiken) Back-fist - ura tijikun (ura-seiken) Hammer-fist - uchidi (uchi-te) [usually called “tettsui-uchi” in Japanese] Sword hand - tigatana (shuto) Spear-hand - nuchidi (nukite) Back-hand uradi (ura-te) [usually called “kaishu uchi” in Japanese] Forearm strike - udi-uchi (ude-uchi) Pulling-hand - fichidi (hiki-te) Elbow strike - hijigee ati (hiji ate) Kick – giri (geri) Front kick - mee giri (mae geri) Side kick - yuku-giri (yoko geri) Back kick - kushi giri (koshi geri) Knee kick - chinshi giri Toe kick - iibi zaachi giri Naihanchi kick - naifanchi-giri (naihanchi-geri) Reception [block] - uki (uke) High reception - wii uki (ue-uke) Rising reception - aji uki (age-uke) Down reception - hicha-uki (shita-uke) Outside reception - fuka-uki (hoka-uke) Inside reception - naaka uki (naka uke), uchi uki (uchi uke) Heavy-sticky – muchimi (mochimi) Heavy hands - ti nu umumi (te no omomi...something along the lines of iron palm) Changing hand - findi or finrii (henshu) Hopefully, that is of some help to you.

I am sorry that I had trouble following alot of what you posted due to, I assume, was technical difficulties you were having in quoting and replying. But, the above did jump out at me and I wanted to reply to a couple of points that might be relevant here. First, I have generally found that alot of martial artists (especially those in the West) are "collectors" of katas. It is almost more important to be able to talk about how many katas you know or variations of katas or katas from a specific teacher than it is to know and/or understand the principles that are being taught in the katas. White crane (白鶴) is a good example of that. I was around when that was the big fad among Okinawan martial artists (especially Goju-ryu). And it was like different kata were being passed around and traded like baseball cards. Most of the historical martial arts leaders or founders prior to 1900 didn't teach that many kata in the first place. And, they very often seemed to give different people different kata. Now, we end up with some variants of Shotokan having like 25 of them. Shito-ryu has something like 50 kata in their system! Also, Soken is an interesting aspect to the martial arts as they developed in Okinawa and then spread out to the rest of the world. Since he went to Argentina in 1924 and did not return to Okinawa until 1952, he "missed" much of the changes made to the art and was, by all apparent sources less concerned about ranks and titles. Much of what I was told was that the instructors in Okinawa (after WWII), ended up promoting many American (or Western) people to ranks much higher than they would someone who was Okinawan (or Japanese). The main reasoning was that this person was going to leave and be a representative of the style in another country. The implication was that they would continue their training and that would include coming back to Okinawa for more and ongoing training. Some of the thought there was that who would want a nidan or sandan opening up a dojo in the US and being the representative of the art? It would be "better" if that person was a godan (or higher) and then said person would "grow" into that rank and then continue to progress. I am NOT saying that all Americans (or ALL Westerners in general) fall into this category of people. But, I do believe that many of them do. A good example of this is someone that I trained with and under. In training in Goju-ryu, he was a nidan (2nd degree black belt) that was preparing to test for sandan. He ended up stopping his training with his then sensei (who was a godan or 5th degree black belt) and switched to a Japanese based Goju organization and immediately became a yondan (or 4th degree). After a few more years, he switched over to a different Okinawan organization and became a shichidan (7th degree black belt) along with a kyoshi license. All of this happened in a relatively short period of time (in "karate years" anyway). His instructor in Goju-ryu that was a 5th dan when all of this started? He is still alive and actively training and teaching Goju-ryu...in the same organization as when this all started...and he is graded at 8th dan. So, my friend has all but caught his original instructor...primarily through hoping, skipping and jumping through different organizations that were willing to hand out different ranks. This is NOT to say that my friend is not a competent martial artist. He is. Just a quick story to try and point out that many Okinawan (and Japanese) take a different level of importance to rank (and titles) than Americans do. And...rank does not necessarily equate to what we think it does. OK, rambling again so I will quit.

I especially like the method of doing the kata like Taijiquan (太极拳). That is, doing them slowly with no power or tension. Why? Because I think the true or main purpose(s) of the kata is twofold. One is to develop and understand the concepts of gamaku and chinkuchi. Gamaku (ガマ) is an Okinawan term or concept of where (and how) power is generated from. Generally speaking, the body's center (although, that is a bit of an oversimplification). You'll see other terms for this like as koshi (腰) in Japanese and kua (胯) in the Chinese arts (primarily Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiquan). Chinkuchi (チンクチ) is another Okinawan term or concept for a large "power" that can be demonstrated in just "a little bit" of movement. Think along the lines of fajin (發勁) from the Chinese internal martial arts. For a Western approach that does not take the concept of qi (ki or chi) into account, this is very helpful in being able to "feel" and train the proper closed kinetic chains that are used to develop, move and finally express power in the techniques (in this case of the kata). By way of example...in Taijiquan, the opening of the form is usually called "commencement" or some variation of that (起势 - Qǐshì). for many folks, it is often overlooked, but should not be. In Taijiquan, it is taught that there are "eight gates" (八門 - bamen). These "gates" are the eight ( ways of directing power within the body. The four (4) primary "gates" are peng (ward off - 掤), lu (履 - roll back), ji (擠 - press) and an (按 - push). All four of these primary gates are used in "commencement". You could teach a long seminar just on commencement...but that is another story. So the point here is to not make karate Taijiquan. Or to make karate an "internal" art (it is not an internal art). But, the slow motion aspect of this does allow us to learn how power is generated at the feet or from the ground, issued through the leg(s), directed through the waist and expressed at the fingers. This cannot be learned by doing the kata full power with full speed. Only through this broken down slow speed does it allow us to concentrate on these particular aspects. I personally think that one of the major downsides to how "karate" is generally taught in modern times is that power (or, if you prefer, the force generated by a technique) is really only taught via local muscular generation and not through proper closed kinetic chains. This whole process is, generally, learned through a process of trial and error and is only obtained (for most) far down the training timeline. In doing the kata in a slow and relaxed manner (concentrating on the coordination of the muscle/fascia chains) gives you a great head start in achieving the overall goal of the katas. Your mileage may vary of course...

Ah! Thank you sir! That helps. I would not, personally, rely on a fictional TV show to impart any sort of historical fact. However, if it does spur personal interest, research and learning...then I guess that it has served its purpose. I think in answering this question, you really have to understand the situation at the time. Many folks have posted good snippets along those lines. It is important to understand that prior to about 1900, there really were not martial arts "schools" (dojo - 道場). Or styles, or ranks...or any of the things that we would normally think of along those lines. You were merely a "student of so-and-so". 1900 is used a general line of demarcation because it is around this time that "karate" was being pushed into the school system in order to popularize the art and make it more "mainstream" to not only the educational system, but on mainland Japan as well. Funakoshi Gichin was one of the main proponents of this (under Itosu Anko) even said the following: “Hoping to see Karate included in the physical education taught in our public schools, I revised the kata to make them as simple as possible. Times change, the world changes, and obviously the martial arts must change too. The Karate that high school students practice today is not the same Karate that was practiced even as recently as ten years ago, and it is a long way indeed from the Karate I learned when I was a child in Okinawa.” Not only does Funakoshi state clearly that he changed the martial arts that were currently being taught as compared to about 10 years ago, but there is a clear implication (that I think may folks often overlook) there as an even earlier change in the martial arts from what he (Funakoshi) learned as a child...or further back in history. Consider also the quote from Mabuni Kenwa: "As up to now [1938] karate has only partly been introduced in Tōkyō, people who exercise karate in Tōkyō believe that it solely consists of atemi (punching) and kicking techniques. When talking about gyaku-waza and nage-waza they assume that these only exist in jūjutsu and jūdō. This way of thinking is exceedingly counterproductive with respect to karate itself and can only possibly be attributed to a lack of knowledge. In any case, with respect to the propagation of karate-dō it is exceedingly disappointing that only a small part of the entirety of karate had been introduced in Tōkyō. To those who have the future of karate-dō in mind I recommend to under no circumstances narrow-mindedly hold on to the “nutshell” of a style and a school, but rather to synthetically explore karate as a whole. We can see that even in 1938 (with just a couple of decades of real exposure in Japan), "karate" had changed such that it was thought of and primarily taught as a punching and kicking art only. Thus loosing a large part of the whole of the original art and being a changed art from what it originally started as. So, can we say that there are "secrets" that were not being taught at this time? Sure. Look at the pre-1900 situation. No real formal classes or schools that were open to the public...with only a small handful of students being taught at a time. So, technically, a level of secrecy there. Then, as those that were working to make "karate" more mainstream to the public, even they say that what was taught "back in the day" was very different than what they themselves learned (reference the quote above). So, at least in technical terms, there was a level of secrecy there because the art being publicly taught was different than what it was originally or at least in the historical past. In general, consider the following quote from Soken Hohan from about 1978: "There are many secrets in karate that people will never know and will never understand. These ideas are really not secret if you train in Okinawa under a good teacher. You will see the teacher use these so called secret techniques over and over again until they will become common knowledge to you. Others will look at it and marvel that it is an advanced or secret technique to them. That is because they do not have good teachers or their teachers have not researched their respective styles." The above is a deep, deep statement. According to Soken, there are "secrets" in karate. But, he does indicate that these secrets are not secrets since you can see them displayed (and by inference, not necessarily taught or explained publicly) by a good and qualified instructor. This reminds me of the fact that Yamada Haruyoshi (9th dan, Hanshi) had a scroll on the wall of his dojo that said: “The esoteric principles of karate are found within basic technique” This idea goes back to the discussion we had here on the forum about the terminology of kata and, in particular, kakushi (隠し or kakushite/kakushidi)...that which is hidden or obscured even though it is clearly shown or evidenced (in the kata). And even the concept of "nanjiru gokuden"...that is the secrets learned by yourself and understood through great trial and effort. So, again, secrets or hidden/obscured aspects to what was being taught? Yes, but not so much in the way modern and/or Western students may think of it. More hidden in plain sight and/or hidden in the sense that you have to personally uncover what is there (i.e. what is being shown to you by a qualified teacher but not specifically being taught explicitly) by means of you continued hard work, training, exploration and learning. Lastly, look at how the koryu (古流 - old school or traditional) martial arts in Japan were taught. There is a great and interesting (as well as expensive) book by Maki Isaka Morinaga with the title "Secrecy in Japanese Arts: 'Secret Transmission' as a Mode of Knowledge". Secrecy was very much a means of teaching. Such teaching utilized hiden (秘伝 - secret writings) and this was very often in the form of densho (伝書 - a scroll or some form of a "book" that was handed down generation to generation and was considered to be a "book of secrets"). They also used kuden (口伝 - oral instruction) and that too was "secret" as what was taught verbally to one student or deshi was not necessarily taught to others. All of this was a part of the menkyo (免許) licensing system (as opposed to the dan/kyu ranking system used by modern of gendai budo (現代武道). So, if two people trained for 25 years (just as an example) in a koryu art and one of them attained the rank (or license) of menkyo kaiden (免許皆伝 - a license of "total transmission" - the highest level of rank that one can receive), then he will have learned all of the true "secrets" of the art that were not taught to anyone else...including those that had trained for the same amount of time. Just as a side note, there could have been (and were) more than one single person that received a menkyo kaiden in a given ryuha or school of koryu budo. The point here being that, yes...there were secrets that were taught to some and not to others (for a variety of different reasons). Jeez...I am rambling here more than I usually do! LOL! Bottom line is, in my opinion, there are secrets in the martial arts. And, in particular, there are secrets within the Okinawan martial arts ("karate") that were not taught to the Japanese (or anyone else for that matter). The art in Okinawa was changed to make it acceptable to the educational system (of Japan and Okinawa) and the mainland population of Japan (given the socio-political environment of the time). So, it was not "appropriated" as was originally asked. The issue is that you have to define, really, what kind of secret you are asking and looking for as there are several. There are things that became "secret" because they were left out as the art changed. There are things that are "secret" because even though they are clearly visible in what you are shown, you are expected to figure them out yourself. Additionally, there are also things that are "secret" because your instructor never learned them or learned them correctly (for a number of possible reasons). Sorry to have rambled so much. Hopefully someone will find benefit from all of the above.

I have to say, I very much like the idea of being able to do the kata backwards...especially in the teaching role. Folks tend to "know" the kata, but not really KNOW the kata. I am sure that probably does not make sense... I have found that people will learn the rote movements, but not really learn the "flow" or what is really happening in the kata. By way of example, back when I was in school, we might have to memorize a poem or a part of the poem and then, usually, be able to recite it back to the class. So, people might learn the poem and be able to say the words but they didn't understand what was being said and why, the inflection was missing, etc. I find the same to be true with kata. They learn the muscle memory of the kata and can do movement 1 to "X" from beginning to end. When you can do it backwards, it helps to understand some of the principles that are being taught and the "flow" that is (hopefully) being done. All in all, I have found this to be a great teaching tool.

To better help frame the most appropriate response, can you tell me what CK is (I am assuming some sort of TV show since you mention "season 2"...but you know what they say about assumptions...) and who Chozen and Dan are? Thanks.

Thanks for the response! At the outset, let me say (for the sake of bushido_man96 and anyone else reading this), my comments and questions below are not ment in any way to necessarily disagree with or question what he (bushido_man96) has said. I like to ask questions...because questions (and the resulting answers) helps me better understand. Sometimes, when I question things, people will think I am in disagreement with them or what they have said. Not necessarily always the case... When you say that you don't delve too much into form or kata applications, does that also mean that you don't do much work with individual katas themselves? Or does that mean that you have katas and you do them, but you don't do much work on the application side? I ask the question above because it initially reminds me of my Shotokan days. In class, after bowing in and doing our warmups, we would then begin to work on various techniques. Whatever the sensei that night want to do (and based on the skill level of the class). After a bit, we would work on kata. Randomly we would have a bit of bunkai (incorrectly used...it was really oyo). So at this level, there was a little bit of a connection from the kata to the techniques we had been working on. But, the most importance was placed on the performance and look of the kata. Then, on most nights, we would finish up with sparring (free sparring with pads...jiyu-kumite - 自由組手). What was interesting was that when we were doing the free sparring, it really did not at all resemble the techniques we were doing in the basics. The kicks were probably the closest match. But, the punching was much different. Hands held different. The actual punch itself was delivered different...as was the starting point of the punch as virtually everyone was in some form of "Western boxing stance". For a long time, I just really wondered why there were, essentially, three (3) different categories of work and none of them really crossed over much to the other or built upon each other. So, after my long story, I am just curious to know if you do work kata and don't do much or any work on the applications or oyo from the kata then why do the kata? Again, assuming this is the case (you do kata, but not applications of or from the kata), what value do you find from the kata? When you refer to not using Japanese terminology, I can understand that from the point of it being confusing to some...especially for beginners. But, do you (as an instructor) find any benefit from it? I find that actually understanding the actual translation of the Japanese names and/or terms helps me to understand what the earlier generations and founders ment as opposed to how it is viewed today (like uke being a block). The Japanese (and Chinese) are well known for "hiding things in plain site". Alot can be "hidden" in the words and names given to things. Additionally, alot can be lost when an interpretation or translation of something is incorrect or only partially correct. Again, thanks for your comments! As before, I look forward to your response when you get a chance.

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated. I am assuming (?) that with the wink there that you already know the answer to the question you ask...but gedan barai is an interesting point to discuss. Maybe others might find it interesting... So, gedan bari (下段払い) translates to lower level (gedan) sweep or sweeping motion (bari). Could it be a "block" of some kind? Sure, I guess it could. But, in going by the translation of the name? Not necessarily. It's also interesting to note that the same general movement is also called gedan ude uke (下段腕受け or 下段腕受ける - sorry, I am rusty). So, in this case it is a lower level arm receiver. Would folks consider this to be the same as the lower level sweep of gedan barai? I don't know for sure. Certainly, gedan barai could just be a description of the movement itself (which is another can of worms to open). But I don't necessarily think that it is. I could most certainly see two totally distinct categories of techniques here. As an interesting side note to this from my aikijutsu days and ashi bari (足払い). This is commonly translated as "foot sweep". And, technically (based on the translation) correct. BUT...it can also mean leg sweep. When training with a very high ranking shihan in aikijutsu, he explained to the class to not just get caught up in ashi barai being soley a "foot" sweep as it could be any part of our foot OR leg used to unbalance and/or take down an opponent. It can also be used as an irimi (入り身) or entering technique. He then told us to go play with this...and I have been doing so now for a number of years. Interesting thought though...

Thanks for the comments! Much appreciated... Just curious, is this along the lines of what you teach and use or something different? Thanks again!