Sailor Sindbad

One of the benefits of the move to my current dojo. The last one tracked attendance, as there were minimum hours requirements for promotion to each rank. Didn't have the hours to test for the upcoming cycle? You'll have to wait for the next. This means that students are showing up when they don't want to be there, or even when they really shouldn't be there (i.e., sickness, injuries, etc). I even had to schedule family time around my attendance, which was causing problems with my wife at home. Doesn't really leave much room for "wanting" to show up. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about that anymore where I currently train. Every time I go, it's because I want to be there.

ISKF has nine kyu ranks. If you look at the Shotokan associations that have Taikyoku Shodan, they have 10. The Shorin-ryu dojo that I left has 13 kyu ranks. One of those kyu ranks learns the first three Taikyokus, and the next rank learns the other two. So that's two kyu ranks. My last dojo doesn't charge tuition to yudansha, so there's that. Even with that not being the case at every dojo, people leaving after shodan is common enough for someone so inclined to have plans in place to squeeze as much $$$ as possible from it. Same embusen as the Heians, only it's block-punch on the ends, and three punches down the middle? Then it's Taikyoku. Other than maybe for small children's classes, I'm not seeing how someone can be smart enough to learn Taikyoku Shodan but not yet smart enough for Heian Shodan.

They fall short of kihon. Taikyokus and Heians follow the same embusen. Other than the hammer fist (which is learned in literally 1.5 seconds), the only differences between Taikyoku Shodan and Heian Shodan are the shuto ukes and age ukes (both of which are part of white belt kihon anyway). Valuable to kanchos, yes. Taikyokus add more kyu ranks, which means means roughly three more months worth of tuition money and testing fees per kyu rank. Cha ching! That's a slippery slope. As I said before, Heian Shodan covers what's in the white belt kihons. Bassai Dai and Kanku Dai are more advanced than that, which is why the slippery slope doesn't work. Bear this in mind: Taikyokus were developed by Gigo Funakoshi, which means that they were intended for Shotokan. Why they're in Shorin-ryu Shorinkan, I have no clue, except that somebody simply thought it was a good idea to take them on. ISKF and SKIF have been doing fine for a long time without Taikyokus, and JKA only does one - so there is a consensus out there on whether or not they're a necessary part of the curriculum.

I'm kind of curious as to how this would work for Naha-te. Uechi-ryu is classified as Naha-te, but my understanding is that Kanbun Uechi learned everything he knew in China, and not from any Naha-te masters in Okinawa. So I'm curious as to whether or not they even have the same katas.

So here's what I've seen. My dojo is ISKF, and we don't do the Taikyokus. We start immediately with Heian Shodan. My understanding is that this is also the case with SKIF, and JKA only has Taikyoku Shodan. The Shorin-ryu dojo that I left has five Taikyokus (I hear some places have more), though, my understanding is that beyond Nidan, the Taikyoku katas are totally different between associations. Personally? I think Taikyokus are a waste. Everything in the Taikyoku series is captured in the Pinan/Heian series. With the exception of the hammer fist (which is easy to learn) all moves in Heian Shodan are part of white belt kihon in Shotokan, so I don't see the point in Taikyokus.

Ah, you know what? I thought Goju-ryu practiced Pinans, because I've seen videos of Rika Usami performing them. Did a little diggging, and found out that she also practices Shito-ryu, so it all makes sense now.

You must be speaking of Goju-ryu. In Kobyashi Shorin-ryu, if you say "kihon katas," you'd be referring to the three first katas of the style that were developed by Chosin Chibana (i.e., Kihon Ippon, Kihon Ippon, and Kihon Sanbon). Seisan wasn't taught by Shugoro Nazakato, so the Shorin-ryu of his lineage (Shorinkan and its offshoots) isn't learned there (I personally think it should be added, but I left at 6th kyu, so my opinion doesn't matter). My understanding of Sanchin is that it's more of a Naha-te thing. Personally, I would say there are only two: Naihanchi/Tekki and Pinan/Heian. They're the only katas practiced by ALL Okinawan and Japanese styles of karate. Even Tang Soo Do / Soo Bakh Do practice them, with different names.

And this can be an issue at times. Because they're not always going to replace it when it needs to be replaced. In all likelihood, someone who purchases something low quality to save a few bucks is also likely to delay replacing it when the time comes, since both are miserly acts (this is life in general, not just martial arts). Bear in mind, I'm not saying that everyone should have to purchase a Japanese brand gi (though I'd encourage it if they're willing to spend the extra dollar), but there are decent ones that can be had in the $75 to $100 price range.

Not wanting to be confrontational here but can i ask why? The quality of someone's gi (in my opinion at least) has no bearing at all upon their skills. Martial arts is an expensive activity so i don't see why you would want to price people out by almost making them use a pricey gi? I know that wherever i have trained they would much rather you turned up and trained in an old gi than didn't train at all - for me the decision to pay the greater fees for training more often vs an expensive gi is a no brainer. I am probably being slightly hypocritical here as i just ordered myself a new Hirota karate gi which wasn't cheap and i use quite expensive bjj gi's too but i have never really looked at someone else's gi other than wondering what one they had as it looked a decent fit and they look the same size as me etc! Can i ask what would be wrong with the black belt being in a cheap gi? Doesn't the colour of the belt show their dedication and commitment to the art? Again i hope this doesn't come across as confrontational, i am genuinely curious as it is an opinion that i haven't heard before and it might be a line of thought i am oblivious too and a gap in my own knowledge! I'm retired military, so I have a thing about uniforms. To me, the higher the rank, the more important it is that you set the standard for appearance. And if someone of lower rank wants to step up, then it should be encouraged. Again, it's the military in me.

I moved from a dojo that gives free gis to new students to one that requires students to purchase their own. I like the latter policy better. The free gis given at the former are of obvious low quality and don't look very good. In my estimation, I'd assume that the intent of those free gis being issued is to get a student started immediately to give them time to purchase their own later, but it doesn't always work out like that. I've seen people make it all the way up to shodan with the free uniform, but not too long after, they purchase one that's higher quality (I'm assuming they were probably told to by the kancho). I like the idea of students being required to purchase their gis from the beginning, because it requires them to compare gis and make selections based on those comparisons - i.e., they're more likely to select ones that are of higher quality. I'd much rather see a white belt in an expensive gi than a black belt in a cheap one.

IF I ever get into BJJ, it won't be until after I get my karate black belt, but I do intend to start judo by the end of this summer. I think it would be easier for me to disregard belts if I've already got a black belt (or two) from elsewhere.

When doing some dojo shopping in the area, I've seen a few dojos that allow you to wear whatever color you want. I know of a hapkido dojang (I personally have no interest in hapkido, by the way) that has various colors and combinations of colors of dobok, but everyone is required to a wear a specific color or color combination depending on rank and day of the week. This is the way I'd want it to be in a karate dojo, if it had different colored gis. To me, students in a dojo wearing "whatever they want" gives the appearance of being disorganized - which affects my perception of the martial arts training itself. I don't get that same impression with BJJ, since the allowance of individualism with BJJ gis is known the world over as being an integral part of BJJ culture. Both at the Shorin-ryu dojo that I've moved on from and at the Shotokan dojo that I now train at, it's fully white gis for everyone. I'm not a fan of fully black gis but, if it were an option for me, I wouldn't mind mixing the colors (i.e., top black, bottom white; or vice versa). All other colors, be they red, blue, whatever - to me, only look good if mixed with black or white. I'm only speaking of karate gis, not judo or BJJ.

I wouldn't know. I simply saw that they required this on their website. I believe it's a fairly new place, having only opened up within the past five years or so.

I can't see this as holding anymore weight than a psychology or criminal justice degree. Let's take criminal justice: I've heard many younger people talk about getting a criminal justice degree because they want to be a police officer. But most police departments require no college degree at all, and the ones that do don't care what your major is in. That frees up the young lad to get a degree in something else, so that he can spread his eggs across two baskets instead of putting them all into one. And that's what I'm looking at with a degree in martial arts. It doesn't give you qualifications that are not obtained in the dojo. And what would a shihan need with such a degree? There is a potential problem that these degrees could cause: just like the same jobs that high school dropouts were doing in the 1970's now require college degrees, some associations/federations may start requiring these hypothetical martial arts degrees for shihan licensure, certain dan grades, etc.

So I've got two responses to this, first in speaking solely for myself, and the other in general. Speaking for myself I believe that every straight masculine man (and by that, I don't mean anything toxic; I just mean a typical guy who's into guy stuff. Even a nerd who's into anime qualifies) likes martial arts and wants to practice at least one. What man doesn't want to "kick butt," or at least know how to effectively do so? There's a reason I started martial arts so late in my life (at the age of 40): I have three degrees. A bachelor's, a master's, and an associate's (the order in which I got them, the associate's is in a major unrelated to the other two degrees). I promised my wife that I'd give her the rest of my GI Bill, so that she could use it to earn degrees herself. My dream of earning a doctorate? Gone. So what can I do instead? The thing I believe it's in every man to want to do: martial arts. So now, I'll always be in pursuit of SOMETHING. And that's how I like it. The fact that there are dan grades beyond my life expectancy ensures this. Speaking in general In the three years and some change that I've been at the dojo that I'm now leaving, here's what I've noticed: - People making black belt, and no longer showing up - People making black belt, and coming far less often - Random black belts that I've never seen or met before, who decide to randomly show up, and whom I've never seen again after that. My point is this: no matter how much you drill it into people that "black belt is not the end, it's only the beginning," there are more people too many that don't believe this. That's why I worry about the effects that eliminating dan grades might have. Because even among those that stick around after getting their black belt, how many might not by eliminating grades? I personally would love to learn Gojushiho and all those those other advanced kata that are normally taught at sandan or higher. But then there are the higher grades that are awarded based on your contribution to the art. I don't "need" my master's degree, as the job I've been working in for over a decade only requires a bachelor's. But I was really ecstatic when I got my master's, because of that sense of accomplishment and achievement. So that could be a motivator as well. If I won the lottery jackpot, and no longer needed to work, you can bet that I'd be working on my doctorate.

I'm interested in BJJ. I really am. I want to get my black belt in karate first, and I'm also looking to start Judo real soon. I'm looking to have that "triple threat" of eight-point striking, stand-up grappling, and ground grappling. However, of the two USJA schools in my area, I've only visited one. On the USJA website, it says there's supposed to be testing. But the one I've visited doesn't appear to have them. The instructor simply promotes you when he feels you deserve it. So what am I doing? Heading right on over to the other dojo soon to see if they test at regular intervals. And if they do, then that's where I'm going. I freely admit that I'm a bit socially awkward and may therefore not be able to draw enough of the instructor's attention to myself for whatever I'm doing to be noticed and rewarded. I'm also hearing horror stories in BJJ about people who are doing everything correctly and are performing better than others that got promoted, but the reason they were passed over was because of their "attitude" or some other nonsense like that. So then, I suppose I need to figure out the funk I need to start faking in order to get promoted. ...yeah, I don't have time for any of that mess. The only way I'd do BJJ is if a school exists that doesn't have belt ranks AT ALL.

I disagree. I think the abolition of higher dan ranks doesn't mean that black belt isn't the beginning. Just because there are no more trail markers doesn't mean that there isn't a trail to walk. I suppose that if you're of the metaphysical mind, think in abstracts, etc... it's easy to look at it this way. However, for those who think strictly in the empirical (like myself), this is rather difficult. The great thing about starting martial arts at a later age is that there are dan grades that I will NEVER reach. I don't know what those grades are, because I don't know when my time on this Earth is up. But what I do know is that when I die, I'll die when I'm short of that next grade that I had yet to make. I can't imagine merely simply making "black belt" with nothing after that, and not being of the mind that "this is it." I'll say this: I'm making the move from Shorin-ryu to Shotokan. Shotokan (at least ISKF, don't know about others) does not use dan bars. There's no indicator of grade or tier on the belts of ISKF yudansha. Shorin-ryu - at least Kobyashi under the Nakazato lineage - doesn't either, but does use the shogo belts for 6th dan and above, and a design that runs the length of the belt for 3rd and 4th dan. I agree wholly with ISKF's stance on this. The only thing others need to know is that you're a black belt, and nothing more. But let the grades still be there.

I absolutely agree! We never called anyone "master" in my late Sensei's dojo, or the organization we were a part of, and in the dojo I was part of prior to that, I was taught that the term "master" was only used posthumously. I realize that some of the Japanese titles used in martial arts can be translated to "master," but if you break down the roots of the terms, that isn't really what they mean. Personally, I'm not calling ANYONE "master." Maybe I'll the call the guy at the KFC drive-thru "master," because at least he's giving me biscuits. No, but seriously, I'm not calling anyone that. If the term was at least modified somehow, then I'd take less of an issue with this.

Not sure if it's already been stated, but the issue I would take with this is the fact that it has always been preached that "black belt is not the end; it's only the beginning." If you get rid of dan ranks, then that adage is no longer true. Black belt, indeed, becomes the end.

In doing my shopping around, I did stumble across a Tang Soo Do dojang in my area that also has BJJ. They require you to get a blue belt in BJJ in order to get a black belt in TSD. To their credit, though, they tell you this up front instead of having you find out after you've invested so much time.

My apologies for taking so long to respond, but here's my update: Trying my best to not dox myself or the dojo, but I'm retired military and someone old enough to my parent - and a parent to hypothetically significantly older siblings - made Shodan not too long ago. But because certain parts of the test were waived due it not being physically possible for him to complete them, his black belt has certain markings/designs on it to indicate that. For the run, not every class. They're sprints up and jogs up and down the mat, but not a long distance run. We're advised to run on our own time. For pushups? Yes. Every single class. Minimum of 25 during at the start of class, but odds are that there's more throughout the rest of the class as well. And that's just part of the calisthenic workout. There's also situps, flutter kicks, creative variations of those, among other things. And that's EXACTLY what I finally decided to do. It was a tough decision for me, as I was more than half-way up the kyu ranks (6th out of 13), but something happened back in January that happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back for me: The dojo was open on the MLK holiday, so students showed up. The most senior instructor present at the time (#2 behind the kancho) was upset that we showed up. Apparently, we ruined those hopes of being home and relaxing that day. The punishment? A whole class of nothing but push up (and variant) exercise. Fortunately, I suppose the instructor got bored with that after a half hour, and we did some actual training. I haven't showed up since then. I felt like that instructor's emotional punching bag or some kind of tool for personal amusement. Despite the fact that I'm the one paying them, not the other way around. The cool thing? I found a Shotokan dojo, and I'm signing up tomorrow. I've already signed my oldest daughter up there a month ago. I spoke with the kancho there when I was signing my daughter up, and told him that I'd be following soon. He asked me about prior martial arts background, which explained to him, i.e., style, kyu rank, the katas I know, etc. He said that I'd be able to keep my rank (which, I'm not sure what that means, because there are only 9 kyu ranks in ISKF and the corresponding katas are learned at different ranks - but I'm grateful, regardless, as I had no expectations of starting higher than white belt). Maybe for Rangers or SEALs or something, but not the conventional troops. I'm retired military myself, and I had never experienced anything like I did on that test before. Thankfully, I'm never doing it again. The other cool thing about the Shotokan dojo that I'm going to? There doesn't appear to be a kobudo requirement to advance in karate there. At the Shorin-ryu dojo I was at, you have to be a brown belt in kobudo in order get a black belt in karate. And that's additional separate class one day a week after a normal karate class. Truth be told, I don't hate kobudo, it's having to stay an hour later when I just want to go home. And at the rate at which I was skipping kobudo classes, I wouldn't have been a brown belt in it by the time I would have otherwise been eligible for a black belt in karate anyway. I'd have been WAY behind. Based on my readings, Chosin Chibana himself never practiced kobudo. So anyone else in Shorin-ryu having to makes no sense. If kobudo was part of regular karate class and was included in the karate belt curriculum, I'd have absolutely zero gripes. And speaking of curriculums: in comparing it to the Shotokan curriculum, the Shorin-ryu curriculum is pretty huge. Two wire-bound books for 13th through 1st kyu. Whereas for ISKF, 9th kyu through 1st dan, it's only a four-page pdf file. By the way, I'm very thankful for KF, as I was able to start this thread and get the information I needed to do what I had to do. Were it not for you all, I probably would have quit karate all together, as I would have simply believed that all dojos were like that.

For the lower kyu ranks, it's three hours, beginning with 100 pushups. For the upper kyu ranks, it's 8 hours of hell. It starts with 45 minutes worth of calisthenics, then a 5 mile run which includes sprints. There's knuckle pushups on the asphalt, and kumite, and then going through the entire curriculum up to the rank you're testing for, with more calisthenics spread throughout the test. The black belt test is this, plus requires 500 pushups. After going through my first test for the upper kyu ranks, I'm second-guessing whether or not I want to ever do that again. I'm doing some research, and I'm finding that not all dojos are like this. But I want to hear directly from people out there.

For "self defense or fighting," it depends on how immediate the need is. If it's a kid who is getting physically bullied at school, or anyone else getting physically assaulted on a regular basis for that matter, I'm only going to recommend boxing. No other martial art but boxing. For anyone who wants to learn "self defense or fighting" for "just in case" purposes, then karate actually enters the debate. Actually, i might disagree here from personal experience, though i think things have changed over time. I first started karate at 5 for that very reason (without going into too much detail i was picked on a lot due to being mixed race). Started mid 80s in the UK and trained 4 times a wk almost from the get go. I actually found it very useful self defence wise when a kid: i could throw a punch with a decent amount of power and generally handle myself reasonably. Over time (and a lot of fights) i began to be targeted a lot less. For context, before i started i would always lose - in particular this one kid always stepped in and gave me a kicking. About 3mths after starting karate i broke his nose with a punch and he never tried again. At the time i was also tiny: i didn't grow til my mid teens really so i was always a small kid I do know though that things might have changed a lot now and karate might not be as good self defence art for kids anymore, based on how it is currently taught. Just my 10p worth Yeah, but I didn't see you mention anything about experience with boxing. Walk into you nearest boxing gym, and just watch a whole session. You'll see the difference immediately. IME, karate training hasn't changed. I finally became "fully matriculated" later in life, but did some dojo-hopping as a child and into my teens in the 80's and 90's. If there are differences, I haven't seen any. With boxing, things like speed, accuracy, stamina, power, etc are trained on DAY ONE. Also, maybe with the exceptions of styles like Kyokushin or MMA focused karare, karate is generally all point-matches - nothing where a KO is the main objective. That's why most traditional karateka thought Karate Combat was so innovative - most have never seen anything like it. I don't know your situation, but I imagine that the people for whom karate would have "immediate" benefits would be those who've never thrown a punch before. Because at least they'll come out doing something they've never done before. But for the kids who have thrown their share of punches, with less than desirable results; karate will be of little benefit to them in the short run. Now, the kind of training that the Karate Combat fighters go though: if karate dojos in general adopted that, then we'd probably be looking at something with benefits as immediate as those obtained from boxing.

For "self defense or fighting," it depends on how immediate the need is. If it's a kid who is getting physically bullied at school, or anyone else getting physically assaulted on a regular basis for that matter, I'm only going to recommend boxing. No other martial art but boxing. For anyone who wants to learn "self defense or fighting" for "just in case" purposes, then karate actually enters the debate.

If it had any occult origins, why would it matter? If there's any rules on this form against discussing religion, we're probably already in violation of that - so I'll accept any warning that comes my way because of this. I'm atheist, so it only stands to reason that I wouldn't care. BUT... doesn't the same apply to you if you're Christian? Did Jesus' victory over sin on the cross not free you from the need to worry about this, so that you can focus on fulfilling the Law via the Two Greatest Commandments?