paolung

well first off, "Shaolin kungfu" isn't necessarily "one system", but rather refers to a slew of systems that came either from or were strongly influenced by the original Shaolin temples in China. so there really isn't any "shaolin kungfu" system by itself, but the term comprises a ton of different systems. some of them are animal-based, some aren't. some are "northern shaolin" (hailing primarily from north China), some "southern" (obviously from the southern area). i would say just about any shaolin system i've come in contact with or that is commonly practiced will get you into shape, provided you train hard. whether or not it is good for self defense depends also on training, but not necessarily how 'hard' you train, at least in the sense of physical effort, but more how you train as in how realistically you practice, spar, train for fighting, etc. there are alot of systems out there, and the vast majority of them will work for fighting if you have a good sifu and train diligently. i guess it would help more if we knew what sort of specific systems you were looking for... do you have any examples? the truly chinese shaolin systems don't have belts persay, although some may have sashes. grading or ranking belts were primarily brought in when the systems reached the west, so there could be some legit systems in the west that use belt/grade rankings, but they are not inherant to chinese systems persay. as far as "what you can reach"... well, a good system offers a lifetime journey of training... you will never reach the end, because the system is always expanding and developing. as my sifu (teacher) is fond of saying, "it all depends on how deep into the rabbit hole you want to go". as you get better, good gungfu gets harder. as you get more proficient, it gets more challenging. it grows with you. hope that helps

firstly we should probably apologize to loco for hijacking his thread i think practically all cma history "is clouded in mystery and legend", as pvwingchun says. every system has it's own legends about founding, but many of the southern styles were developed on the famous opera boats (which is one of the explanations why many southern systems tend to be more "shorthand" and the footwork is not as expansive). one thing is fairly certain- wing chun probably was designed to be streamlined and fairly quick to learn and used. i have heard people say "all forms of (chinese) martial arts evolve from shaolin" but i certainly don't agree with it. this completely discounts the emei and wudang systems, as well as shuai chiao (which most certainly predates the shaolin systems) and a few other more obscure systems which neither resemble nor owe their roots to shaolin systems. however, i think it can be reasonably said that the majority of systems in china were either influenced by or directly descended from the shaolin systems.

i agree with rb. the idea that 'wing chun was created to defeat shaolin styles' doesn't really make a whole lot of sense when you put it to the test. i have always heard that wing chun's roots were in shaolin systems, especially crane... i've never seen anyone show otherwise, although i am open to debate this. it is more likely that wing chun was created as a system into itself that could be used to fight other systems (as most good systems can), but not necessarily "the style to defeat shaolin". many systems make this claim "we were designed to beat other systems!" but few can back it up. they all try to, with various arguments and logic, but really... think about it. to create a system with the sole purpose of beating other systems, doesn't that essentially prove the other systems' superiority in the end? if you have to create a full system to specifically counter another one? not to mention it would be quite narrow in thinking if it was developed for that specific purpose. wing chun is an effective system to itself, but it is not the end-all be-all system. wing chun practicioners get their arses handed to them just like everyone else sometimes. it's not some 'super system'.

generally speaking, folks who make martial arts movies can't fight, and the few that can don't use real (read: fighting) martial arts on screen because they don't look pretty and flashy like "movie" martial arts do. there are a few exceptions.

http://www.fitnessheaven.com/v2/article.asp?fldContent=28114&fldSection=2& http://www.pakmeikungfu.com/

there is a sifu around my area of texas who teaches martial arts from vietnam... http://www.salongcuong.org/

well to be honest 95% (at least) of the taiji you see on average is NOT real effective and the folks who do it don't have the slightest idea how to use it in a combat scenario.

ahh, but did they do KM for 50+ years? considering it is a relatively new system, i doubt it. i have personally seen gungfu stylists who have trained over 60+ years and some of them look BETTER with age. it's scary.

well be aware that "wing chun do" is essentially combining two languages to describe a system... "wing chun/ving tsun" = "beautiful springtime" or "forever spring", etc.... "do" = "way". it is a bit awkward in my opinion to have this arrangement, it would be like saying "gungfu-do" or karate kuen"..just doesn't mix.

there are supposedly several "drunken" styles and forms; many times they are offshoots of an original system (i.e. you have mantis, and then there is drunken mantis, etc) but i think there are some systems that claim original drunken stuff...

hmm i could have sworn i saw some info about lau gar kuen in the UK... lemme see... http://www.stafford-lau-gar.co.uk/ http://www.laugar-kungfu.com/ http://www.mackf.com/main.html http://floti.bell.ac.uk/bell2002/schools/kungfu.htm http://www.lau-gar.co.uk/meminfo.cfm none of the above are anywhere near you?

knives, baseball bats, "buddies" of your opponent that you didn't see before, etc...

GM of what system(s)? what are you looking to learn?

check your PM please...

this is kind of a loaded question... both can be used for self defense. neither is 'better'. an accomplished gungfu practicioner will be able to fight just as an accomplished krav maga practioner will.

umm... what's GKR?!?

Hi Chelle, Let me first start out by saying your size will not be a factor regarding whether or not you will be proficient at martial arts in general...although it could affect your proficiency in specific arts. what i mean by this is, certain arts or systems will cater to the larger, more built person..some will cater to the person who is smaller in stature. from what i've seen in your post, you would like to acquire some measure of martial proficiency (skill) and be able to use what you've learned in self-defense... be aware that in order to acquire these skills (AND have them usable in a real situation) you WILL be involved in some violent encounters and training. there's just no way around it... you can't dance around and do forms training and look pretty all day and actually learn to fight from it (by itself). this doesn't mean forms training isn't useful, just that it's not going to do much by itself. one question- are you just wanting to learn how to fight effectively and have fighting skill? are you wanting something more (perhaps some philosophy and a complete system)? are you wanting this to be a lifelong journey of self-discovery and cultivation or basically just want to kick some hiney in a short amount of time? there's nothing necessarily wrong with either path i presented, just throwing some ideas out there..trying to get an idea of what you're after here... as my sifu (teacher) likes to say, "the rabbit hole can get pretty deep"

i guess that depends on how you look at it... for me, a black belt level requires maturity in addition to skill level, and most places allow or even expect a BB to assist in teaching. i don't know how well a 12 year old would be able to relate to teaching a skill to a 50 year old woman... i imagine it would be pretty difficult for both involved. this doesn't mean it can't be done, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule out there... but i personally have a difficult time seeing that working.

to me, a black belt is one who has learned the basics and developed to the point where SHe can now move on to the more advanced concepts of their system. the black belt is not the end of the journey, but the beginning, so to speak. an analogy to me would be , the lower belt ranks could be grade school thru high school... the black belt would be the collegiate levels. in my opinion, someone of black belt level should be able to teach the basics to others, if their sifu/sensei feels it appropriate. age IN AND OF ITSELF should not be the primary consideration, although maturity level should be.

yes, you foolish mortal... had you known the ATTACKPROOF methods of combat, you could have used the kick of Master Ik Jo Kang.

hahah... those exact names weren't mentioned, but the second paragraph actually talks about them under "about" http://www.attackproof.com/about.htm looks like i was mistaken, his FATHER was the purported one who could punch holes in refridgerators, according to the page.

ok. i'm not sure i understand what you're saying here. you said are you saying you would grab the wrist holding the knife with your opposite hand? where does the knife hand strike come in? same hand? different hand? your post is confusing!

here are a few links to 7 star mantis history. be aware that the specifics of the histories may vary from kwoon to kwoon, but i know that they all trace their lineage back to wong long... http://www.mantiskungfu.com/HistoryofPrayingMantisKungfu.htm http://www.mantiskungfu.bravepages.com/history.htm http://www.kungfuonline.com/info/web/mantis.html perhaps mantiswarrior could tell you more about it than i could, though

in addition to what wcnavstar posted, many systems or schools will have their own "salute" which may symbolize many things...

mixing languages is one of the "red flags" i look for in whatever ultimate system is trying to make a quick buck this month... that being said, i couldn't even make it that far. after i read about the car lifting uncle and uncle ironfist, i closed the web page. that was enough for me.