Mark B

Hi Pers, I write this post with all due respect, but you seem to have an obsession with syllabus and grade. Kusanku, Passai etc are only "brown belt kata " if that's how a particular syllabus is structured. In Wado for example Passai is often a kata for Nidan. A student could learn Kusanku rather than the Pinan, and spend 3-4 years doing it. That is, in fact, the way it was done in the old days. As it happens, Naihanchi was often the first form learned, although Seisan was also the first form learned. Syllabus was, and is, a modern creation

Hi DaveB, you're absolutely right. If a person chooses to learn all the kata they possibly can, then practice elaborate Bunkai to karate style attacks then that is their business, and I certainly have no right to tell people how to train. However, , there is loads of documented info that directs us towards the preferred approach to centreing our training around kata. I do concede that there are many ways to train, and many reasons too, and I guess each is as valid as the next, but if we enter a dojo, practice karate around deep study of a few kata as a GENUINE system for self defence then I personally think it can be a little bit dangerous if we're not able to be honest with ourselves (and our students), if that's not your goal then that is, of course perfectly fine

Nothing. As I've said on numerous occasions kata are systems in, and of themselves. You don't learn the Pinan series as a precursor to learning Kusanku. You don't learn Passai and Seisan to feed into Chinto. you don't learn Naihanchi to feed into Seisan. you don't learn Jion, or any other form as a means of learning basics (which has been suggested elsewhere on this forum). The kata existed long before style or syllabus and should be seen as the physical recording of the main preferences, principles and ideas of the fighting style of the person (s) to which that particular kata relates. As I think I demonstrated on the Jion thread what we're talking about here is practicing a given kata, Kusanku in this conversation, to a level of unconscious competence that will take years of diligent study. Learning the form itself is easy! The hard (but fun) part is extracting the information, creating drills for all the possibilities -all the striking options, takedowns and throws, pushing, sticking and trapping exercises, seizing, joint attacks and locks, targeting vulnerable areas- then you have to drill problem solving, what ifs etc and that list is long !!! You're then gonna need to raise the level of all these drills, applications and exercises to a point where they're fit for actual combat of the most serious nature. Learning a kata, then motoring through a set of Bunkai exercises with a fairly compliant partner is not "knowing" a kata. We're all on this path, which is long and demanding. I think it would be made much easier if people can understand what is meant by "studying "a kata all the best.

My daughter is 12, and has been training with me since the age of 9. I have no problem at all, in fact my niece and nephew also train in my junior class. All three are doing great, better than that in fact, they're three of my standout students. On the day of this post my daughter graded to junior 2nd kyu . Her grading was of the highest order (and my junior syllabus is tough). One thing I would say, I almost expect more from her then the others, although I do try and treat all the students equally. I enjoy teaching her, and look forward to the future training when she's old enough to move into my senior class.

REGAIN LOST INITIATIVE. What do I mean by that ? I don't personally apply kata as a pre-emptive system. In a proper, civilian confrontation the aim should be to deliver YOUR preferred impact option (for me, Shotai Uchi ). In the first instance we don't try to batter with kata. We use our primary impact weapons at this stage. The applications of kata become relevant /appropriate when , for whatever reason, initiative is lost. Maybe your technique wasn't as effective as intended, the opponent covered, maybe he flinched to spoil, there are lots of "what ifs ". If the opponent re engages there's a strong chance the range will descend into grappling. Yes, kata can teach takedowns, limb destruction but it's primary purpose is to REGAIN LOST INITIATIVE, to once again create an opportunity to deliver your primary impact options if possible. Of course you may have to deliver impact using other striking options but the principle is the same - get back to striking ASAP. I personally think there is too much emphasis on trying to lock , takedown etc. Greater emphasis should be placed on striking options. Fighting for real you want the initiative, lose it - you want it back, in the simplest, most efficient and most direct method possible

Seisan is a significant form. There's strong evidence of lineage to Fujian White Crane and it's the only form on Okinawa that can be find in Shuri, Naha and Tomari lineages. I myself use the Seisan katas as the core for my training, there are many different versions,each a variation on what would have been the original form of Fujian crane Gung Fu. The variations, options , preferences and personalities of each given form gives the karateka an almost infinite number of training options and subtle variations, whilst essentially practicing only "one" kata

Some nice ideas there Leigh, different to my applications for the opening few motions, which is as it should be. I don't spend much time with recordings as I find it takes up training time, however , if I can find the opportunity I'll maybe try and get the sequence in question recorded to share on here ( if the interest is there)

In my dojo Naihanchi forms the core of our training. The only other form(s) we study are the Seisan kata (s), which are heavy with all the key points I personally think are required for real world self protection. Students are permitted to ask to learn a different form after Shodan

I think it's worth remembering that Tsuki, whether Oi or Gyaku denotes thrust, not punch, as Uke is to receive, not block. Gyakuzuki Tsukkommi can be reverse descending /downward thrust. With this in mind it may be possible to consider the opening motion (discounting Yoi) as a technique to destroy posture at close quarter grappling range. Examples - seize opponents right arm with your left from the outside and pull inwards as in the Kata, this compromises the opponents posture, right hand seize and grip hair/face/throat /clothing, drop weight and thrust in a descending motion . locate opponents head and draw down to "Yoi ". Drop weight and wrench the head using the opening motion. Obviously a very dangerous option !! With left hand/arm secure opponents head to your chest/ left shoulder, drop into stance applying descending thrust into appropriate vulnerable target - temple, Corotid sinus, base of skull, collar bone, base of the ear, eye socket - clearly there's lots of options. I think the key is PRINCIPLES, rather than fixating on a technique. The opening of Wanshu, in my opinion, deals with close quarter grappling , the motion we're discussing teaches a solid principle for that scenario. The motions that complete the opening sequence expand on this idea - in my opinion

Hi Lupin, Respect to you. I'll offer a few observations of my own, however, Sensei8 has already mentioned that anything that contradicts what your own Sensei is teaching should be handled with care. I believe the key elements that might improve the "performance " are breathing in conjunction with the relevant motion, and a lowering of your Tanden. Re breathing - take the Chudan Uke as an example - we breathe through the nose on preparation and exhale sharply on application. This aides power, focus, timing. It also creates the energy which makes Hikite far more dynamic.The exhalation can be done quietly, it's not necessary to make lots of noise. Re Tanden - this element works in harmony with breathing, but also allows your various movements to remain grounded. This doesn't mean lowering stances , it's about dropping your internal energy - on watching your video you look very "high/raised", the connection between your lower and upper half seems a little divorced, which is not uncommon by any means - you can often see people new to the rank even of Shodan doing the same. I would also slow down your combos until you can apply the above points, allow the power to run its course before moving to the next technique. As I mentioned - if any of that contradicts what you're being taught please feel free to ignore it completely All the best Mark

In the first place the lessons taught in the Jion kata are, in my opinion , no different to the lessons taught by any other form. This would seem obvious to me, as kata are the training syllabus for the habitual acts of physical violence. As we know , any approach to kata should be a personal thing (once you have sufficient knowledge, both mental and physical ), so this would be MY approach to Jion. I like to have an application for the Yoi position - for Jion I imagine closing distance immediately upon losing the pre-engagement initiative (pre-emptive strike). I locate the back of the opponents head/neck to deliver short rising punches - so the first lesson/ strategy teaches how to regain lost initiative , and a good option for which technique to apply once there. The Gedan Barai /Chudan Uke with weight dropping back section is in my approach the follow up to the initial regaining of initiative. In my approach this sequence teaches the clearing of limb obstruction to break posture/ set up locking &limb destruction ideas. The 45° section teaches the redirecting of energy - manipulating to both the inside & outside of the combative engagement. The kata Jion offers preferred application options. On the inside destroy posture to facilitate a takedown using Ushiro Geri in combination with the first Oi -Zuki. On the outside (preferred) we apply a stamping kick to blow out the knee joint to set up a shoulder lock option. This sequence then teaches the strategy of redirecting energy and the specific techniques of takedowns, and set ups for a simple locking option. The kata moves onto the Age - Uke ,Gyaku/Oi -Zuki sequences. My approach considers the fight distance has now shortened. For the sake of practice we say the opponent has seized the lapel. Simple response - smash into the face with Age -Uke/Tsuki. The Gyaku or Oi Zuki which follows actually links to the first turn into Manji Uke. In smashing Age - Uke to the opponents face he drops his head and attempts to stifle the techniques (a predictable response ). On FEELING this the kata instructs us to gain control of the opponents head and turn 180°. This will greatly disrupt his posture. We brace into back stance in response to the opponents aggressive energy. The Manji Uke is applied to rake/wrench the head/face, before the weight shift to deliver a strike with the inside forearm as the opponents head rises from the wrenching technique. This sequence teaches many strategies- control the head, shifting/rotating to break posture, wrenching techniques to open up further impact options. The kata moves onto the Gedan Barai /Shotai Uchi sequence. This expands on the clearing or redirecting of energy to deliver devastating palm heel strikes. A similar sequence is repeated later in the form, this time with Tettsui strikes. Some versions include a knee/stamping option which is sensible - applying the Ashi Waza will break the opponent down which renders Shotai inappropriate - the Tettsui however is ideal. Here we have Jion teaching the correct impact option. The second Manji Uke which shifts into Morote Uke in attention stance teaches another use for Manji Uke. Opponent attacks - we lean away (back stance) and flinch to cover (Manji Uke preparation ) , recieving the opponents technique. We immediately deliver a Gedan Barai descending hammer fist strike, then instantly pass the opponents received limb to shift ourself to the outside of the combative engagement. We press the opponents limb to affect is posture by moving into attention stance, this leaves us perfectly placed to strike with an uppercut strike (Morote uke ). So this sequence teaches how to recieve and pass energy, how to disadvantage the opponents posture. Moving into the attention stance with double Gedan Barai allows us to draw the opponents head down, and onto the knee strike with Gedan Juji Uke. The sequence of low block, shift back into double Gedan Barai teaches two things - what to do if the opponent forces your head down, and what to do if you force your opponents head down and he attempts to tackle your legs. The double Chudan Uke -Shotai - Age Uke - Tettsui sequence considers the option of wedging/disrupting the opponent at source, by closing and disrupting his shoulder movement (Chudan Uke ). The opponent then gives striking , covering and redirecting options , all contained within Shotai -Age uke -Tettsui. The Chudan Uke Oi - Zuki at 90°teaches us to get offline on receipt of energy. It also teaches how to break a wrist grab, which can then flow nicely into a limb destruction or locking option. The kata teaches the quick shifting offline , whilst simultaneously disrupting posture. I've mentioned the Gedan Barai -Tettsui sequence already so we move onto the final sequence. The version I practice it's an arcing palm heel in combination with Empi with the other hand, which extends into a hammer fist strike. The final sequence deals with dire situations. The other lessons have either failed or are inappropriate. The opponent is at extreme close quarters, grappling and has the initiative. The final sequence teaches how to create space through a raking Shotai to create enough of a flinch to deliver Empi. This creates more space which allows the hand that delivered Shotai to trap both of the opponents arms, from here we can strike with the Tettsui. If possible you also endeavour to create an angle (90° in the kata ) to enhance the advantage you've created. The lesson taught in the final sequence is how to create space in the most desperate circumstance, and then take immediate and significant advantage. From there any one of the scenarios described can transpire, the kata will have taught you well as to how to handle whichever eventuality occurs. This list is by no means exhaustive and each option should fluidly blend to another as required, without the hindrance of concious thought. When I taught this seminar last summer it was over two parts. The first included pad exercises to drill many of the close quarter impact options. We had two person sets which would inform the Bunkai which was to come. We then looked at my applications, as described. The second seminar brought it all together. "What ifs", likely outcomes, possible failures, personal preferences. The session finished with unscripted Tegumi, based on habitual acts of physical violence. I think the people who came really began to understand why in the old days it was common practice to only study two or three kata. To take all those exercises for Jion, drill them all to unconscious competence, then practice all the "what ifs" and variation possibilities to the same level would be a lifetimes work indeed !!! I hope that helps to illustrate what I feel Jion can teach, albeit in words, which is difficult ,and apologies for the very long post.

Whilst not one of the kata which I teach as part of my syllabus it is one which I have taught during a two part seminar just last summer. Jion is , without question , an excellent system for civilian self defence which teaches key strategies, principles and technique options. Great kata

I think we need to dispense with the idea of "style". We then need to understand what we mean by "sparring". My dojo is focused only on karate for the aim of self protection , this enables our training to have specific and tailored training methods. "Sparring " is always scenario based. We do wear headguards and MMA type gloves but kumite is at full contact. In the regular dojo sparring is confused. Many dojo claim to practice karate for "the street" , yet kumite is always at kicking range , with the in - out dynamic seen in sporting bouts. Kumite should be an extension of the training drills practiced in 2 person exercises, the aim being not to "win" , but to learn and appreciate the speed and unpredictability, and therefore develop the capabilites demonstrated in more sterile drills , but with the added spice of not knowing what's coming AND with the knowledge that you WILL get hit - hard !! This should be the aim of kumite if sport based arts are not the aim - and certainly in my opinion if you're "street orientated" and not engaging in short kumite sets at decent impact then you are leaving yourself sorely under prepared !!

Just thought I'd add another point to consider regarding what is "practical " regarding karate practice. A popular fad these days is for "practical" drills to be far too long. They "look" good as the opponent responds (as directed) to create a drill that allows a chosen sequence to be fully completed. I feel this approach is flawed !! Anyone who has ever had the misfortune to experience real violence will tell you fights/physical confrontations just don't happen that way (unfortunately ). The speed of the altercation is many times quicker and of course not working to a script. We see many examples these days that look simple, brutal and effective. First of all nothing is simple in a real fight , and anything more than your most basic and efficient option will even come close to being so. The next thing I would ask people to carefully consider is how often Uke responds naturally , rather than freezing in position until his script tells him to move. It's this compliance that makes the sequence look "simple and practical". I realise there are always safety issues but I do feel karate of the "practical" type tend to hide behind that fact. I rarely watch Bunkai demonstrations but if I do and it contains more than three elements maximum then I take it with a pinch of salt as it would be virtually impossible against an opponent who can handle themselves. "Practical" is simple , well drilled techniques designed to end a situation in as few a techniques as possible

"It is said that if one was to only do Naihanchi Shodan, and only that their life wouldn't be a wasted effort ! " Absolutely agree 100% Without wanting to keep repeating what I've said on other posts that's exactly what I do. Naihanchi and Seisan are the only forms on my syllabus. I do practice various versions of Seisan, this allows me to consider the differing preferences illustrated in the different versions - which then gives me info on which I can base new training drills - each drill will contain a technique, principal and strategy, which then can feed back as Bunkai ideas - once the Bunkai is learned we feed that back into the various drill types to see how the principles etc can be applied to drills other than the one that spawned it. In my opinion this type of deeper, older approach adds strength to the concept of practicing only a couple of kata, as the time it takes is significant, and besides all the drills possible we haven't even talked about pressure testing Apologies if I've rather veered off the original subject of Kakie etc, l find it impossible to speak of such drills in isolation, without considering the " how and why" , and how they link to every other exercise practiced in the dojo

Thanks for clearing that up, great points made again. I agree 100% that the emphasis is always on training. I do use kata as the syllabus template for my training though. It's well documented that in the old days karateka would practice only 2 or 3 kata that suited them. I believe this was based on the strategies as well as the techniques, which is what I basically do. It was suggested to me that I should do lots of recordings etc. I've decided against it - there's too much sharing of stuff that isn't fully understood on YouTube etc. Another reason I don't record is because it interferes with the actual training, which , at the end of day it's the reason I'm at the dojo - rather than trying to make a name for myself with superficial presentations. You've explained the link between technique and various drills really well, I'm gonna have to use that explanation myself , it was very well put.

Was that a rant ? I thought you made some good points. I don't know if your "rant" was aimed at me but to be honest the points you made were ones that fit into my way of thinking. The only difference is I view the kata as the "syllabus ". I study very few kata in depth which means I'm forced to dig deep , but it also means I don't get technique overload, which is a serious problem if you're talking actual violent altercation ! The techniques are demonstrated in the kata alongside the strategies and principles. If/when I'm fighting in self defence I'm not "fighting with kata" - as you suggest, that approach is flawed. I am however utilising the techniques and best/most appropriate option which I learned from my information/ training pool - the kata. Any technique can "work", it can also fail. My techniques and strategies are drilled with the combination of pad work and head guard protected scenario kumite. It's this that confirms the need for well drilled techniques , kept simple. Aside from knocking out complete strangers to test technique that's the best we have - allied to experience of real violence which helps in keeping the drills honest. That's the way I do things

Hi all Tuidi certainly blends nicely with Kakie , as it should - they compliment each other . I can't agree with the "Bunkai moves" - and believe me I've had enough live experience "on tbe street". I've also had a good few years of Bunkai practice and study which did indeed begin, like most novices at kata application , with learning moves for each element of the form. I agree there are specific examples in kata, locks / takedowns for example , that could be viewed as "moves that work" but the majority of the applications of kata are delivered in response to the energy received through punches, pushing and shoving before a type of grappling is undertaken, this is the nature of violence with its unpredictability and constant shifting of energy and intent. If the assailant doesn't know what he's gonna do then how can I know. So I set up for a left push and right punch and- and he grabs and head butts me. My approach allows me to not worry about what he might do as it's all the same to me - energy. The response WILL BE a "move" from kata I study (in great depth), however it's intuitive and instinctive, NOT a predetermined move for specifics. As I've written elsewhere , at my seminars I always invite one of the guys in attendance to instigate a random attack, with as good an energy as safety will allow - there's no way I'd do that if my best hope was to second guess the attack For me the practice of Kakie - Te and the other drills that compliment it completely reinvigorated the Bunkai of kata which I'd spent many years practicing, whilst always feeling something was "missing" , based on my "real" experiences. A good thread this one

I can't speak about "sparring" because I don't do it, even my juniors don't spar in the popular sense, for example they are allowed to grab, and force their opponent into corners in the dojo, or against the wall. If a student finds themselves in that situation it's up to them to figure it out and get themselves into a better situation. Their knowledge of Naihanchi ( the only form my juniors learn) gives them simple options to help them witn this, so they are applying Bunkai Oyho , but only in conjunction with the drills they practice to protect their centre or their basic Kakie work. The adults "sparring" is random scenario based. Head guards are worn to allow the level of attack aggression and response that resembles actual self defence . Bunkai we learn from Seisan and Naihanchi is extremely useful in these drills but only in close relationship with the entry, tactile and Sabaki exercises we practice alongside our kata application ideas. I love Bunkai. I love studying my kata and figuring how they can be used in the real world, how I might have used them years ago in the altercations upon which I base my approaches. The trick is how to learn some applications to a decent level of competence and then have the courage to accept and understand that in that context those applications are in fact useless , and that the time has come to really begin to understand your kata - to discard the idea of an application for this , and one for that , and to start to "feel" the correct Oyho dependent on the energy being received. In time you find the original applications you learned are in fact worthwhile, just not in the context or method in which you originally practiced them. It is very difficult to describe the process in words , I know , but Bunkai as seen in the very popular media is in my view virtually impossible to apply against a genuine aggressor whose looking to knock you down.

The resources mentioned are decent examples, however, over the years I've come to regard "Bunkai moves" as fundamentally flawed. In short - you can't fight that way in aself defence situation. My advice would be to certainly look at some of these resources but rather keep them at arms length and understand them as what they are - fun presentations on what you "could do". As I've stated a few times I have serious issues these days with the "moves for this or that " trend. If anyone demonstrates an application from kata that has more than three elements then I would say take it with a pinch of salt as real fights cannot be mapped out that way. Learn your kata, consider the possibilities, strategies and principles the kata is teaching then work lots of pushing hands, sticking hands, drills to control your centreline, husband & wife hand exercises, drills to recieve straight and hooking energy on the inside and outside and KEEP IT SIMPLE. By following this approach you may find that the kata "finds" you, rather than you trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

I use Kakie frequently in my dojo, exercises driven by various push hand options are present on my syllabus from the first level. As I've been studying Naihanchi for many years I began to consider the similarities between some of the principles demonstrated in the kata and the Wing Chun system in particular , which places great emphasis on close quarter tactile exercises. A couple of years ago I invited a very pragmatic Wing Chun instructor to teach a session of his core principles at my dojo which confirmed the close link between Naihanchi and Southern Chinese methods, it also highlighted the value of push hands in their various guises. I'd been using kakie for some time before the Wing Chun session , particularly as a way of shortening the range at seminars (people who are unused to close quarters unwittingly revert to a range with which they are comfortable ) but since the Wing Chun session I use the training aide more and more. Kakie is an excellent medium for teaching the student timing , and how energy "feels", all in a sterile drill based setting. Kakie then allows the student to freely understand how the Bunkai of kata should be correctly viewed, understood and applied - I strongly disagree with this popular, saturating market of "moves for this" and "moves for that". Kakie allows a more intuitive approach to karate, less robotic and "pre arranged". The final stage of kakie is through proper role play with an aggressive Uke to then learn where Kakie fits into violence in the "real world". Kakie is an invaluable training aide

Lol. Ok , so your point is?

Apology not necessary I started in Wado. I and another student left due to dissatisfaction with the karate being taught. We started our own club and evolved from there. That was a good few years ago. I teach karate for close quarter altercation, and because it's based on actual experience I feel I have a good base from which to visualise the type of Bunkai Oyho that will TRULY be applicable against the real deal, which is why I decided nearly 8 years ago that the deeper study of one kata was the way to go. It works for me

An awkward scenario. 1:1 might be the way to go if you feel that your instructor can take you to the level you wish to achieve. However , maybe your instructor feels unable to take you to the level, both in rank and competence that you desire. What's his rank and level of competence? It needs to be said that at brown belt you are gaining competence , but practicing by yourself should be done with eyes open. At brown belt (and Shodan certainly ) much is still unknown or still to learn. These are the subtleties , the nuances if you like that make karate what it is. "Doing" Naihanchi Shodan is not understanding, that comes later. Is your instructor working to that level , if not you might get your belt through 1:1 but that's simply a piece of material. Maybe as you train you might want to pay close attention to "what" is being taught , and whether it ticks the boxes for you. If you do decide to change instructor in future I wish you well , as you seem to have a strong desire to practice your karate and that's a commendable attitude All the best

Hi Kusotare, thanks for asking. If I had a pound for every time I've answered that question! Short answer - I have no style, I practice karate. In the old days there were no "styles", they came later, it was Te or Di. My Naihanchi is fairly standard Okinawan in practice. My Seisan is similar to Wado Seishan, however I have changed the Ippon Ken sequence to open hands more reminiscent of Naha Te. I changed the Maegeri which follows Soto Uke - double Tsuki to Sokuto Geri. The final sequence of my kata is Mikazukigeri - Ottoshi Tettsui - Mawashi Uke rather than Gyakuzuki - double Ottoshi Taisho I'm not bound by association or politics. I train with my small group of students and everything is based on functionality, which I find serves us well.