Punchdrunk

The Thaiboing is strong with this one!

I have seen the Renzo tape. Also one of Ryan Gracie where an opponent is mounted and tries to bite him so Ryan headbutts and bites the guy back from the mount. The Gracies have a few of these scary home movies. It isn't wrong to rake the eyes or bite or any thing else in a life or death situation but learning some sweeps when mounted or a knee and elbow escape to guard are battle tested techniques that will put you in a better position to inflict pain and suffering or even better run away.

Always look at your belt while being thrown and landing. It generally keeps your head in the right position to avoid a secondary concussive landing - ala boxers whose heads bounce off the canvas. NEVER straighten your arm to brace your fall - unless you WANT a hyperextended elbow. When presented with the choice of being swept or keeping your ankle planted while the rest of your body is completely off balnaced - let yourself be swept - your ankle will thank for not spending six months with multiple screws holding it together. If you can get behind the idea that a throw is just a short rollercoaster ride with a bumpy landing - you can actually start to enjoy it - in a knuckledragging kind of way.

I think there is truth to both the major theories in this thread. The original format UFC's no time limit did favor the patient style of the Gracies. However, you cannot seriously compare the submission grappling ability of most of those competitors with the population of today's UFC. Some of the older fighters looked amazed by sleeve chokes, armbars and triangles from the guard. Today's fighters would see those setups coming a mile away. I also agree that the general fighting populations' increased facility at striking and groundwork has made the clinch the critical range in deciding a fight which is why Judoka and grecco roman practitioners are achieving a high level of success lately.

It is strange how fast these generalizations gain popularity. Shonie Carter, Karo Parysian, Hidehiko Yoshido, Nakamura and from the early days of No Holds Barred fighting one of the US Shidokan Shihan Matsumoto - all are outstanding on the ground in MMA and all have Judo as their base for groundfighting.

Thanks I'll check them out. Basic is what I am going for.

Pricey? Try $200.00 per book and extremely limited availablity. The videos cost approximatley $45.00 a piece and contain only one kata. I have never seen his videos on an auction site. Thanks for the suggestion for the suggestion. They are obviously top of the line books and vids but I think I am looking for a much more basic back up resource. Is anyone familiar with Don Warener's Goju Ryu books? I think they are a little more my price range but since I can't actually look at them I can't tell what their kata content is like.

I have looked for those and you are right about them being "hard to find" better put - PRICEY! Anything a little more main stream like BEST KARATE? Or is Goju Ryu just very closed about this sort of thing?

Sakuraba probably stole moves form Donkey Kong. The only reason there would be a hiccup in the Aikido connection is that most committed Aikidoka would find it hypocrytical to participate in an MMA match. Doesn't mean he didn't study it, just that he probably wasn't too into it.

Is there a clear Goju ryu kata reference available ala "Best Karate" for Shotokan? No book or video will ever replace a fine instructor but it sure helps as a reference between classes when you are just learning basic movement. We are primarily a fighting dojo so kata is not always as emphasized as a slow learner like me might require to gain proficiency.

AGREED - from the ground up has caught the correct!

Ya know the point isn't so much that the styles are better but that the way they are trained favors the ring or competitive styles because Martial training cannot be effectively instilled without hard continuous contact under stressful conditions. Time and again the "too deadly for the ring" techniques really aren't that useful because you can't employ them full out or even at 75% because they are "too deadly". Techniques be they grappling or striking are not employed in a vacuum. They have to be useful during the give and take of a conflict. Many of the "Iron Palm" "Iron Groin" "Iron etc." techniques do in fact work under conditions that allow for focus but practitioners who demonstrated these techniques were crushed when they went into the ring against MT fighters and I find it hard to believe that their failure was due to their inability to employ any of the afore mentioned "against the rules" techniques. The fights were not even close. A gun is a very powerful weapon but in the hands of someone without combat training it can prove more deadly for the person using it than the person who is the target. Regular practical application is essential.

Yeah, but it is a flawed argument. Those tactics are available to both combatants. Unless someone actually trains in administering these attacks under live conditions they don't constitute and advantage for either style. That was the whole point of the post.

Outstanding - There's something to be proud of the rest of your days.

Treebranch, it is not that I'm focusing on that aspect by choice, it's just that every time this sort of comparison comes up between these styles - biting and eye gouging are brought up as techniques that separate the MMA fighter from the Combat Martial Artist with almost comic regularity. These two techniques are obviously NOT the measure of Kung Fu or any traditional MA style and yet the advocates of those styles never fail to bring them up. Hence the snide attitude of my previous post.

Jason Delucia - a Wing Chun fighter is 32-19-1 in Mixed Martial Arts competition. I don't think I have ever seen him use a trapping technique or anything that doesn't look like the standard MMA blend of striking and grappling but he does claim to have learned his skills in kung fu. Another case of the school and the fighter not the style. WC doesn't catch any more flack than any other MA that makes the ridiculous "technique too deadly for the street but not effective in the ring" claim that is a red flag that something is rotten in the state of MA Denmark. It is such a notorious response that it is the subject of ridicule in MMA circles.

He is doing you a favor. Maybe he should be done a favor in return. A slipped shot to the groin and elbow to the face. Accidents happen. My rougher partners tend to be more careful after a dose of their own medicine. Plus it will help him expand his ego. If it escalates, talk to your sensei. If he likes things this way then the decision is up to you.

Fist of Legend is my favorite MA movie - specifically because it is an anti bigotry anti style superiority movie. Jet li - is consistently thoughtful and wise in the resposnes he gives to the public. He was supposed to star in "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" but had promised his wife he would stay with her during her pregnancy. The pregnancy and the shoot conflicted. He still honored his promise though it forced him to miss a chance at taking his career to another level. One reason wushu is so popular in LA is that it is what many of the top fight choreographers from Hong Kong use to stage their fights. When in Rome do what the Romans do.

Hohan - you have hit on the key point - consistent hard sparring is what keeps that adrenal gland from overflowing. Like any stressful situation the more you approximate it and learn to operate effectively under it's contraints the better you will perform when it arrives. Train hard / fight easy

What is the deal with biting and eye-gouging? Is there some way to train for this that I am unaware of? If you are close enough to me to do it to me then I can do it back. Are there some Kung fu schools where they actually bite and gouge each other in sparring? Ugly blind students. Otherwise it is just more theory. As Dr. Doom used to say "Bah you fools!". As for UFC fighters not going into kill each other - it sure doesn't look like point sparring. If you want to fight against weapons - spar against somebody who has weapons (assuming you want to survive try a rubber knife or a paint gun) who is actually trying to get you. You will find out if your training works or not. If you want to see how you will do against multiple opponents - spar against multiple opponents. That is the real strength of good MA training - sparring hard and live against partners you can trust under a trainer who is wise and teaches good technique. These are the trademarks of BJJ, sambo, boxing, MT, wrestling, Kyokushin, Enshin, Shidokan, San Shou and advanced judo. That's why these are styles that keep winning in competition AND on the street.

sansousser is most correct. Gene laBelle was one of the pioneers of mixed martial arts in America. He wasn't allowed to throw punches in that match BUT just the fact that he had been trained to slip, block and was not afraid of being hit put him way ahead of a judoka who had only trained in that art. Just knowing how a boxer typical moves to set up punches was a big advantage for Gene. A boxer with a strong background in wrestling - Laverne Clark a pro boxer who has defeated many BJJ fighters and wrestlers by knockout comes to mind - would have a similar tactical advantage over a pure Judoka. If neither fighter has a clue about the others style it really comes down to who is "on" that day and who gets in with a strong punch or throw first. The boxer isn't familiar with being taken off his feet and the Judoka isn't familiar with actually being smacked in the face. Because the boxer is used to the clinch being a place of realtive safety the likelihood is higher that he will commit the error of staying in a target throwing position earlier than he will land a stunning blow.

The elbow in the back of the neck move is highly overated as a defense against BJJ/wrestling. If you are in a stationary clinch it is fine but against a grappler who is taking a shot for a takedown, the momentum is against you. Frequently one or both feet aren't even on the ground. It is pretty hard to generate much power in that situation, even if you are just being forced to lean away from your target. There are plenty of examples of this from the early days of Vale Tudo and even the first few UFC's when style contrasts were more drastic. Prodigal, specifically why do you find Wing chun works better for you than MT?

Thanks prodigal - fighter not style again.

Here is the difference between most BJJ and most Judo shools (NOTE THAT I SAID MOST FOR BOTH) In BJJ you will roll hard and live in sparring from your first or shortly thereafter class. In Judo you tend to spend a long time just practicing technique. I came from a boxing background and I have to say that the live sparring of BJJ really made me feel like I was at a boxing style gym.

Most of the old Japanese karate masters were black belts in Judo before they took up Karate. MAS OYAMA is one example of this.