delta1

Anybody here do, or know anything about, Okinawa-te? I'm looking at a school that does this style as part of their carriculum. I knew someone a long time ago that did this, and as I recall it is a very hard system. What kind of stances and footwork do they do? I seem to remember their stances being a little low, but not too much. I also remember something like a T stance. But I could be wrong since it was so long ago. I havn't seen this school do Karate yet. They also do Manoas System Kali/Arnis, and that is what we did tonight.

My base is American Kenpo, and I work out regularly with some TKD folks. What has been said so far is basically true. Most kicks go to the opponents base, some to the mid section, very very few higher than that. AK is a ballanced style, having both hard and soft moves. The hard is similar to TKD in some ways. But AK practitioners have a much better grasp on principles, a LOT les wasted moves, and a WHOLE LOT more flow. Not to say TKD doesn't work- the group I work out with is combat oriented and does a lot of things similar to Kenpo. They also put soft moves in their system with Modern Arnis. But where they fall prey is when I get in close. AK fights at all ranges. Arnis and TKD are primarily long range. AK also does a lot of stand up grappling, and a lot of the principles transfer directly to the ground. Sadly, when he died, Mr. Parker was working on the ground aspect of Kenpo and had not completed it. So most AK schools use other systems for ground fighting and the student transfers the principles from the standup game into the ground system. Ak also works on control of and movement in dimensions, setting up your opponent and working off his reactions, and a lot of angles. A TKD background is a good thing to take into American Kenpo, if that is the style you are looking at.

MA, it can be used like a short staff very effectively. Also if you choke it up a little it could be used with Arnis type strikes. There are probably a lot of ways to effectively use it. But you are probably right that most people would use it like a baseball bat.

TKD is hard, though the basics of soft are there if you train them. But it is primarily hard. Some of the TKD schools in my area also train in PMA to get the soft moves.

It keeps him off the streets! Seriously, taching discipline and self respect, and respect for others... . I can see his point. My vote is for other, as in all that and a lot more.

That's more an individual thing than a style thing. I used to work out with a group that spared with no pads or protection and in street clothes, and we did contact. But it was not the mythical "full contact." We used less force to the head than the body, and certainly pulled the potentially crippling or harmful shots. There may be some out there that train hard bare knucle strikes to the head and face, but I've never met any. Sounds pretty gruesome to me.

One guy at work told me that if someone had a bat, "all that karate wouldn't mean ****!" I simply told him that if I was ever assaulted by someone with a bat, I'd rather know what I know than what he doesn't.

Assuming you mean that he swings it like a basebal bat, get inside as soon as he chambers for the swing and jam. If he's alreadystarted the swing when you get in, target the elbow with a hard block and start to work immediately/simultaneously with your other hand, feet, knees, etc so he can't recover and strike again. Destroy the man and control the weapon. If he's already started the swing, move back and away at @45' to get outside the arc of the swing. Immediately move in and check the return swing or jam his spin, depending on what he does. Then go to work. If he uses it more like a weapon than a sporting tool, you'll have to defend it like a weapons assault- however your style does this.

I did not vote, as I don't see the point. Yup. You are wrong on both counts. AK doesn't do a lot of high kicks, most are to the base. And we do 'full' contact. In fact, in my school, you won't get your black without it.

They do make mouthguards that distribute and absorb some of the shock better. That may help with strikes to the mandible. And good headgear will help some also. Most sparing is done with light or no contact, especially for begginers. But a good school that trains for reality based arts will sometimes spar heavier contact. 'Full' contact is a misnomer, so I wouldn't let the term put you off. But check the prospective schools policy on sparing and find one that suits you. I can tell you that most schools don't want lawsuits, and most instructors know their students have to lead normal lives when they leave, so they won't do anything to harm or endanger you. But some do train more intensely than others.

Yes I'm surprised! Only a couple of us? If you count TKO's and chokes, and lights out too, I've been out a few times. Unfortunately, the last one to get me was my brother, so I may never live it down. Got nailed by a spinning backfist and, I'm told, went straight into freefall!

You talked about " training in a hard external style that is physically rigorous and competitive with a lot ofcontact and practical applications." I'd advise looking at styles that are ballanced, that have both hard and soft. Hard and soft moves develope different muscle groups, as well as adding a whole lot more practical options to your defense or offense. Soft is actually more dynamic as well, but the combination is awesome. And if you really want to get in shape, and are seriouse about practical self defense, look for a school that also teaches grappling. #1: question: 'Do you spar?' #2: 'Do you sometimes spar with contact?' #3: If they grapple, do they spar with the option to go to the ground. Ask if they seperate the childrens class from the adults (ref your other post). They should. If classes are large, do they have enough assistant instructors. Ask him to demonstrate some of his self defense techniques on you. Ask yourself, would this work? Would it work under force on a resisting opponent! Would he be willing to demonstrate it that way? A good one to do this with is a rear bear hug, arms pinned. I've seen a lot of really bogus approaches to this attack. Don't grab him 'dojo style'. Slam him, pin the arms, and either drive him into something, pick him up, or turn him on his head. Much of the time you can politely sympathize with his excuses and look elsewhere. (Edit: note that under force from an unpredictavle opponent, he may not do the technique exactly as it was shown to you in the ideal phase. This is ok- in fact it is a really good thing as this is the type of spontaneity and flexability you want to train towards. Techniques are not just rote responses to a particular attack, they are training tools.) That brings up the next question, do they drill their self defenses up to street force (starting with a by the numbers aproach on a compliant opponent at first, but then working up the level of force and resistance as you get better). Watch some classes, most will let you step in and try out a couple. See how the students move. Is there a marked difference in the junior and senior students? Do they look like robots, or do they flow from one move to the next. Another thing to look for is respect. They don't necessarily have to do it like the military, but there should be a general atmosphere of respect that goes both ways and at all levels. The really good instructors will interview you as well, and admission to their school is not an automatic pay and come play proposition. Those are rare, but if you come across one I'd give them seriouse consideration. This is not to say anything negative about those that don't take this approach. Remember that they are running a business and have to pay the bills, and may not have the luxury of turning away students except in extreme cases. And there are variations on this theme, such as having extra sessions for the really dedicated students. If you could let us know what is available in your area there are probably some practicioners in those arts here that could give you some specifics to look for in those specific styles. There are a lot of good styles and schools out there, but there are a lot of bogus ones too. At least you have the good sense to ask around. Good luck!

Sansoouser, you talked about being "cross legged." There are a lot of possible reasons for this. One is as a foot maneuver. You can cross over step forward or back, front or rear to adjust distance and angle to your opponent. There are also several types of twist stances. Some can give extremely good stability in one direction, though the trade off is instability in more directions than most stances. A full twist stance is a very powerful and deceptive stance, though inherently more unstable compared to other stances due to its narrow base. On the other hand, it isn't as unstable as you might think. You can torque into and out of the twist and simultaneously attack in many directions. You can move to several direction changes from it in order to maneuver. And, if done correctly, half a crossover is a twist, which can be used as a deception. And as others have said here, the stances themselves can be used as weapons. The twist can be used to attack his base, rolling up on his knee. It is tricky, as you are in close with a verry narrow stance. But I've seen it done. It is one of the things I've been working on and it is really giving me fits. But if I can get it down I figure it will be worth the effort.

Jerry, Quote #1: " "A fighting horse stance ..." Conversely, I see it a lot in upriht grappling or as a transition when movign weight for leg to leg." I think we are in agreement here. I could have said that better as I don't use it much as a primary fighting stance. It is a good transitional stance, which I alluded to. The term better could have been btter said another way as well- maybe a more solid stance, or one with better allignment for power. But clearly in my example the horse would be, for the moment, the better stance. And you are correct about its use in upright grappling. Again, in my example, one common continuation of that technique is to grasp the weapon arm with the front hand and roll into an arm bar as you step into a stronger stance with correct allignment. I've seen this in several styles, including my own. Good call. Quote#3: This did not concern one of my posts, but I'll comment on it. I agree with you here. I don't know about all arts, but in the CMA's I've been exposed to these are all very effective fighting stances. They are also used to build strength, especially of the small muscles close to the bones. But they are a lot like punching a heavy bag in this respect. You do it to build speed, power, technique, etc. The same strike is just as effective on an opponent.

Hard to say since you only gave one stance, the Horse. A fighting horse stance is, in my experience, very seldom used. When it is its' purpose is usually to position you to evade something while positioning you to immediately move into a better stance. An example in Kenpo would be applying a high cross block to an overhead club attack. A neutral bow or forward bow would put your body in line with the attack so that the club could hit you if he looses control and it swings down. A horse angles you just enough that the weapon will miss you, and you can immediately roll into any number of attacks or stances. With more traditional Chinese arts, and particularly with internal arts, it is difficult to explain their stance and footwork. Most do not use a 50/50 weight distribution except in transition. And they are allways in motion. They consider arts like Karate and Kenpo to be static, even though all the Kenpo/Kempo styles I've seen are extremely dynamic and flowing. But we all stop our motion at some point to initiate another motion. Arts like Taiji never stop moving. One move doesn't just lead to the next, the next is begun before the last completes. (This is a bad way to say it, but...) They sort of roll from one stance to the next. They yeild, stick, redirect, and for the most part allow or help you destroy yourself (though they can be offensive if necessary). They never stop their motion, and to accomplish this they must continually move from weighting one foot to the other, and you see that in their stances. Most people watching a Taiji form can't immagine what about half of the moves could do. But every move has an infinite number of applications in combat. I don't know if that helped or not. If this confused you, you can allways go back and read Jerry Love's post, which is a simpler way to say all this. But I hope I shed a little light on the question.

That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. Sorry for the confusion. Regards, Bart the Lover Bart, no apologies necessary. Those scenarios and motives I listed are from events I know happened first hand, or from first hand accounts, so it isn't a * topic. I've beeen in the back of EV's with more than one demented person, including druggies, severe head injuries, and just plain crazy people. I can tell you it ain't a lot of fun. But a car seat would be an even worse scenario. Good topic.

We agree on that point. But statements like "Keep in mind that although not explicity stated, either you or the other person is driving the car, which is probrably moving", indicate that the moving car scenario was what you were debating. Nothing to debate here, since that is agreed by everyone so far that is a no win situation. Now that's just silly. I was using extreme sarcasm to demonstrate how absurd your suggestion to simply ignore the motion of the car. I never said to ignore the motion of the car. You assumed it was in motion, I said the likely scenario for this encounter woul be a stationary car. "half decent defense" being something like putting your free hand up in front of your face to minimize the amount of damage the other guy can do while you decelerate. "Contrary to popular belief," it is not difficult to remove the keys from the ignition when you are driving. Here I am simply arguing this scenario on your terms, with the car in motion. My point is that you will not, while under seriouse attack, be able to safely bring the vehicle to a stop, remove the keys and exit. My guess is that you'd have trouble just finding the door handle in a stationary car, let alone accomplish all that. Never had siblings apparently. Ever done a leg press? Planting your back against the door and your legs against the other guy is the approximate equivalent of being sat on by a guy who weighs between 400 and 1200 pounds, depending on your strength. They other guy simply CANNOT fight back when they have that much force holding them against the door. For further comparison, it's the approximate restraint acquired through several G's of acceleration. Come on! Are you seriously trying to say that you can exert 1200 lbs pressure with your legs? Or even 400? How much can you press with your legs in the gymn under ideal conditions? Let's say you can go 1200 lbs, just for arguments sake. How long are your legs? Will they reach all the way across the car? My guess is you'll have to slide your butt forward to do it, resting your shoulders on the door. This is a far less than ideal position to press. Add to that your opponents ability to turn out of your press and you aren't holding any body any where. But to keep with your analogy of children, you are on your back with your feet in the air. This is the same position a baby is in when you change his diapers. Let me tell you how that works. He gets his feet lifted and his butt wiped. Same thing is going to happen to you (allegorically speaking). Too late! Already been working on it. ( ":o You mean that nut actually tried this?! :lol:" ) You bet! How else you gonna find out? And this question intrigued me. I have three Toyotas, 2 cars and a pickup. So they aren't the roomiest vehicles you'll find. You can easily, with or without a seatbelt on, get into the position I described. And you can easily turn in a seatbelt, and just as easily be turned. The seatbelt mechanism locks with sudden motion. Even in the brand new car with really touchy seatbelts I was able to turn. You can jam it and make things difficult, but you can still move and turn. But let's say you are in position cross ways on the seat and both feet up trying to put half a ton of pressure on this guy. Let's say the seatbelt mechanism is jammed and the belt is tight around your waist. Your opponent grabs an ankle and twists. You'll spin in that belt like a shaft in a bearing! The most ludicrous plan I've heard here so far is to put a hand up by your face and drive around looking for a parking space while some lunatic pounds you. The second would be to sit with your back against the seat in a stationary car and try to defend yourself with only one hand waving out to your side in a position with no power at all behind it. The reason some of us come to these forums is to exchange ideas and improve our understanding of our arts. Get some other perspectives on things and try new ideas out. Bart asked a good question here, and it deserves some considered and respectful response. 'Nuff said?

Did I mention that not a hair was out of place as I rappeled into your airplane? And just who do you think I work for now? Q says to say hello. The name's 1, delta1, as in 001!

Some possible scenarios where this might happen: Motives Kidnaping Rape Car-jacking Theft of items in vehicle Demented Scenarios Stoped at light, passenger door unlocked, someone gets in Sandwiched between two cars, accomplice gets in your vehicle In parking lot, assailant pushes you over and gets in your vehicle You are in a car with a whacked out crack head (he's with you, don't ask me why ) You are flying, you hear exciting music, a ruggedly handsome guy rappels from another aircraft into yours and says, "The name's 1, delta1", then goes berserk! Just a few possibilities.

I appreciate your retraction. The rest has been covered and so, as I said, I'll leave it. Except that I'll change my statement about your understanding of the backfist. I'm sure you have worked with it, so I'll just say instead that your understanding is apparently different than mine. I was wrong to suggest that you hadn't worked it.

I think that is a pretty rash assumption. In fact, the likely scenarios would not involve a moving vehicle. If the driver is seriously attacked, or even more unlikely if he is attacking, while the vehicle is moving, there will almost certainly be a wreck. Popular belief? Who the heck believes you can defend against a serious assault while driving? If you have coffee, that would be a good idea to start with. But if you are seriously attacked by someone crazy enough to attack the driver of the vehicle he's in while it is moving, do you really think you can put up a "half-decent defense", stop the car and grab the keys? If the vehicle is moving fast at all and the driver is attacked, everyone in the vehicle is in seriouse trouble. That is one of those scenarios that there probably just isn't much you can do about it. If it is going very slow, depending on the circumstances, you might be better off to defend yourself and let it crash. But before you jump on this, I'm not talking about your girlfriend slapping you or you are driving in a crowded school zone. The operative phrase here is 'depending on the circumstances'. You are correct, however, that the driver would have a difficult time assaulting the passenger without letting go of the wheel. It would probably be more effective to do what dogs do. Lift up your leg and pee on him. I'd go along with kicking the neck (similar to something I suggested). But pinning him with one foot and choking with the other? Or pinning and weak kicks? You are asking to get your ankle wrenched, your butt turned sunny side up and spanked! Another good idea.

I like that, even if it was a jab! Same as in a car.

Boxing IS a Martial art It is primarily a martial sport, but it is also an art. And if you get down to practical numbers, it is used in fights far more than any other martial art (at least in the US). If you want to say it isn't a martial art, you'd have to also remove Judo, Mui Thai, TKD, and a lot of other sport oriented arts from the list- all of which can be extremely effective on the street.

You are attacked by someone sitting next to you in a car. Good scenario, and a good example of why you need to know how to apply principles instead of just moves. You are in a tight space, seated, and your attacker is to the side. Your first priorities are to get your hips squared to your opponent and get some kind of mobile base under you while preventing him from doing the same. Twist to face him and get a knee under you on the seat. You can at least move better this way even in the restricted space. You can also now start using your hips to add power to your techniques. If you can grab his near side arm and pull as you torque into your 'stance' this will control his depth and width momentarily, keeping him side on to you. It will also disrupt his ballance and pull him in where you can take the initiative and work him over. But you are going to be 'kissing close', because he probably moved toward you to attack and you've brought him on in closer. Your primary skills here would be a good in close arsenal and grappling. Heel palms, elbows, finger techniques, and with one foot on the floor you can still use the knee from the seat. Some joint locks take a lot of space to apply, but some are really good for in close grappling. Chokes would be excellent. Use your environment. If you get the chance, wedge him in betwen the front seats. Bend him, or parts of him, over the seats. Stuff him into the floorboard and work him over. And fight like a maniac with nothing held back, because he'll probably be happy to do the same to you if he gets the upper hand. If you get squared to him but your butt is still on the seat then you have four primary weapons facing him. Get some kicks going, especially target knees if you can catch him with a foot planted. Mid section kicks push him away, possibly against a window where another kick to the head can sandwich him. If he's on you too close for kicks, use in close stand up grappling skills to make room, then go to work. The what if's and possibilities here are endless. But it would be an interesting scenario based training exercise. If you cary a SD weapon, try deploying it from your normal carry position while under a 'full' attack like this. Might be an eye opener. And don't forget that assailants often have weapons too. Good topic. Makes you think.