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(Re-post from the Korean MA section.) In our adult TKD class, the highest ranking non-Dan student is a 13-year-old 2nd Kup (red belt) who seems to suffer from hyperactivity. He's always running around, cartwheeling, dancing (!), and trying to be funny. This bothers me, as someone much older, because this kid should be looking to set an example for me (a 10th kup) and everyone else who's not a black belt. My question is: should this kid have/be allowed to keep a red belt? Bear in mind, I've seen 9-year-old 9th kups from the Juniors class behave better and more respectfully than him, and right there at his side is a 5th kup his own age who takes classes seriously and has excellent attitude and technique. Final note: this kid's mother often sits in on classes, and she's a prototypical blonde, upper-middle-class soccer mum. I bet she thinks her little angel is a precious little snowflake and boys will be boys (ignoring the 11 year old 9th kup behaving better than him and actually keeping up with the adults). Also the instructor has told me this kid 'has gotten a bit better', and yet still tells him off regularly (my favourite: 'My foot is about to move across the room and kick you' ) Sorry for the long, rambling dissertation, but this has been bugging me...

In our adult TKD class, the highest ranking non-Dan student is a 13-year-old 2nd Kup (red belt) who seems to suffer from hyperactivity. He's always running around, cartwheeling, dancing (!), and trying to be funny. This bothers me, as someone much older, because this kid should be looking to set an example for me (a 10th kup) and everyone else who's not a black belt. My question is: should this kid have/be allowed to keep a red belt? Bear in mind, I've seen 9-year-old 9th kups from the Juniors class behave better and more respectfully than him, and right there at his side is a 5th kup his own age who takes classes seriously and has excellent attitude and technique. Final note: this kid's mother often sits in on classes, and she's a prototypical blonde, upper-middle-class soccer mum. I bet she thinks her little angel is a precious little snowflake and boys will be boys (ignoring the 11 year old 9th kup behaving better than him and actually keeping up with the adults). Also the instructor has told me this kid 'has gotten a bit better', and yet still tells him off regularly (my favourite: 'My foot is about to move across the room and kick you' ) Sorry for the long, rambling dissertation, but this has been bugging me...

We use Sanju Makgi and Sanju Jirugi, they're my grading patterns for 9th Kup. Never heard of Sanju Tulgi (doesn't 'tul' just refer to a pattern, e.g. 'Do-San tul'? Either that or it's the number two in Korean )

...my instructor said to me yesterday when I was trying to remember the steps to Chon-Ji and asked him. Now, I realise I'm a white belt still, and Chon-Ji is a 9th Kup pattern (ours are Sanju Makgi and Sanju Jirugi - 4-directional punch and block), and I know he means well. But shouldn't he be encouraging me to remember a more difficult technique (which he did run the White Belt Club through on one occasion) instead of shooting me down? Just wondering...

I was sort of thinking that the other day. Like in the beginning before you get your gi (for us about a month and half) is like kindergarten and then white belt through like 5th kyu is like elementary school-- just working on the basic building blocks. Then 5th and 4th is kinda like middle school-- developing your building blocks further and starting to get a little more complicated stuff. Then 3rd-1st (usually brown belt) is like high school-- tying up the loose ends of the basics, starting to learn to take charge of yourself and organizing your own learning, getting a little bit of that advanced stuff, and getting you what you need to start your college/career training/wherever you plan to go once you graduate. And when you graduate (or get your black belt), it's up to you where you go with it. You stand at that school gate armed with the basic skills needed and now you're ready to really begin. Do you learn a trade? Get an education degree and teach? Go for a PhD? It's up to you. I like to think in analogies. This is a really good analogy, actually. Solid post!

I'm a 10th kup (although I've done MA previously) and I was allowed to spar the other day (light contact, padded). And I didn't flinch. In fact I caught some of the higher ranks out!

I'm the opposite of MasterPain...5ft8, 140lbs, scrawny li'l bugger. Most people don't fight me because they don't realise they could knock my lights out with one punch. They probably think I'm tough enough not to be worth the risk (fortunately for me, since I've never been KO'd). In fact, I'm apparently intimidating (?????) to men at clubs - when they're trying to chat up my female friends and I give them the evil eye, they never come close With that said, I'd never be stupid enough to face off someone with a gun, and every time I got mugged, I had no chance - once I was grabbed from behind, and the second time it was two guys, both taller than me and one built like a bouncer, so I thought 'hell no!'

Kensei, what if the target is you? I.e. what if some drunken lout wants a fight? Do you give it to them, or walk away from it?

Even though I have some years' experience in martial arts, I always tend to avoid fights. Even when I was an actual MAer as a kid, I was wimpy and tended to stray away from fights - especially those involving people bigger than myself. That is still true today. If I see some bloke arguing with a girl and getting really harsh with her, I will step in, no matter the guy's size (they're usually drunk anyway). But other than that, I will still go for flight over fight whenever I can. I would not win in a punch-up (I'm 140lbs for f's sake!) but I could probably do some damage with what little I remember of Shorinji Kempo, plus my coward's instinct to block block block dodge dodge dodge (I'm pretty quick, which you have to be as a small guy). However, I prefer to not get hurt if I can help it. However, I've noticed a large segment of people who seem to think MAs are for kicking butt, period, and worthless if faced as a sport/fitness programme/after school activity. Now, this may just be the gung-ho minority (there's always one), but I thought I'd ask you guys: Do you think an MAer should go in all guns blazing whenever they see a situation where their MA knowledge should be applied (say, a case of bullying, a direct challenge, etc?) Or should they avoid confrontation whenever possible? Or maybe they should balance the two? In short, fight or flight? What do you guys choose?

I got my feet mixed up with the block because I started going forwards instead of backwards (fail). Plus everyone near me was doing Shunjin (sp?) so I got mixed up. It'll come. I haven't seen anyone break anything. Not even the red and black belts that we have.

Thanks for all the info DWx! You just described tonight's class perfectly (except I don't know what breaking is). We had to run a circuit, then we did some sparring with pads (FUN), and then a bit of patterns. I was getting so into sparring that Mr. H had to tell me to lighten up when fighting a junior girl (I wasn't actually going at it with any sort of power, but I was trying to catch her out with block-feint-jab to the face and it was working. Guess Mr. H just got scared, and I don't blame him). They do offer you a gi/dobok, as well as insurance & membership, which I think is a really good deal. All you have to pay is the £20 reg fee and then your monthly fee (I'm going for unlimited classes per month for £41 because I want to try out Hapkido as well). Plus I think Mr H mentioned me only paying the reg fee this month, so I think I'm getting a month for free. Not bad. My Mr Hollinsworth is fair haired and Scottish Re: belts. If the requisite for becoming 9th kup is the four directional punch...not meaning to sound cocky, but I could probably take the test next week. Although I did get my feet mixed up when performing the four-directional BLOCK on my own (with everyone around me doing their level's forms). There's this kid in my class who's a red belt, and he looks to be about 13 at the most (probably 14 though, since he trains with the adults). I got to spar him today as well, and was more than happy to go on the defensive and let him practice his kicks. Then, right at the end, he gave me an opening and...jab to the face In a real fight he would have had his teeth busted. (Don't worry, though, I'm not acting like I'm Royston Gracie in there!)

Something slightly worrisome today: while talking to another student, he said they hold gradings every month (another 'sure fire sign' of a McDojo in many lists) and that basically "you go in, do what you normally do in class, and bang, you get a belt'. Should I be worried about this? With that said, their contract seems on the up and up (even though they do use a third party), and BLOODY HELL was that a good class tonight! Light/point sparring, and I got to take part (I don't even have a suit, mind you!) And I managed to catch some of the higher grades out a couple of times too I am now the good kind of wrecked.

I really like him so far

Well, you're the first one Usually people go I forgot to add that I have a Master's Degree in Media & Journalism. Not that it matters. Just that you asked for my curriculum XD

Hi everyone! I'm Pedro, a Portuguese national currently living in Hampshire, in the South of the UK. I stumbled across this forum while researching McDojos and decided to sign up. I've just decided to take up Tae Kwon Do after being out of martial arts for roughly 13 years. Before that, I practised a little-known art, Shorinji Kempo, at a local club in my neighbourhood. I quit because adult classes were just too gruelling to scrawny 14-year-old me, and also because I was passed on for promotion to 1st Kyu, the only regular to do so (yes, I know, ego. But I was 14, and had self-esteem problems. Cut me some slack.) I was pleased to find that I can still nail a nice-looking kick after all these years, and am nowhere near as rusty as I thought. I'm still only a casual martial artist, though, and I tend to avoid fights as much as possible. And I've never seen a single UFC event, ever. I know, right? I am a writer/copywriter by trade, and used to be a massive Internet geek, but my interest has waned this past year. I still indulge in bouts of roleplaying and I write quite a bit. My long-term goal is to become a published writer - hey, I'm way better than Stephenie Meyer and Dan Brown, for instance! Other than writing, I enjoy movies, rock music, cooking, eating, walking, travelling, and the occasional videogame. I am also a hedonist, which explains why I am currently struggling to 'clean up' my diet and do away with my pot belly! As a final note, I'm 27, and quite mature, which seems to (fortunately) be the norm on this forum. I look forward to debating MA with y'all!

I was just curious about what constituted this style, as my local school offers it. If I take (regular) Taekwondo, maybe I can use it for sparring? Then again, according to my instructor, it's mostly kids there, and even though I'm scrawny FOR AN ADULT, it'll still be unfairly matched if that is the case.

I think this is an interesting question because people treat "ego" like a bad thing, but "confidence" like a good thing where the line between the two is blurry and, often, they are the same. People want you to be confident, but when it rubs them the wrong way, it's "ego." We build people up to tear them down. "You are great, but only if I say you are great. Once you say it, you have a big ego." I believe that the best way to go is to let others speak for you. That is the greatest illustration of the quality of your work. No one wants to hear you say you are great. I've been managing online communities for 12 years, but I never refer to myself as an "expert" because it is unseemly, makes me uncomfortable and makes it sound like I am praising myself. I think that is for other people to say. I'll call myself a veteran, I'll say I have a lot of experience. But, that's it. That said, I also believe that there are times you have to look out for yourself because if you don't, no one else will. A veteran Sensei might find the need to remind a student that they've been around the block a few times. Call that self confidence or call it ego. Either way, I guess you're right. The danger, as Ev and everyone is referencing, is when people think too highly of themselves. That you believe your own press a little too much, stop being able to relate to other people and you begin to praise yourself. That's when you can lose your hunger to be greater than what you are now and lose your connection with others, because you've become less relatable and less approachable. Ev's Sensei's lesson about setting an example rings true to something I learned from my dad. Without getting into too much detail, suffice to say that my dad has been management, upper management or executive level of his field for a long time. He manages teams of people with all different job functions. The thing I learned was that it doesn't matter how high you are in an organization - if you see a piece of trash, you pick it up. You have to set an example for others to follow and you never want it to appear that such a task is beneath you. If you create that belief, then you've failed. Of course, Ev, Brian and Danielle all have to deal with my ego, so who knows. Heh. Patrick Excellent post! I have been accused of having an ego simply for saying I write better than most people I know (true), and even some professional authors (arguably true) and that I'm good at this or that. Ultimately, I think the line to ego is crossed once you start to have a problem with being criticised or losing. I am part of wrestling roleplaying communities online, and I notice this quite often.I'm fine with losing to a newb IF THEY DID BETTER THAN ME that time, but most people go "omg I can't believe I lost to *insert member name* I'm going to quit!" That, IMHO, is what ego actually is. With that said, when I practised martial arts as a kid (in a 6-12 yo class), our Sensei would often bully us to push us harder. Nobody thought anything of it, but looking back, was bullying kids a power-trip for him? He was somewhat more reserved with his adult class, except with the teenage members (under 17 or so) with whom he was the same as with the kids.

What is this? Is it like Thai boxing?

Just tell them to quit it, and explain what you've explained to us: that you want a real, challenging kumite. Most of them probably mean well and are bound to stop, because they want you to improve too.

Yes, it's ITF. "Patterns" is what the instructor called them. I've only had two classes, but I've already nailed the Four-Directional Punch Again, all the arguments I presented were gathered from articles about McDojos. I read A LOT of them, and most of them indicated one or more of those factors as a 'sure sign' of a McDojo. BTW, if it matters, my area is quite affluent. Not my village specifically, but the towns around it are mostly populated by upper-middle-class and well-off types. Actually, DWx, if you're in the UK maybe you've heard of my school. It's called Premier Taekwondo, and they're based around the Alton-Bordon-Chawton area of Hampshire. My instructor is a Scottish guy named Mr Hollinsworth (no idea what Dan he is).

I took all my 'against' points from articles I read, where they were singled out as 'sure-fire' ways to spot a McDojo. I don't necessarily subscribe to them, as I am a complete newb to this concept (when I did martial arts as a kid, I never even considered the possibility that mine was a bad school - and it, in fact, wasn't, according to the standards of the aforementioned articles.)

The fees in US$ would amount to $50-$65 pcm ($65 for the unlimited lessons). My 'against' arguments aren't personal - they were based around articles I read which mentioned those points as sure-fire indicators of a McDojo. Hell, when I was little I was part of a kid's class, and then when I transitioned to adult class (at 14) I struggled to keep up because they had 2.5hr training (part of the reason why I quit). And my school definitely wasn't a belt factory - I was there about 4 years and got to brown belt testing level, plus I was told to hold off on taking the test, one of the few to be 'held back' this way. I was just using those points as general indicators, based on articles and forums on the subject I perused.

I've posted this in another topic as a reply, but opening my own topic about it just in case. [Pasted from my Yahoo! Answers question for convenience] I'm thinking of joining a TKD/Hapkido/TKB club that runs classes in my small English country town, but after reading up on McDojos, I'm still not sure whether this one counts as one. To wit: "IT'S A MCDOJO!" arguments: - Registration fee + monthly installments & contract, even though they teach in village and school halls. - "Self-confidence, self-respect, etc" used as selling points - They organise birthday parties (?!) - 'Family' used as selling point - Kiddie classes have a franchise-like name. - Emphasis on forms and patterns. - Instructors under 40 who are black belts. - I overheard the instructor tell a parent there was to be a grading early next month... "IT'S NOT A MCDOJO!" arguments: - ...but he then told the kid not to take it if they weren't ready. - At least a couple of the kids in the Juniors class are genuinely skilled,and the class as a whole is made to work and behave. - As far as I can tell, the entire operation is run by two, maybe three people (I'm not sure whether the Hapkido instructor is one of the TKD instructors or a third person) - The instructor is a genuinely nice guy and not an egomaniac. - The instructor tells people to watch the Korean guys on YouTube rather than him. - No pressure to pay the fees - I'll be going to my third class tomorrow and am still not registered and haven't paid a penny. - Free suit, license, membership and insurance offered with the registration fee. - Sparring does take place (although with pads). - Few students above green belt (I only spotted a couple). - No kid black belts (but there is a kid red belt). - "No student is turned away" stated on their website. - For a little bit more money a month, you can attend unlimited classes rather than just 1/2 a week. What do you guys think? Is this a McDojo or isn't it? I'm only going there to keep fit and brush up on my martial arts (I got to borderline brown belt in a different martial art as a kid), but I'd hate to finance an operation of that sort. [/paste] So far the contract seems to be the main point of contention. The fees range from about £30-£40 a month, plus a one-time registration fee of £20. Are these fees acceptable? Is this a McDojo? Any help would be appreciated, as I have no other classes readily available in my area that don't involve travel.

Hi all, I've joined this forum specifically so I could post on this topic, as I noticed it is very recent, and I, too, have doubts about this matter. [Pasted from my Yahoo! Answers UK entry for convenience] I'm thinking of joining a TKD/Hapkido/TKB club that runs classes in my small English country town, but after reading up (a lot!) on McDojos, I'm still not sure whether this one counts as one. To wit: "IT'S A MCDOJO!" arguments: - Registration fee + monthly installments & contract, even though they teach in village and school halls. - "Self-confidence, self-respect, etc" used as selling points - They organise birthday parties (?!) - 'Family' used as selling point - Kiddie classes have a franchise-like name. - Emphasis on forms and patterns. - Instructors under 40 who are black belts. - I overheard the instructor tell a parent there was to be a grading early next month... "IT'S NOT A MCDOJO!" arguments: - ...but he then told the kid not to take it if they weren't ready. - At least a couple of the kids in the Juniors class are genuinely skilled,and the class as a whole is made to work and behave. - As far as I can tell, the entire operation is run by two, maybe three people (I'm not sure whether the Hapkido instructor is one of the TKD instructors or a third person) - The instructor is a genuinely nice guy and not an egomaniac. - The instructor tells people to watch the Korean guys on YouTube rather than him. - No pressure to pay the fees - I'll be going to my third class tomorrow and am still not registered and haven't paid a penny. - Free suit, license, membership and insurance offered with the registration fee. - Sparring does take place (although with pads). - Few students above green belt (I only spotted a couple). - No kid black belts (but there is a kid red belt). - "No student is turned away" stated on their website. - For a little bit more money a month, you can attend unlimited classes rather than just 1/2 a week. What do you guys think? Is this a McDojo or isn't it? I'm only going there to keep fit and brush up on my martial arts (I got to borderline brown belt in a different martial art as a kid), but I'd hate to finance an operation of that sort. [/paste] So far the contract seems to be the biggest potential red flag with regards to this dojo. I trained from ages 10-14 in a different martial art, and when I quit (after 3-4 years) I had just been passed up for 1st Kyu examination (brown belt). So I know that one was not a McDojo. How about this one?