I think too many people are uniformed about the traditional martial arts to make an assumption about them. It has been my experience that the people who sound off the loudest about traditional arts, are the people who have NEVER practiced those arts. There information is second or third hand. The bash what they don't understand because their teachers or instructors do so. Their opinions are formed by events like the UFC and other events that enlist PROFESSIONAL fighters who compete for money and to entertain viewers. Too many times in forums like this one there are pissing matches between posters over style effectiveness. Grapplers claim that strikers can't fight because they saw so and so lose to so and so on in the UFC, or their system is worthless because they don't address ground work as effectivly as BJJ schools. Strikers claim that grapplers can't touch them because they will kick them in the head when they shoot in. In all reality, who really gives a rat's *? Not all that trian in BJJ/MMA can take out a good striker. The same goes for strikers, not all strikers can floor a BJJer or MMAer. Besides, this kind of attitude can get you killed. I can't think of anything more pathetic than being shot or stabbed by some idiot in a bar, over a few words. Boo Hoo, people are mean. Deal with it. I don't care what Royce Gracie or Cung Le, did to their opponets, the average MA will never obtain the skill of those guys. They are professionals, and their training is their means of support. They also possess natural talent and a fighting spirit that most people do not. Lets be realistic here, the average MA will not be able to perform at the level of the Gracies, regardless of what discipline of MA's they partake in. Could they defend against average Joe Blow, sure, but if they step up against a pro they will get creamed, and that includes the grapplers. I guess what I am trying to say is this......practice what YOU enjoy, and become good at it. You don't have anything to prove to anyone but yourself. Self defense can be and is learned from TMA's and from more modern arts. It's time to put away the egos and grow up a bit. People practice MA's for many different reasons, and for me fighting isn't as important as I grow older. Now stepping off soap box. HKF