Iron Arahat

Thanks for the clarification. Hoost is also a very good fighter. What do you all think of Mo' Smith's chances in this years K-1? At 39 do you think he can win, or will he be eliminated early?

Changpuek Kiatsongrit from Thailand. I have alot respect for anyone can be a runner up in the K-1 giving up on average 20kg.

By virtue of the punishment dealt with Tae Pub Nok or Nai (outside and inside knee), I think you'd be in for a world of hurt...

Anyways Ken you have to admit that due to the rules of the sport you will find a San Shou fighter much more proficiant at throws, and has alot more techniques at his disposal for throwing (fact). Take the throws away and the Muay Thai fighter will have an advantage. I've fought under both rules...Muay Thai just to keep me active in my younger days. As a Jun Fan Gung Fu instructor Ken, I am surprised you would'nt fight San Shou as a preference. Remember San Shou is just a set of rules. What does Cung Le have to do with it? Sounds like a pot shot out of frustration....

The throws taught in Muay Thai pail in comparison... Many people do not even teach the throws as they are focused strictly on the ring (Thailand included). Techniques such as Khun Yak Pa Nang, Naga Mood Badan, or even Nakha Bid Hang, pail in comparison. There is alot more to schools who have athletes compete in San Shou, than the sport itself. "San shou is the quintessance of wushu"

If you want to condition your hands find a good chinese martial arts instructor...for god sakes don't do it the japanese way...no offence to any karateka's.

Try by learning the basics of the weapon first, then learn the traditional patterns from a system that teaches that weapon (if you can find someone who will just teach you that stuff without the rest of the art). Then make your own stuff up. Personally I think the freestyle stuff is junk, should be figure skaters or dancers instead. I do respect the the athletic ability of the preformers and the dedication, I jsut feel it is misdirected.

I'm just curious how successful anyone here who is a competitive fighter have been at gaining sponsorship, as well as schools that have gained sponsorship. I run a school as a non-profit organization where I live, I have been successful at the local level for gaining some sponsorship to help fund the school, and keep the costs low. Currently the association charges $350 CAN per year for unlimited trainign 4 times a week, 12 months a year. The truth be known I pay money out of my own pocket to keep running,as I offer solid traing, and I'm not aggressive with marketing (ie. selling to student). Also the training space is not the best, although getting better. My worries are that another martial arts school is running as a business and is pouring tons of money into his school. I can't compete with the dollars, and don't want to increase the rates, I pride myself on the quality of instruction, as well as the low cost. I talked with this other instructor and he stated that he will have between 100 and 150 students by the end of the year, my town only has 6000 people here. Anyways I am worried that other schools will be painted with the same brush in the end, and that his commercial attitude will taint peoples views of all martial arts.

New Zeland has sent competitors to the World Championships in the past... I'm sure there is Sa Shou in Australia...it's just knowing the right circles...

Get TSN if you can...they show muay thai bouts every month as well as NA rules every couple months. I'm sure you can get the satellite service.. TSN has also show past K-1 events....

Personally I dip my hands in honey first, then usually the chocolate sprinkles, and finally gummie bears for the added protection... I can't remeber what Hot Shots movie it was, but it was pretty funny, making fun of Jean Claude and his Kickboxer movie.

I can honestly say Muay Thai has been better promoted in North America, and the growth is greater than that of San Shou. San Shou is too tough for some people, because most events are still tournament formats. Three (3), two (2) to three (3) minute rounds, and sometimes 6-8 fights in a day. It takes alot out of you. Most people are afraid of the contact, and I have seen some schools stop competing because they are inexperienced with the throws. I get offered more single muay thai bouts than I do san shou. Still better to train San Shou if you can.....

Cut and paste is grand... Read the whole article at http://www.sanshou.org

San Shou still has knes and elbows...only in North America we see it take out lots. Also the IWUF amatuer rules do not permit elbows and knees, as they want to get talou and san shou in as an olympic event. Ring size varies...most still have no ropes, although again NA is trying to promote it as a rig sport ie. K-1 demo match in Las Vegas. Also theere is a big movement in the US with Chung Le. Chinese also have a professional circuit fought in rings, and permit elbow. A Thai fighter could easily train to fight San Shou, he would just have to 1 learn to fall properly, and learn the throws themselves. A student from any reputable kung-fu style school, which competes in San Shou can fight Muay Thai fights.

The most information can be found at http://www.sanshou.org San shou - Sanda or "free fighting" is basically chinese rules kickboxing a means for the hundereds of styles of wushu to compete. It started from challange matches, and developed into a system of rules. Currenlty san shou allows the use of any techniques with the exception of punches to the back of the neck, and permits throwing techniques.

When conditioning the hands, never make them bleed. You are doing alot of damage. Knuckle push up just develop large knuckles from calcium deposits, this will just give you problems later in life. Build the muscle first, use the proper medicine to promote circulation and healing, massage, and don't overdo it. If you cut your hand let it heal before starting again. As for kickboxing there is no real need as the gloves will diperse the force of the glove.

The site that used to promote a "fight club" in Calgary, Alberta has since shut down. It was hosted on biznet. What screwed it up was the Calgary Herald posted the site address in the newspaper...the site had the meeting location and times... Needless to say the site shut down quickly there after. Was a couple others...but I can't recall the addresses...

" I've seen plenty of San Shou to see that they are borrowing techniques from Muay Thai. It's great though, that just means they are still evolving. " San Shou has been around for a very long time, and what has evolved is the rules. A long time ago San Shou did not wear gloves, used elbows and knees (in some events they still do). Differences in San Shou techniques goes hand in hand with the numerous styles of kung-fu and other arts. Muay Thai and San Shou are cousins, very close arts. On the outside ranges, both Muay Thai and San Shou feature an excellent array of very effective kicking, punching and leg kicking. As "international" styles of kickboxing, both Muay Thai and San Shou feature kick catches and extensive clinching. The fundamental difference is what is done in the clinch. In Muay Thai, the clinch is for knees and elbows and some limited throwing. In San Shou, the clinch is for primarily for throwing though in the past Chinese stylists also used the knee and elbow. They share more in common than any other two styles of kickboxing and it is thus not surprising to know that many fighters have cross-trained and fought under both sets of rules. Returning to the issue of the so called "Muay Thai vs. San Shou" matches, the foremost issue when examining such events is the rules. The most common problem has been agreement upon a fair set of neutral rules. It is well known in Chinese martial arts circles that a group of Chinese martial arts fighters from Taiwan were invited to fight in Thailand in the 1970's and originally told that throwing techniques, so important to Chinese martial arts, would be allowed in the matches. However, upon arriving in Thailand, they were told that they would be restricted to fighting under Muay Thai rules which limit the throwing options. However, it is also true that the Chinese frequently invited Muay Thai fighters to events under the condition that the matches prohibit elbows. This is equally unfair to the Muay Thai fighters.

If you haven't already check out http://www.thekwoon.com it's a low budget martial arts series filmed in Southern California. It's a comedy series that pokes fun at martial arts movies, and has some really different ongoing gags (i.e. the nipple gag). Anyways if you have high speed it helps as the espisodes are approximately 30 minutes long in quicktime format. The show has a rather larger cult following... Take a look tell me what you think....

Good old "Fight Club"... I have been to one. but did not fight. It was comical the fight I saw. Looked like two drunk (or drugged up) greased up wrestler rolling around the floor. A friend took me there to watch, and was telling me that you can make money at this. I just saw it as a good way to get really hurt, because alot of these guys took it too far. There used to be a couple websites up and about promoting clubs like this. Too dangerous if you ask me, you may end up killing someone by accident then what? No waiver can save you then.

I'm wondering if any of you guys out there have competed in San Shou (translated "free fighting" - or in laymans terms "chinese rules kicboxing"). I am wonder what your experiences have been, and if anyone has founght with different organizations outside the amatuer world circut (i.e. IKF, WKL, WKA, ISKA). Just curious...

I can't see it happening. In muay thai there is a great deal of tradition involved, and traditionalists are unlikely to change. A san shou fighter is probably reluctant to give up the ability to throw. Kickboxing in North America is in a sense a modification to appease lawmakers. We must remember that the boxing commission often still control things in alot of places. Any type of fighting event will take $$$ away from boxing as a whole. I know that I have gone to fights were the San Shou rules have been modified to no "break the law". Same with Muay Thai...fights with no elbows! Crossovers do happen, I have fought alot of muay thai fights as a san shou fighter, although I have only fought 1 NA Kickboxing fight, and could'nt handle not kicking to the legs (I still won but it was so awkward).

All I can say if someone would rather drop out than work harder is a poor standard. Personally I would rather have a school with two dedicated students than a school with over 100 students. The jr. black belt has always made me wonder as well. Is this just another money grab...test then test again. Is it $500 for a jr. black belt and $500 for a sr. belt? I believe it's for profit still, not self-esteem. You can fail someone and make it a positive experience. We have to remember that life is full of challanges, and not everything is a "gimmie". In fact there are very few things in life that you don't have to work for. My question is why does a black belt test cost $500? That cost would pay your membership dues for two years at my school! I don't believe though that if you have your black belt, that you should quit training all together...you have achieved something that most people do not, and at this point there is no reason that you really have to promote (2nd/3rd/etc.) and therfore just paying the monthly membership fee which is a reality for everyone. If you enjoy what you do stay with it...all I am getting across is buyer beware.

Go straight for the full contact. I personally have fought San Shou for years, and have seen guys try to move into full contact from point and continueous sparring. These guys develop bad "full contact" habits. I had a fight this March against a karate fighter with San Shou rules. He came out with his hands at about half way between his chest and his belt line. I was aprehensive at first, as I though that maybe this guy was really good, and was trying to bait me in. After his first two kicks albiet fast, but no real power. He still kept his hands down as he would in point sparring. I hit him with a lead right (something I usually never do), and then moved in and threw him. The throw knocked the wind out of him...I don't think he knew how to fall. After that it was pretty much over. Anyways if you want to do full contact...start training for full contact.

Just gotta make the grappler work...kicks, knees and elbows oh...my!