Wastelander

Although I don't completely agree with you, I do thank you for your thoughtful write-up, MatsuShinshii! Personally, I see no problem with people trying to work out the truth of history. You are absolutely correct that we were not there, and do not have much in the way of solid documentation to point to for karate history, but that doesn't mean we must just accept what we are told. If we did that, we would just keep telling people that karate was developed by farmers to fight samurai, which is a completely false but widespread notion. I also don't think that this is necessarily an indication that we do not honor or respect those who came before. It is human nature to want to understand the past, and how we came to arrive at our present, and karate is not exempt from that. Now, that does lend itself to opinion and speculation, due to the lack of definitive evidence, as you mention. You even admit that your own point of view is, essentially, opinion and speculation, for the same reason. You have done your research, as have others, and you have all drawn your conclusions based on what you have found, even if you have arrived at different ones. To me, that simply means we cannot discount the possibility of either perspective, outright. We must weigh what evidence does exist and develop our own opinions. I happen to disagree with some of the "standard history" taught in my own organization, for example, because my research leads me to different conclusions. When asked about it, I will generally say "Well, commonly this is what is said, but other information suggests that this different thing may be true, instead," and recommend that the students do research for themselves. I certainly understand the desire to defend that which you believe to be true, and when someone claims that the style you've dedicated many years to studying isn't what you were told, that can definitely feel like an attack. That was definitely how I felt when I was studying Shuri-Ryu, and people told me it was something other than I was told. Now, over the course of years and research, I see what they were talking about, but at the time, it was hurtful. I don't think anyone intends to hurt others when they bring these things up--on the contrary, I think they are actually trying to help by providing you with more information on a subject that you are passionate about. I've trained and had discussions with several people, over the years, regarding Matsumura Seito Shorin-Ryu, although I don't practice it. What I have seen in my research, and learned from those discussions, has not given me any sort of definitive answer of whether Soken Hohan Sensei's claims were true or not. I think he was a very knowledgeable and skilled karateka, regardless, and passed down much of value. I don't know that I believe he learned it from Matsumura "Nabe" any more than I believe the stories of ancient masters learning from gods or shipwrecked sailors. Could it be true? I suppose, but without evidence, I can't say for sure. Could Shorin-Ryu have legitimate White/Whooping Crane material as a historical component of its system? Naha-te systems maintained a much clearer connection to their related Chinese arts than Shuri-te systems, in my opinion, but I suppose Shuri-te systems could certainly have the same type of connection I can say that if it does, I (and my Crane-style friends) can't see much of it left, with the exception of various collections of Hakusturu kata, which are hard to trace reliably, and verify the authenticity of. Gokenki was known to make up kata on the spot, when asked to teach people his system, for example, leading to a number of Crane forms that trace back to him, but with no real history behind them. Matayoshi Shinpo said as much, and actually did the very same thing, from what I understand. Does that make the material bad, or the people who taught it bad? No, not really. But I feel it's good to try to work these things out. When it comes down to it, all people are human--even karate masters--and humans have a tendency to forget, exaggerate, omit, lie, and make mistakes. That doesn't make them bad, or unworthy of respect, but it does mean that we have to take things with a grain of salt. As I said, I even apply this to myself in the system I actively study, so I hope you don't feel that this is any sort of attack on you or your style. I honestly can't even say with certainty that Itosu Anko Sensei trained with Matsumura Sokon Sensei, despite that being a widely accepted fact, for example. Be that as it may, I'll keep training, and studying, and researching. Maybe I'll find out that everything I've learned about the history of my style has been a lie. Maybe I'll find out that everything I've learned about it was perfectly true. Most likely, I'll just collect enough bits and pieces to decide for myself. In the end, that's all you can really do, but I personally encourage people to bring forth all the information and evidence and speculation they have, because without it, we can't develop an educated opinion. Again, I hope you aren't offended by this in any way--I truly don't mean any offense--and thank you for the discussion!

Welcome back to the forums, JZ! I did notice your absence when I hadn't seen any posts from you in a while, but I had figured life had just caught up with you, as it does with many of us, and the forum fell to the wayside for a time. I never would have imagined the struggle you were going through in the meantime! I'm glad you are back, and were strong enough to share your experiences with us!

Congratulations to everyone who won, and thank you to everyone who voted! I'm honored to be mentioned among so many great contributors here!

Thank you for putting this together, and thanks to Patrick for keeping KF running!

Welcome to the forum!

Welcome to the forum! As has been mentioned, you'll be hard-pressed to find a single book that encompasses all of karate history. That said, Karate 1.0 by Andreas Quast is the most comprehensive textbook of karate history I have been able to find. That book will give you a great deal of background information on Okinawan karate, but not as much on the specifics of Shotokan and Kyokushin, since those are Japanese developments. Still, it's an excellent resource.

If you were to change karate to a 90/10 split of grappling/striking components, you would have something pretty well indistinguishable from Japanese jujutsu, in my opinion, and that already has trouble being seen as valid for the reason that bushido_man96 points out--a lack of "rolling" and groundwork, generally. Now, in my dojo, we practice kakedameshi, or kata randori. This allows us to work close range striking, clinching, limb control, tuidi, and takedowns against a resisting opponent. Something that is often missing from karate training. We also tend to continue with grappling once we hit the ground, but that's because several of the instructors have experience with grappling arts (judo, jujutsu, catch wrestling, etc.) and we include that in our curriculum. It isn't technically a component of karate, even if we use karate techniques along the way.

Counter-productive? Not when used for its intended purpose--developing structure and power generation. If you use it just for hand conditioning, then yes, it can definitely be counter-productive. As it stands, I have found nothing that teaches proper structure for power generation as efficiently as makiwara training. Sure, you can develop power plenty of ways--mitts, heavy bags, resistance bands, etc.--but none of them teach you the technique of it like the makiwara does. As far as its design being obsolete, I have seen a number of alternative construction methods for makiwara that work well using modern materials. The key to the makiwara is its spring action, and I have seen people achieve this with everything from skis to actual springs. How it's made isn't all that important, provided it does what it is intended to do.

This video is, indeed, intended to illustrate a training concept, not a holistic training experience--this is simply one component to consider in training. Typically, the scenario being addressed by this is a situation that (hopefully) martial artists won't find themselves in, as it generally derives from a "monkey dance" scenario of some sort. We have mostly seen this in road rage incidents, but it happens in other conflicts as well. The idea here is to develop awareness--in live training, your partner won't always attack the same way, after all. This drill focuses on seeing the hand reaching for the hip or pocket, as a variety of weapons can be located there, and doing whatever you can to prevent that weapon from coming into play. This is just part of a larger defensive curriculum, which does include high-pressure attacks with training weapons, and a wide variety of scenarios, on top of an unarmed curriculum. We simply can't cover everything in a 3 minute video

I hesitate to call tuidi/torite/tuite an "art" of any kind, simply because that tends to make people think it is its own separate, standalone system of fighting, which is not its intent. Your comment about its "seamless flow with striking" is exactly why it isn't an art unto itself. It is a vital component to karate, and I will say that it is the "grappling component" or karate, but if you call something a "grappling art," they are going to think of arts whose entire focus is on grappling.

@Alan Armstrong - I'm not sure I would say that "punching with knuckles is proving to be less effective than palm strikes." I don't believe there are any real statistics for that--we'd have to decide on what "effective" was with regard to the strike, and how to measure it. That said, I am absolutely in favor of palm strikes for everyone when it comes to striking to the head with linear motions. "Fight bite" is a real problem to consider, as is injuring your hand with a lot of bone-on-bone contact with the skull. Punches to the body are great, though, and there are instances where I would punch to the neck or head in a bareknuckle situation. @JackD - I'm glad you're enjoying it! They are a great tool to have!

The concern about developing ugly callouses on the hands is one I have certainly heard on a number of occasions, but I don't personally find it to be much of a reason not to work with the makiwara. After all, the makiwara is for feedback, and developing structure and power. The conditioning is just a byproduct of hitting something that resists your strikes. From an historical perspective, it's important to remember that the vast majority of karateka were nobles or peacekeapers, in a culture where formality and politeness were paramount. They considered scars and callouses to be ugly, and brutish, so they were known to remove the callouses developed by martial arts training (both empty handed and with weapons). This is something that is even more easily done, today, with all of the cosmetic tools and products we have available. Additionally, one can add enough padding to the makiwara to take the edge off, without dampening the spring effect. I find that the sole of a foam flip-flop sandal will work, as will a piece of cheap martial arts floor mats. Any more than that and it starts to cause the makiwara to feel "squishy," which defeats the purpose. Between the added padding and the cosmetic treatment, people can use the makiwara effectively without making their hands look like Higaonna Morio or Shinjo Kiyohide. I hit the makiwara regularly, and barely do anything to take care of my hands, and yet I still keep the callous to a minimum. I also haven't seen any evidence to support the "makiwara causes arthritis" claim that I often hear, when the makiwara is used as intended, rather than for overzealous hand conditioning. A number of Okinawan karate masters hit the makiwara on a regular basis, and have done so for decades, while still becoming masters of Shodo (calligraphy) and otherwise maintaining the health of their hands.

Welcome to the forum, and welcome back to martial arts! Did you train with Joseph Walker in Peoria? I trained with his son, Joey, in Morton before I moved to Arizona and started training in Shorin-Ryu

KI/Mugen is the standard gi in our dojo, and they have been quite good. I was also happy with my Ronin gi for a long time, before it finally died (my fault--bleach damage). I don't think you can go wrong with either of them.

@bushido_man96 - If you're ever in the Phoenix area, definitely let me know! I'll do likewise if I find myself in your neck of the woods @Bulltahr - Yes, that is one form of a te-makiwara. I generally use my wallet as one, for small-surface strikes, but recently started working on a wooden one, as well. @amolao - Makiwara aren't very popular in most modern dojo, and even the ones that do have them often only use them for conditioning, which isn't the intended purpose. Kobudo has a similar problem, but since I'm not much of a kobudo guy, myself, I suppose I'm not really helping that too much. My instructor does teach kobudo in our dojo, though, and I do practice a little. @JackD - I'm glad you found it valuable! I definitely think a makiwara is a vital training implement for every karateka. @Alan Armstrong - We don't teach "ikken hissatsu" as the "result" of training, so much as it is the "hope" of training. If you can hit someone hard enough to stop them in one shot, that is great. If not, though, you have to be able to adapt and overcome, which is more emphasized in our training than the "one hit, one kill" philosophy. As far as the women and girls in our dojo, most do not work with it, but most students of both genders don't work with it. We show them how, but don't force the issue. Most karateka, if we are honest with ourselves, train for other reasons than self defense and fighting, and they don't necessarily need makiwara training. It would be nice, and we do make sure they work with it from time to time, but it isn't a requirement.

Thank you, everyone, for the replies! I wanted to comment on everyone, but the forum doesn't have a multi-quote feature at the moment, so forgive the lack of quotes: sensei8 - Haha, yes, I expected this type of answer--I already knew you trained with the makiwara . Do have any drills/methods you especially like? bushido_man96 - We'll have to get you to visit! MatsuShinshii - The conditioning that you describe (Wolff's Law, along with a companion law related to soft tissues, which I can't remember the name of right now) is something I see as a secondary, even coincidental benefit of makiwara training. For me, the feedback the makiwara gives me helps me develop my structure, muscle engagement, and power generation more than anything else. Of course, the resistance also builds strength in all of the tissues involved in the strikes being used. I primarily use a flat tachi-makiwara, myself. I broke our last three ude-makiwara at the dojo, so we need to work something else out for the mount for those. I find sagi-makiwara interesting, but essentially do the same exercises with hanging bags. The large taketaba I like for striking and grabbing, just not with my nukite--I prefer maize bags for that. Nidan Melbourne - You could build a platform makiwara, like the one I built for my use at home. The thumping would probably not work out well in an apartment, but it would give you one you could use at the dojo! Can't very well have a Goju-Ryu practitioner without a makiwara, now can we!? JackD - The slotted, wall-mount "makiwara" are definitely not very good for much. They can work for some hand conditioning, but they don't give you the feedback a proper makiwara does, which is really the main benefit of a makiwara. On top of that, since it's mounted flat to the wall, there are some drills that you can't really do, since there is no space behind the makiwara. I highly recommend building yourself one! Shorin_son_goju_father - Since you've trained in two different Okinawan styles, I'm curious as to whether you were taught different methods in each, or if you just carried over one into the other? Do you make use of the feedback component of the makiwara, or just conditioning and accuracy? Bulltahr - What you describe sounds like a te-makiwara, which is definitely intended just as a portable hand conditioning tool. I have actually found that my wallet works well for small-surface strikes, whereas I can use a harder tool for large-surface strikes. _____ Now, sensei8 mentioned that he has a wide variety of ways to train with the makiwara, while JackD said he really just uses reverse punches. Personally, I have a lot of different drills I work with the makiwara, aside from just standing still in front of it and pounding away with whatever strike I want to work on (which I also do). I find that it's much more interesting to work with the makiwara in different ways, and I also benefit from it in different ways. For starters, there are different ways to hit it just from a static stance with reverse punches. I've put some examples together in this video for that: Then, of course, there are tons of ways to incorporate footwork, receiving movements, and combinations of strikes. Jan Dam Sensei, from Denmark, shows some in the first video, below, while you can see some of mine in the second: https://www.facebook.com/GentenKai.Denmark/videos/1837060476550648/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BMWoW6ZDuVe/?taken-by=karateobsession Does anyone have any favorite methods or drills?

To the bold type above... But why has that been deemed as so?? In all honesty, I'm not entirely certain. The style is very old, and very small, so it may simply be leftover fears of people claiming to have trained in it when they haven't, if they learn the kata from videos. The head of the system said so, though, so it is what it is.

At my old dojo, seniority was determined by time-in-grade. If TIG was the same, then it was determined by total time training in the martial arts. If that was the same, then it went by age. My current dojo doesn't bother with such things.

Thank you, everyone! The clip isn't mine, actually--it's my KishimotoDi teacher's. I have only learned the first two kata of the KishimotoDi system (Naihanchi and Nidanbu), and will be learning Kusanku in March. The KishimotoDi versions of Passai and Kusanku are not supposed to be made publicly available, so I don't have those for reference material. That said, as I mentioned in the original post, Gensei-Ryu does share lineage with KishimotoDi, and videos are available from them. This is the Gensei-Ryu version of Tachimura no Passai, which has been heavily "Japanified," as well:

As someone who practices Okinawan karate, I work with a makiwara fairly regularly. That said, I know that not all styles, or even all schools, make use of makiwara training. I also know that many who do use makiwara don't use them the way they are intended. I'm curious how many folks here at KF train with the makiwara, and how/why?

Thanks! These types of drills can definitely be applied in a variety of ways, whether it be for sparring or self defense. We also use various "fence" positions, but you can't really stand around or walk around holding a "fence" posture without looking like a crazy person . It's great for dealing with confrontations, but this is more for a sucker punch situation, where you may not have much/any lead-up to the attack, so you wouldn't necessarily have time to employ a "fence." That's why the "hands ready" positions are great--they are relaxed and neutral, but still readily useful.

Congratulations to all! I remember those tests at the Morton dojo, and the graduation ceremonies in Peoria. Fun times!

I had been planning to do the 100 kata challenge on Saturday, along with everyone else, but spent the entire day teaching and helping with a belt test, instead. Still, that's a pretty "Karate Day" thing to do, I think

Hello, everyone! My Sensei and I's latest video takes a look at some conceptual drills for developing self defense reactions--one for developing a pre-emptive strike reaction to visual stimuli, and one for developing a defensive reaction to tactile stimuli. These are very simple drills that can be easily expanded to fit your preferred techniques or specific scenarios. In the first drill, one person holds a pad while the other holds their hands in a "hands ready" position in front of their body. The pad holder then cocks their other hand back to throw a punch, and the "hands ready" person has to strike the pad as soon as they see this preparatory action. The "hands ready" hand position is intended to be neutral and non-threatening in appearance, and is a comfortable way to hold your hands when simply standing around, while keeping your hands available for use, unlike a "fence" position, which is meant to be applied after a potential defensive situation has begun. You can, of course, practice this drill from a "fence" hand position, which is easier. You can expand on this drill once students have learned to read the preparatory action, and have the pad holder put on a sparring glove of some type, and actually throw the punch. This gives you the ability to work the drill from an offensive approach (pre-emptive striking) or a defensive approach (blocking and countering), or any number of options in between. It can also be done with the pad holder reaching to grab/shove, or reaching for a weapon, or setting up for a backhand, etc. While the first drill was meant to develop reactions based on visual cues (the hand drawing back to punch), the second is meant to develop reactions based on tactile cues. Fights aren't all sucker punches and haymakers--grabs, chokes, hair pulling, etc., can all make an appearance, whether they are the initial attack, or happen in the midst of a fight. With this in mind, the second drill has one person close their eyes, and then their partner grabs them in some way. In the video, we show a simple two-handed choke from the front, but it could be any grabbing/pushing/pulling attack. With the eyes closed, the student has to rely solely on their sense of touch to determine how they are being attacked, where the attacker is, and what they are doing, in order to react. That is a lot to figure out in a short amount of time, so the more you can drill it, the easier it will become, but drilling against known attacks, or attacks you can see coming, is going to be easier than random attacks you don't see coming. Both of these drills can be fun and interesting, and very beneficial. I hope some folks here can find a use for them in their dojo!

Congratulations!