JaseP

For the definitaive Soo Bahk Do message board (Warrior-Scholar) click on the link below: http://pub5.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=355783643&cpv=1 The site is run by a US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Fed. Master and always has lively discussions on Soo Bahk Do (a lot of art-related politics as well). I believe it is the "semi-official" Soo Bahk Do forum...

I don't think I have to post my opinion on Tang Soo Do. It think it's a given. Having trained over 21 years in the art, I can tell you that I'd never switch. I have found everything I need in it. The only downside of Tang Soo Do is the politics, which don't really effect students until they are senior Dan holders (4th and above). There are many Tang Soo Do organizations (prob. a dozen or so major ones in the USA), all with their strenghts and weaknesses. If you have any questions on Tang Soo Do, don't hesitate to ask. I'll give you candid answers.

Virtually all schools which refer to themselves as Soo Bahk Do in the USA are members of the US Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) Moo Duk Kwan Federation, formerly under Grandmaster Hwang Kee, and now under his son, H.C. Hwang. The USSBDMDK is pretty strict in enforcing copyright and intellectual property claims and had trademarked the name of the style and the federation symbol it uses. Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do were synonomous until this past decade when the USSBDMDK began taking Soo Bahk Do in a different direction. There is still a great deal of overlap. For example, both Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do tend to use to some degree the Chil Song and Yuk Ro form sets. Tang Soo Do also emphasizes the okinawan form sets that were "borrowed" or "lifted" at the founding of the Moo Duk Kwan. Most Tang Soo Do practitioners consider Soo Bahk Do the same art, with a different name, although that may change into the future. The USSBDMDK is also pretty strict with its rank and certification processes, so any certified instructors in the organization will have decent qualifications in terms of requisite knowledge. Of course teaching style and ability are a different thing. Check out the school to see if you like it.

Traditionally, the Tang Soo Do ranking system had just four (and one-half) belt colors: White (10th - 7th Gup) Green (6th-4th Gup) Red (3rd-1st Gup) Midnight Blue (equivalent of Black in other styles). (1st - 3rd Dan) Midnight Blue with solid horizontal Red stripe running the length of one side of the belt (Master's ranking) (4th - 9th Dan) That's why Green and Red Belts get partial trim on their DoBahks and Yellow and Orange Belts (etc) usually don't. Each of the belts represented one of the seasons; White= Winter Green= Spring Red= Summer Midnight Blue= Autumn The Master's belt represented the concept of the Dan rank belts being fabric sewn around the old color belt. Eventually, about 9-10 yrs in the red would show through, and hence the Master's belt (at least in theory,... usually belts wear at the edges first not the middle). Other belt colors were added afterwards, especially when Tang Soo Do was imported to the West (Americans and Europeans were too impatient to remain White Belts for a the better part of a year or more). The system then became: White Orange Green Red Midnight Blue (1960s) then; White (10th Gup) Yellow (9th Gup) Orange (8th & 7th Gup) Green (6th Gup - 4th Gup) Red (3rd - 1st Gup) Midnight Blue (Dans) (1970s) When factionalism hit the Moo Duk Kwan, you got splinter groups that then began starting using other colors (purple, brown, etc.), as well as using Black for the Dan belts.

I think it's foolish to count out any part of an arsenal that you are capable of. It limites choice to do so. If an opening to the head, appropriate to a kick, presents itself then it can potentially stop the conflict. Now, that's different than advocating "head-hunting" in self-defense. The head is a small and very moveable target, and you have to be flexible, fast and accurate and powerful to take full advantage. Besides, If you train for head high kicks, delivering center-height kicks become that much more easy...

The trembling impact rules really cause a big difference in technique and application between tournament sparring and self-defense. I'm a traditionalist, and so don't much favor the "olympic" rules. I think it's a great form of competition and really helps improve overall conditioning, but I don't feel its productive in terms of learning self-defense or the "whole" of the art... Because of trembling impact rules, kicks that are more slap-push like are favored. Points are sought which shift a person off-balance rather than have potential stopping power in application. It's not bad, just different.

For someone who doesn't know you from Adam, they have nothing other than your rank to judge what you may know. In the traditional Korean arts, 4th Dan WAS always traditionally the Master ranking, that was even the case for TaeKwonDo. It changed for TKD in the 1970s or so. It seems there were too many 4th Dans at the time in Korea. It takes about the same time to reach 4th Dan in Tang Soo Do as it does to reach 5th in TKD. As for proving yourself, that is exactly my point. You shouldn't really need to prove yourself after reaching the Master's level. But someone asked what would be the effect of changing schools for someone who is a Master. As for rank being unimportant, it is and it isn't. Rank is not as important as knowledge, experience and dedication (skill and talent? that's another story, there are plenty of Masters who just can't kick as high anymore or move as fast, and many of them can hand young talented whippersnappers their keisters). However, if you are teaching, rank is an important credential, as long as you got it the right way. The problem is that many people have promoted themselves, invented new systems based on old ones and made themselves 10th Dans, etc. But if you are teaching and you have students of advanced rank, it's necessary to hold a high rank for two reasons, (1) to have knowledge of curriculim which is more advanced, and (2) to show your students by example that continuous training is important and that working for promotions is an important step to monitor and mark your progress. I really felt that rank wasn't important when I was a junior ranked black belt. But that was before I started to teach. Now I see it as a necessary indulgance.

Laurie, What I'm saying is that there is a lot of difference between Gup (color belt rankings) and junior Dan (lower black belt rankings) versus senior Dan holders (Masters). Whereas it may be expected to at least go through some probationary period when switching schools, when you are a color belt or junior ranked back belt, Masters are treated differently. A horizontal red stripe through the center of a black belt (as opposed to those half-red/half-black poom belts which are gup/color belts) is called a Ko Dan Di, and denotes a Master. Since your sig line indicates that you are not even a junior Dan holder, you wouldn't have first hand knowledge of the way that Masters are treated. I speak from personal experience. If I were to change associations and take my students with me to a new federation, the new federation would probably investigate me a little and then welcome me in at my existing rank (many times complete with my promotion schedule). As someone who has trained over 21 years, I'd be insulted if confronted by a group of people with an average of training of 15-17 years who wouldn't honor my experience and knowledge. So there is a big difference. Traditionally, in the Korean arts, there were no stripes through the belt other than the Ko Dan Di/Master's belt. The Koreans were poor and could not afford fancy belts and ranks. There were 4 colors,... White, Green, Red (or Brown) and Black (or Midnight Blue). The red stripe through the Master's belt was symbolic of the fact that when a person made black belt, they would sew the black fabric around the red belt. Eventually, the red would show through with age, hence the belt. The different colored color belts (yellow, orange, purple, (light) blue, etc) were added when the arts started exporting to other countries where the people weren't so patient to be a white belt for 1.5 years or so. Traditionally there are 10 Gup rankings to first Dan. Those belts were signified by either stripes or cuts in the belt. Those striped color belts didn't even start becoming available commercially until about 1984. I remember when they first started showing up. A lot of use were like, "What's up with that??? It looks too much like a Master's belt (particularly the ones that were red belts with black stripes down the center)..."

Once you reach Master's ranking, there really is not of that BS about going through some probation period to be recognized at that level. I know of no school that would not recognize a legitimate Ko Dan Ja at their existing rank in the same style. If there is one, I would suspect that they would get a bad rep very fast. Junior Dan rankings are one thing. Senior Dan rankings are quite another. In fact, I really know of no Tae Kwon Do school that wouldn't recognize a Tang Soo Do or Soo Bahk Do master at their rank either (at tournaments and what-not), given the common heritage of the styles, and vice-versa. If a Tae Kwon Do Master wanted to train with me, for example, I would not insist that they go to white belt, but I would treat them as a special case, and until they were ranked in Tang Soo Do at the same level, they would probably wear their old school's uniform (except maybe for testing). I've heard of people cross training in other nationality's arts and not being recongnized at their senior dan level, but not really within the Korean arts. For instance I know of people who train in Okinawan or Japanese arts that are really different, and do not assume to be tranfered in at their Dan ranking.

A color belt with a sold stripe through it is generally some sort of marketing thing. Traditionally, the only striped belts in the Korean arts are the Ko Dan Ja rankings (senior Dan holders, otherwise known as Masters). they have a solid red stripe running the length of the black (or in Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do, midnight blue) belt. The use of stripes through a Gup or color belt usually denote some sort of marketing plan that the students have signed up for ("Black Belt Clubs" when the members of the club aren't Black Belts). Sometimes, schools have taken to using them for numbered gup promotions that don't denote a change of belt color, rather than using simple stripes on the belt (many students and parents feel slighted that every test does not result in a new piece of cloth).

The Moo Duk Kwan was founded by Hwang Kee (sirname Hwang, given name Kee) in 1946. GM Hwang eventually incorporated the Pyung Ahn hyungs (Pinan or Heian depending on what Japanese or Okinawan art you are familiar with). The reasoning was that more people were familiar with these forms. Hwang never had Japanese or Okinawan instructor (only a Chinese one). Hwang found the forms in a book in the Seoul trainstation library. Around 1960, a unification movement started to try to merge the Kwans (then numbering around 9). At first the art was to be called Tae Soo Do. Hwang Kee and a couple of other Kwan leaders balked at the orginization (didn't like the direction, didn't like giving up control, didn't like spreading the money around). In 1965 or so, Hwang resigned from the unification movement and the Moo Duk Kwan was fractured into 2 camps, those who stayed Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do, and those who went to the Tae Kwon Do side. Richard Chun was amoung the group that went to the Tae Kwon Do side. The Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan kept their more traditional roots as compared to the other Kwans, and so many still use the Pyung Ahn, Bassai, and Naihanchi form sets. (I should note that the Okinawan form sets are only a part of the Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do form sets, others being Korean).

We Tang Soo Do practitioners are still around,... I can't think of any Tang Soo Do instructors who wouldn't be happy to have a Tang Soo brother or sister come back into the fold,... As for me, 21+ years and going strong. I'll never change styles...

Totally wrong here. Moo Duk Kwan translates literally as Military Way School. The Moo Duk Kwan was founded by Hwang Kee in 1946. It was one of the first major Kwans, or schools, in Korea, and spread rapidly due to it's proximity and relationship to the railroads in Korea. As for the use of the okinawan form sets, they make up only a portion of what is taught in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. In fact Hwang Kee was one of the very few Korean Kwan Jangs who did not ever have a Japanese instructor. He borrowed the heian/pinan form sets from a book he discovered in the Seoul Railstation library. They are not performed anything like the way that the Shotokan practitioners perform them. Hip rotation and application of energy are totally different. They were added because people had more familiarity with the okinawan and japanese arts and without that association, few people would train in Hwang's school. He had originally called his art Hwa Soo Do, but the name never inspired people to train, so he used the more generic Tang Soo Do. In the 1960s the unification movement sought to combine all the Korean martial arts. Originally the name of the combined art was to be Tae Soo Do. Hwang Kee resisted this unification because he felt their direction was all wrong. He was also in the process of translating the Muye Dobo Tonji, and implementing some of the techniques contained in it's description of Kwon Bop (fist fighting) into his art. The result were the Chil Song and Yuk Ro form sets, as well as forms such as Sip Se Hyung and Hwa Sun. The Moo Duk Kwan split as a result in 1963-65, half becoming Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan, and the other half remaining Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan... That's what the Moo Duk Kwan is...

TaeKwonDo Times is probably the best and most popular Korean arts magazine going. It has an obvious TaeKwonDo focus, but covers other arts as well. One of the contributing columnists is a woman who trains under one of my old instructor's instructors, and wrote the dummies or idiots book on TaeKwonDo... she's only a third dan but still, they have non-TaeKwonDo people who are regular contributors.

Making Dan ranking isn't always about physical prowess or impressive arsenals of technique, there is also a mental and spiritual component as well. Maybe this person is out of shape, but has exhibited "Black Belt Attitude." I'm reminded of a story I heard about Hwang Kee, founder of the Moo Duk Kwan (who just passed away recently). During Dan testing one time in the United States, Grandmaster Hwang was sitting at the testing board table and was in quiet meditation (perhaps even sleeping,... we'll never know). As he sat there, eyes closed, the senior Ko Dan Ja continued to run the test, respecting GM Hwang's "self-time." One student was called up and when making Chun Be, let out such a kiap that he aroused GM Hwang from his meditations. Grandmaster Hwang Kee told the student to sit down. The other Master's asked him why he instructed the student to sit when the test had not begun. GM Hwang replied (in Korean of course), "But, he has already PASSED his test!!! Why should he have to stand with the rest of them?!?!" So there is more to being a Black Belt than having sharp kicks and snappy punches and powerful blocks,... Recently in our central DoJang, my Kwan Jang Nim had called me into his office and said, "I wanted to call you in here to get your input about something. I had aready mentioned this to the other Masters and I wanted to make sure it was unanimous. There is one student here who has always exhibited a great deal of dedication and has made it to Cho Dan Bo 4 or 5 times now after training, taking a break and returning and earning it again, and because of his age and health he won't ever test for Black Belt if he's left to his own on the decision,... so I want to award him his Black Belt, and then in six months he'll take his Challenge [the physical part of our Dan testing process]." He told me the student's name and I totally agreed. Don't just judge a book by its cover. This person may have more "under the hood" than you give him credit for. Perhaps his instructor has seen it and his rank is the result of that revelation.