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He's not/wasn't GM Kee,... He was GM Hwang,... Hwang Kee = Hwang [sir-name], Kee [taken name] His son is Hyun Chul Hwang = Hyun Chul [taken name], Hwang [sir-name] If his son moved back to Korea, it would be Hwang Hyun Chul... If GM Hwang ever moved to the US during his life to live,... it would have been Kee Hwang. Koreans use their sir-name first and their given or taken names (and they not-too-infrequently change their given names at adulthood) second. Calling him GM Kee is like saying GM Chuck or GM Sarah,... or whatever... I've only ever seen it printed up as GM Kee one place ever... Most people know that it's GM Hwang... And yes, GM Hwang was a control freak of sorts and so copyrighted all his stuff. He wanted to prevent other people from profiting from it (which most experienced TSD/SBD practitioners think is total garbage). Plus,... he had a real bad experience with the Korean court system over the whole Korean Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan issue and TaeKwonDo,... he won eventually, but the battle embittered him.

Tang Soo Do incorporates Tai Chi at its later levels,... the last form in Tang Soo Do is Taegukkwan, the Korean word for Tai Chi. It is essentially one persons part of the two person Yang Style Tai Chi form #88. The Muye Dobo Tongji states that there were essentially two "styles" in ancient Korea, internal school and external school, and that the techniques of them were intermittantly taught, lost, and rediscovered over the centuries. That the carving could be Tai chi??? The carving could be the guy serving a Croissant,.. but given the scary look on the guy's face, I doubt it, and I very clearly recognize the block he is doing and it appears in Chinese, Korean and Japanese forms of martial arts. Rember that Tai Chi is a martial art, not just health exercise, and in Korea before WWII, there were no style names. Martial arts were called Kwon Bop or "fist fighting method" and was a fairly general term. They were borrowed from all over, including China (which, I don't need to remind you, was physically connected to the Korean Penninsula), and flavored with native Korean techniques. The fact that a tomb of that era shows that martial arts were practiced that far back shows the connection. The fact that the techniques shown are still practiced, and in exactly that same hand technique combination, shows the connection. It's a low palm block and a high block, an it appears in no less than 3 Korean forms and 2 Japanese/Okinawan forms that are used in Tang Soo Do. And,... Actually all Tang Soo Do forms are NOT taken from karate,... The Chil Song, Yuk Ro, Hwa Sun, Taegukkwan (as previously mentioned), Sip Se, all are not karate forms. The Giechu forms are not from Karate, they were developed by Hwang Kee to introduce basic concepts. They were absorbed into TaeKwonDo from the Moo Duk Kwan members who broke off in the mid 1960s. The forms that were taken from Shotokan are : the Pyung-Ahn (Heian) set, Bassai set (Bassai So and Dae), Naihanchi set, Sip Su, Jin Do (Jinto), Lo Hi, Kong Sang Koon, Sei Shan, Wong Shu, Jion, and Oh Sip Sa Bo. They were familiar and easy to learn, and that's why they were added to Tang Soo Do. In addition, some people know So Rim Jang Kwan, which is a Chinese long fist form... Tang Soo Do is a mixture of Korean and Chinese martial arts with some borrowed Japanese/Okinawan forms. And since Okinawan forms were taken from Chinese forms, and Okinawan styles have since borrowed Korean kicks,... the circle is somewhat complete... The Korean martial arts of the Kokuryo Dynasty don't have to be done exatcly as they are today for there to be a connection... Boxers of 150 years ago would not recognize boxing of today as the same sport... There is some "evolution" that takes place, as well as cross polination. That doesn't make the statement that the art traces its origins that far back any less true,... anymore than it would be to say that it can trace its history back 10,000 years to the age of early systematic development, where primitive cultures realized that if they hit with this or kicked with that that it would do damage...

Just "Dave"...??? Like "Cher" or "Pink",...??? or does he have a last name??? 3rd Gup, that's great... that means your like 9 mos to a year from 1st Dan... By the way, don't be that impressed by rank,... it's mostly a question of having trained a long time and worked hard. You'll get there too as long as you don't quit... Most of the Masters I know (at least the ones who have had their rank a while) are the most humble people that you want to meet,... outside of teaching that is,... Are you guys in a Federation???

That's good... What about Sip Soo, Jin Do, Kong Sang Koon, Sei Shan, Wong Shu, Jion, and Oh Sip Sa Bo, et al.?

Who's your instructor and what level are you, juan Kerr???

Yeah,... this stone relief of Kwon Bop, dating back to the Kokuryo Dynasty, depicting a low palm block and a high defense... http://www.jtpowlette.com/Histor10.jpg

Yeah,... My wife tries to run the place too...

Hmmm,... Possibly a legend,... possibly done once,... but look at something for me... Take a look at the picture that kickcatcher posted of the horse and rider,... then add the leg length of the rider to the bottom of his torso, and figure out how tall he was (remember he is bending his legs). Then compare it to his horse's saddle height. Those are particularly short horses, but probably not out of line with what the Asians had... Still the horse's saddle is head high. Your picture of a kick just exceeds the first guy's head hieght while he is supporting his buddy (knees bent, but let's ignore that)... Assuming the ancient Koreans had your ability (proportionally),... they would have been hitting a rider just above the crotch level with a jump kick,... not an ideal height from which to dislodge a rider. AND you were jumping from a hardwood floor, not coarse terf... Maybe once,... then legend... but a very lucky kick if it happened... My bet is still on being an exercise which found a limited application but a great training method... And I don't go with the "looks cool" to the master theory,... as its more likely that a jump kick is derived from a kick that already exists,... an extrapolation,... as are most techniques.

Are you talking about the TaeKwonDo poomse??? Palgwe set??? They are part of TaeKwonDo curriculim in the WTF... Since I train/teach Tang Soo Do, I don't actually know them,... seen them a lot of times,... but don't know them to do them.

My wife of 8+ years just tested for her Ko Dan Ja ranking in Tang Soo Do (4th Dan). Soon she will join me in the Masters' ranks (our belts are awarded after a brief wait of 1.5-2 months). She had a good test. Along with her,... 3 of my cho dan bos tested for 1st Dan. Needless to say, I'm a little proud of her right now. She has had a lot of anxiety leading up to this test, and it's behind her now...

There are two rationales behind the use of Midnight Blue as opposed to black... (in my dojang, as in my instructors, we wear black trim for training and Midnight blue for formal occasions out of respect for tradition). 1) The use of midnight blue for the Dobahk's trim and midnight blue for the belt harkens back to the Hwa Rang Dan of the 1600s who's uniforms were white with dark blue trim and a blue belt (the belt did not leave ends though, but wrapped entirely around the body). 2) Blue was preferred for the Dan ranks by Hwang Kee because black is a final color, you cannot add any dye to it to make it more of what it is. Blue on the other hand, can be made more deep by adding more pigment. Black is also associated with death in many cultures (not Korean, necessarily, but other cultures around the world). By the way, the use of black pants is not traditional. Traditionally, Tang Soo Do yu dan jas and ko dan jas alike wear white, like the rest of the class, the only distinguishing feature to the Dan ranks' Dobahks are the belt and trim. The same is true of the gups above 6th gup,... they wear trim of their color (lapel only, not cuffs and bottoms). Again the only distinguishing feature is rank. This holds to the premise that everyone is the same, but for their experience, just as when one bows, in class, senior and junior bow at the same time and in the same way. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but if I were you... if given the option of using blue for formal and black for class, I'd take it (it keeps the Midnight blue nice for formal occasions), except for the fact of the black pants... that rubs me the wrong way, as if the black belts were a better "class" of people... Otherwise, there is no shame in a tattered Dan belt and dobahk, were you to stick with blue trim only... In fact a well worn in blet and uniform is a sign of hard work.

Oh,... by the way, TaeKwonDo (and most "empty hand" Korean styles) are just that, "empty hand" styles. Weapons are adjuncts to training, so strickly speaking, aren't really part of TaeKwonDo.

I can't speak for TKD, but I can speak for Tang Soo Do, and the execution of punches is different from Tang Soo Do to karate. The difference in not in the position at chamber,... although the proper position for a formal chamber in TSD is not the hip but with the forearm parallel with the ground and fist in the middle of the rib cage. The major difference is the generation of power. What I've observed in karate is that power generation is often done with a hip "wiggle" (and this even at high levels, senior Dan holders, be it Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, Goju, whatever). In Tang Soo Do, there is a decided hip "twist", driving the hip into the direction of the punch, rather than away from it. You see this more dramatically in the center chop guards found in forms. This hip rotation is usually driven into the student at an early level. It pervades all techniques, blocks, hand strikes, kicks, etc... You need to keep in mind that Hwang Kee, founder of the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan never had a Japanese instructor (nor anyone who taught by a Japanese instructor as an instructor). As I've said in other posts, his only formal instructor was a Chinese man. While the techniques in Tang Soo Do superficially resemble karate, they aren't karate. What karate can be found in Tang Soo Do is as much a factor of style blending prior to WWII than anything else (with the exception of the "borrrowing" of the Okinawan form set from Japanese Shotokan). Besides,... the punch chamber you describe is also found in Chinese arts. If you look for pictures displaying punches or forward directed hand strikes, you will see the very same chamber that exists in all the Asian arts (i.e.:: Bagua, Sourthern Shaolin Kung Fu, etc.). Some things are universal, and exist in most arts.

Kumdo (gumdo) is actually more like iado than it is Kendo, and it is Japanese derived. It was first incorporated into the Korean martial arts structure prior to 1789. Differences are yielded through coloration found in native Korean arts, and Chinese techniques, but it is primarily Japanese derived. The Koreans admired the Japanese swordsmanship and so overtly stole some of it. From the Muye Dobo Tongji (circa 1789): What follows is more history and a description of the technique, including woodcuts...

It depends on the Kwan of the originating TaeKwonDo style (there are more than one). Some Kwans did little or no forms training, and didn't borrow any Japanese forms as a result. As for content, You won't find the high and powerful kicks associated with Korean styles in any original Japanese or Okinawan style. Prior to the late 1950s, Japanese/Okinawan styles didn't execute any kicks above the solar plexus, and the ones they did tended to the short and choppy. Also, basic technique execution in Korean styles differs from the way they are done in, say, Shotokan. Hip rotation is different, force generation is different. Many of these things found their way BACK into Japanese/Okinawan arts from interaction with the Korean arts. TaeKwonDo was formed from the Kwan system in Korea which dates back to just after WWII. From that time, you had a re-discovery of the native Korean techniques (from those who kept them alive) and a blending of them with the Japanese arts that had pre-dominated during occupation. The trend over the last 30 years has been to downplay the Japanese influence... but it is there. More on that below. Only the Okinawan form set was taken from Japanese karate. Everything else is Korean or Chinese. The Okinwan form set usually consists of about 80% of the pre-Dan form set, and 45-50% of the post Dan form set (in most schools, some don't use the Korean set, and so I would consider them watered-down Tang Soo Do). As stated above, technique and execution is totally different. the Okinawan forms were taken for marketing purposes (its what people were familiar with). In addition to what you will read in the rest of this post, Tang Soo Do practitoners excute thngs differently than "karate" practitioners (the use of the word "karate" amoung TSD Practitioners being marketing,... again). Hwang Kee, founder of the Moo Duk Kwan, never had a Japanese or Okinawan instructor. In fact, his only formal instructor/student relationship was with a man in China. Prior to that, he imitated the practice of a Korean Kwon Bop master before WWII. The man wouldn't take students, which was understandable due to the Japanese occupation. He incorporated the Okinawan form set into Tang Soo Do (called Hwa Soo do prior to that) after 1946. So the foundation of technique and execution of the art was primarily Korean/Chinese. Hwang Kee wasn't even IN Korea during the 1930s,... he had hopped the railways to China, escaping the Japanese who were putting native Korean martial artists to death. Not quite. While Hapkido was developed in part from Jujitsu, much of the technique and application is quite different. For example, wrist, elbow and shoulder locks (which they have in common with Tang Soo Do) are excuted in any number of different ways. One such method of execution is unlike anything you would see in the Japanese arts, and is clearly local Korean flavor (less manipulation, and grander movement, you see this in Tang Soo Do as well). There is certainly a jujitsu influence, to be sure (most, if not all of the Hapkido heirarchy was trained in Jujitsu), saying that it's just jujitsu is a dis-service to both Hapkido and Jujitsu. The classical Jujitsu practioners would have a fit if all of a sudden their students started executing technique like a Hapkido practioner (and probably vice versa). Modern more ecclectic jujitsu practioners would probably not care,... but would notice the difference. I don't know any Kuk Sool Won practitioners, so I couldn't tell you. I'd guess its similar to HwaRangDo's situation. Supposedly derived from a combination of Hapkido and fighting learned from a Korean monk in a monastary... Truth to that??? Considering that Jo Bang Lee is still alive last I heard and is still sticking to his story, I'd bet that it's accuracy has a 70% chance of being right. If his story is true, than HwaRangDo is more a version of Korean kung fu than anything. To what degree is it related to the HwaRang Dan??? I don't know that it IS, in terms of lineage. It's more likely that it the HwaRang name was chosen for it's historical significance (read: marketing). Yudo is Korean for Judo, and is just pretty much Judo. There is no such thing as a pure-bred Korean style. Even in pre-1789 Korea, they tended to borrow the things they liked from the Chinese (long weapons, and some empty hand fighting) and the Japanese (swordsmenship). Koreans, being a proud people, tend to gloss over any Japanese influence. Considering how brutal the Japanese were during occupation, that is understandable. There is still a lot of bad blood there. But on the other hand, people tend to OVER-ESTIMATE the influence of the Japanese arts with the same passion that the Koreans downplay them. Neither is accurate. The truth is in the middle. As I said,... there is no such thing as a pure-bred Korean style. There never has been or never will be. As I stated, the real area of Korean innovation came from the use of the legs more predominantly than any other region's art. Specifically, the way in which power was generated in the kicks, and other techniques. The Chinese used body rotation and the Japanese were direct. The Koreans blended the two aspects as had not been done by either. Nowdays, you see Japanese/Okinwan competitors executing their technique more Korean-like, and Chinese practitioners using kicks and direct strikes to a greater degree. It seems that the Koreans are not the only ones with cross-pollenation. I've seen the difference within my own martial arts career. It's interesting to note that there was really no such thing as "style" in Korea prior to WWII. Before that, the names of the various arts were pretty much interchangeable. Things were called Kwon Bop, Su Bahk, Tang Su, etc. and it was pretty much along the lines of; "Oh, so you're a boxer,...", "yeah, I'm a fighter,... you know punching, kicking, wrestling...",... rather than it being delineated. The biggest delineation was in terms of internal arts versus external arts, but pretty much only in pre-1600 Korea. After that, you don't hear of it being an issue (cross-training?!?!? Maybe). So what percentage of Korean arts are actually Korean like they were in 1930s and before??? Depends. On average 30-60%... depending on style.

No. It's a good way to train for developing control,... there's a difference. To train to hit, you use a target. That's why you never see a lack of kicking shields, paddles or heavy bags in a Korean style dojang. People need to be able to go home to their school and jobs. Being a punching dummy is better suited to an actual dummy, especially considering that a full powered, well excuted, Korean style kick can possibly kill. As for the timing aspect, there's not a lot of focus in one-steps (il su sik) or three-steps (sam su sik) on timing (maybe should be a little more, but there generally isn't). It's more about being able to appreciate angles and understand vulnerabilities at those angles to various techniques than anything else. Timing is for free fighting, or self defense (Ho Shin Sool) training. As the student gets higher up in level, they should get more aggressive with their partner in terms of free fighting and Ho Shin Sool. One and Three steps aren't the only partner methodologies that Korean styles use... they are only the ones that people are more likely to see in the middle of a class.

The anti-cavalry origin of jump kicks has long been de-bunked. Even considering that even the shorter war horses of pre-1700s, they were too high to ever kick a person off a horse with a jump kick. It's more likely that jump kicks were derived from the emphasis of the Koreans on leg strength and kicking,... and were a natural extention of the exercises they did to improve leg stregth. The Koreans employed all of the weapons that the Chinese had for using against (and from) horse-riding. They even had a few more exotic ones (such as the Nang Sun Chong Do, or multiple tipped bamboo spear). So there was no need to try to knock horsemen off their horses with jump kicks.

The McDojo problem effects all styles, Korean, Japanese, Okinawan, Fillipino, Chinese and MMA/NHB schools... It isn't limited to any style or type of martial arts. Its all about fluff and * and unadulterated commercialism. It's ok to be a commercial school. The problem is when the art is compromised for the sake of profit. That's the feature which designates a McDojo. No style or art is immune. The Reality Based Self Defense/Mixed Martial Arts crowd like to blast traditional schools in this respect, but they've got crap in their closet too.

Actually TSDY049,... that is incorrect. The US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan changed its name much earlier than GM Hwang Kee's death and Master HC Hwang taking over the federation. As always with Hwang Kee, it was a factor of gaining control over what he had initiated (not that he wasn't a great martial artist, but he tended to be a bit of a control freak when it came to the affairs of the Moo Duk Kwan, which is why Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do is not a part of TaeKwonDo). There is/was good and bad in that. The major differences between schools which use the Tang Soo Do name and the Soo Bahk Do name is that the Soo Bahk Do Assoc. schools have largely eliminated the Okinawan form sets from their curriculim, and focus almost entirely on the Chil Song and Yuk Ro form sets. In addition, they practice such forms as Hwa Sun (a long and beautiful form taught to senior Yu Dan Jas [black Belts] and junior Ko Dan Jas [Masters]). Most Tang Soo Do schools have taken to both form sets (the Korean and the Okinawan), to one varying degree or another. With both the Chil Song and Yuk Ro form sets, I have actually trained in Tang Soo Do curriculim longer than they have been a part of it (they were however, developed over the period from 1946-1968). As for the style's emphasis, Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do is very pragmatic when it comes to technique, application and self-defense. There is a greater emphasis on Ho Shin Sool (self-defense) than in mainstream TaeKwonDo. There is a reliance, at least on early levels on traditional drills such as one-steps and three-steps, which are not strictly speaking, self-defense drills (although they dabble in application, and technique useful for that pursuit). Sparring is a part of the curriculim of TSD/SBD, and for the more junior students who wish to obtain better self-defense skills, it is advisable to use the principles obtained in the 1 and 3-step drills to augment their free-fighting ability.

Yes, Remember that Black Belt is just the begining. You now are no longer a beginner, nothing more. Real learning starts after black belt... in a class filled with them, you'd be lining up last... Nobody has to kiss your ... posterior ... In fact, if anything, you have more responsibility now to prove that you are not a beginner. You have to act more like an example of what Tang Soo Do is all about. If you get to stuck up about your rank,... remember,... a lot of us have been there before you, and your present knowledge is to a 2nd Dan what an orange belt is to you... Just think of what that is in relationship to the masters... Knowledge is obtained in degrees. You just got your first one.

The original Jido Kwan instructor disappeared during the Korean war (killed/captured?), and another took over the school after him,... So my guess is that this was an attribution shared by many of the Kwan Jangs right after WWII, and not Hwang Kees attribution or those of the Jido Kwan (or under it's older name, Chosun Yun Moo Kwan)... Not that's we'll be able to ask Hwang Kee anymore...

I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's unreliable,... it's just that people with a Shotokan background often misinterpret the fact that we share a common forms base to believe that Tang Soo Do is a Korean Shotokan rip-off. That fact is the borrowing was intentional, for "marketing" reasons, if you will (Hwa Soo Do was just plain unpopular until KJN Hwang changed the name of the style to Tang Soo Do, and incorporated the familiar form set).

Congrats!!! That's excellent... I'm excited for you. Black belt is a new begining. Get those 20 classes in as soon as possible. Tang Soo!!!

Actually, the forms attributed to Shotokan had roots in Chinese White Crane kung fu. Hwang Kee never trained at the Jido Kwan. He might have attended seminars but Hwang Kee NEVER studied Shotokan. As for the origins of the Pyung Ahn and other hyung, He had found a book describing them in the Seoul train station (Yong San Station) library, where he worked for the railroad. The Jio Kwan was founded in 1946, and the Moo Duk Kwan was founded around the same time... so the Jido Kwan and the Moo Duk Kwan were more peers in the Kwan system than parent and child. Hwang Kee only ever had one instructor, and that was a man in China that he trained with during the WWII era. He also claimed to have studied the training of an old Korean Tae Kyun/ Kwon Bop master who refused to take students (for fear of Japanese reprisals)... He imitated the man's movements and became proficient. When he was 21 years old, he was widely regarded as a martial arts expert. So there is not much creedence in him being a student at the Jido Kwan. My guess is that their animal associations were taken from research into their Chinese White Crane roots... The forms, however, as practiced in Tang Soo Do are closer to the Okinawan way of doing them than the Chinese root.

I have like 6-7 uniforms (some in need of a little repair), including my Blue-trimmed dress uniform (which only gets used for special occasions like tests and tournaments), so I have the luxury of wearing a new one every class. They get washed after every use. If you only have one,... once a week is good.