GeoGiant

Agreed. When kept in context, stop-and-start point sparring can teach valuable concepts. If used, it definitely needs to be only a piece of the training, rather than the focus of the training, but it can serve a purpose. I think you guys make great points and maybe I've jumped the gun by saying that point sparing is not for me. If I can rephrase my initial statement - I don't see myself spending a great deal of time training to point spar. One thing that this tournament taught me was that my diagnosis & reaction time is becoming better & faster. Based on some of the suggestions I've been given here I think I may try continuous point sparing or maybe "something" that offers more contact.

I can't argue with you on that. Since its been so hard for me to locate a single group of individuals that I can trace back to one common ancester or founder i think i have generalized everything to a degree.

I’m very interested in the lineage of my art but that is just my nature. When I have an interest in something I want to know everything about it. I find myself seeking out others with knowledge on that topic for discussion and debate… that’s why I’m here . I love to hear other people’s opinions… unless its politics or religion… but that’s another discussion. MAs appeals to me on several levels. My wife has asked me from time to time why I don’t join a boxing gym. She thinks that training to box (she has a little background in boxing) would provide me with the exercise and the physical challenges that I looking for. To my wife, karate = fighting. She doesn’t see the point in performing katas or learning the nomenclature. For me, MAs and training in the dojo represents a sanctuary. As soon as I walk through the door my mind clears and I know exactly what is expected of me. I enter a place is that defined with specific boundaries. There is a rhyme and reason for everything we do. The group dynamic is always present but at the end of the day each person is responsible for their own development. I think that part of that development is learning the traditions and philosophy of the art your studying. Personally, I don’t how someone that truly desires to be a martial artist cannot be interested in lineage. If someone is involved in an art and only wishes to learn fighting techniques than I’d thing they would get bored by trying to perfect a movement.

This was the case at my school. I may be the exception to the rule because one of our black belts is a BJJ guy (he did that first). I've been training with this guy after our regular class and Sensi doesn't mind but I would NEVER use BJJ during the Karate class.

I've thought about this quite a bit. I don't think that this type of point sparing is my thing but I love the idea of competing. I may try continuous point sparing or something else that will provide a little bit contact and require a good level of endurance. I hope I never have to engage someone on the street but if I do I want my reaction to be instantaneous. I don't feel like training for stop n' start point sparring provides me with anything useful... but that is just my opinion

Thanks!

Recently I have been trying to refine my punching technique. Usually I wear a grappling style glove or boxing glove, depending on what I'm doing. I've been throwing anywhere from 200 to 500 punches - jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts. I lift weights and do a lot of push-ups using different angles so my wrists, hands & forearms are fairly strong. I have NEVER had a problem with my wrists hurting after bag work... that is until I started to focus on punching with the primary contact being from my index & middle finger knuckles. Have I been punching wrong and now making this correction will cause me pain until I adapt or am I focusing too much on those 2 knuckles? I notice that my fist rotates a lot more when i focus on the 2 knuckles.

Last night was my first night back at class since the “tournament incident”. I’m happy to report that my Sensi was not mad at me. We talked about the situation for a while and he pretty much mirrored everything you guys said. He did seem very irritated by the way the judges publicly reprimanded me.

Haha. I'm sure when he said we could ask him anything he didn't really mean ANYTHING. Welcome, Matt! I know but the idea of my 13 year old putting that online gives me the chills.

Hi Matt. Good to have you here. This is a great forum with plenty of knowledgeable people. With that being said [parental mask on] you probably shouldn't be telling people on the internet that your so young & so open to any question. Not to sound creepy but you read so many things in the newspaper & you can never be too safe (parental mask off]. Good luck in your training!

What seems odd to me is that my school seems to use a mix of Japanese & Korean terms. I haven’t asked my instructor why we mix these terms but I plan to ask in the near future. I’ve been trying to collect a little background information so he can see that I’ve made an effort to educate myself. For example, we perform katas and the word kata appears on my belt test requirement sheet. However, it appears that the kata names are Korean words – this is based on my LIMITED experience. The first yellow belt kata I’m learning is Gie Chul Hyung Cha Ke…. It is my understanding that Hyung means pattern in Korean. I’ve tried several online translators and I haven’t found the meaning of any of these words.

Thanks IcemanSK! I like to read so any type of MAs material that isn’t intended for instruction (I like those too but not for casual reading) or isn’t a textbook is desirable reading to me. Toptomcat - once again, I tip my hat you! After your initial post to this thread I started to search wikipedia for background information…starting with Hwang Kee. 99% of the citations I found referenced journal articles and most of these journals were out of print. As I stated before I see now that I will not be able to find one or two comprehensive sources that will provide me with the level of detail I’d like to know. I had a physics professor in college that used to say, “when things become cloudy or uncertain, go back to a point where things were clear and start over” [Did he steal that from Bruce Lee???]. Since I don’t have a clear beginning I thought I’d start by reading something on pre-occupation Korea and move forward from there. BTW- I agree with your assessment of wikipedia. It is a great starting point for any type of information search and over the past few years it seems that wikipedia has gotten better about removing people that provide false information. When I searched for earth science information I would quite a bit of false information on controversial topics such as evolution but that is another discussion altogether.

I just want to know for my own knowledge. I'm the type of person that needs to know why. Since I started taking TSD I find myself thinking about it a lot. I feel like I should know where this art came from and how it evolved. I hated it when someone asked me a few questions about TSD and I couldn't provide an answer

Toptomcat has been a big help so far. When I started to look into KMAs I didn't realize how difficult it was going to be. This may be the first time I’ve had difficulty finding the information I wanted to learn. Typically, if I want to know about topic “x” I go out and buy a book on the topic. Usually there is a generally accepted explanation. I’m sort of at the crossroads on how I want to move forward – I realize now that I will be researching this topic with the hope putting the pieces together. Based on the direction I was given by Toptomcat and my limited research background, I’m thinking that I will need to understand (1) the pre-WW-II Korea, (2) the Japanese occupation & (3) post-occupation to maybe 1960’s. Without these fundamentals I don’t think I will be able to evaluate why someone may be writing a certain version of Korean history. It appears that everyone has an angle that they want recognized as the truth so without knowing the author’s motive(s) I will have no way to evaluate what is being presenting as fact.

Thanks, I will check your recommendation out. I've read so many mixed reviews about Korean MAs history that I would rather take a personal recommendation from someone.

Way to go!

I may be straying from the topic a little but Jay's comment jumped out at me, "Skipping is also amazing and will improve your martial art footwork". Has anyone used skipping for their cardo workout? My knees take a beating and skipping seems like it would strengthen the stablizing muscles in the legs. When you skip do you focus on just moving forward or is more of a bouncing up & down type skip movement? How far / long do you skip? Would I be required to carry a basket? (ok, that was a joke. I couldn't resist ).

As someone with past knee issues I feel the need to jump in here. Research your injury online, someone out there has had the same problem. Talk with a sports doc to find out what to do and what to avoid. For me, I told the doc what i wanted to do and how i wanted to do it. He suggested a 6 week program that allowed to get my knees ready for training. also he told me how to identify when I was over-working something vs. straining something. The key is to push it but know exactly when to back off. Remember that ice, heat, and ibuprofen are your friends! After each workout I would take 2 ibuprofen and ice then heat. This made a world of difference.

Thanks for everyone's opinion. First - my instructor wasn’t at the event, he was out of town. I can’t blame him for any of this. Basically, I went to him on a Monday when he was walking out the door for vacation and said hey there is a tournament on Saturday and I want to compete. He said that was okay for me to attend but he said he wished that he would have worked with me on sport sparring. Looking back it seemed that several BBs as well as my instructor may have showed some concern about me going but I was so gung-ho about going I guess I put them in a position that they would have had to tell me no. My instructor asked a blue belt to go with me – that should have been another hint to me. I talked with this blue belt after the match and he told me that I was too aggressive and there was too much contact but he said he would have expected as much from a yellow belt. He seemed very annoyed that the judges gave me a public tongue-lashing. I asked him if I was crossing the line and said no. I don’t think this guy would sugar coat it for me because I told him that my I felt my roundhouse kick was a tap and he corrected me and said…. it was more than a tap, it wasn’t over-the-top for a yellow belt to lack control, but it was more than a tap.. With reference to the rules, I'm not sure that someone could have told me anything other than drilling into my head that head contact was not allowed. The target area was defined for me and rules of stopping/starting were explained. It seemed that the judges had a problem with contact, or controlled contact as they called it. I decided to stick around and watch some others spar, including the black belts. I figured I would use the black belt (BB) movements to judge myself (I always need a frame of reference). Well the BBs were just tapping each other. Back fists were being throw that were 12-inches (or roughly 30.5 centimeters for my metric brothers) from the other persons head and that was called a point. I must say, the guy that this back fist was thrown at was not in a position to defend but… 12-inches away. As most know, closing those 12-inches can be tough. Not to over-simplify or take anything away from the BB that took first place, but he spend most of time with his hands at his sides, back foot planted on the floor and front foot 3 or 4 feet off the ground (this guy was 6-foot / 1.83 meters or taller). I was the tallest guy there so if I employed the same technique as the winner, I would have forced each opponent to push my leg down or to the side and then they would have to strike me before I hit them with my forward hand. That just seems weird to me. Its like a 300 lb guy wrestling a 175 lb guy… ok the 300 lb guy wins but so what…. shouldn’t the 300 lb guy win anyway? As martial artists what are accomplishing or demonstrating by balancing on one leg and toe tapping the advancing opponent. I love to idea of competing and using the skills that I have been taught. I spent a few weeks training for this competition (as opposed to researching it!!!). I’m lifting weights, hopping up & down bleacher steps, working the heavy bag with 1 lb palm weights in my hands…. I’m in my basement jumping off and on a box with hand weights above my head trying to get my stamina up. The whole time I’m thinking, if I can get my abs, back and shoulders stronger while making it an instinct to keep my hands up around my head, I can move around the ring area, absorb some shots, and focus on breathing until I get a hold of my adrenaline…. then as soon as I have my focus I would advance and force my opponent to go toe to toe (everyone loves to kick so I’m thinking move in close, punch then finish with a kick). I practiced for hours with my face pressed against the bag while throwing low, middle, and high hooks. Keep in mind that no one ever told me to do any of this training. I read books, magazines, and online stuff about training for a….. FIGHT… Doh. I tried to indentify were my weak points where and correct them Toptomcat - I own that DQ and I take no offence to anyone saying what you stated. I joined this forum because so many people like you seem so knowledgeable in the art of martial arts and I’m as interested in the art, history and philosophy as much as I am interested in the technique. Before the DQ, I was given the point for my roundhouse but I was yelled at for contact. No where did I read or was told that we were trying to avoid all contact when aiming in the contact area. Again, my opponent didn’t buckle or seem hurt but he knew I was there. Looking back, if that match was today I would have to abandon most of what I’ve learned and spar the way that BB did. Lupin 1 – I attend 3 or 4 classes a week. 2 classes are focused on proper movement, one-step defences and kata. Then at least once a week one class is devoted to sparring. Because I’m older and taller I usullay spar with a BB. Our sparing focuses on body shots but light head contact is made. Typically if (I should say when) someone hits someone in the face / head area everything freezes for a second, eye contact is made, and both give a nod or say I’m okay and we keep going. If I drop my hands, I get hit. If I dance around too much a BB will close in on me, chest to chest, and he will force me throw him off me. A few times after sparring I thought I was going to puke. My instructor is an older gentleman that is retired and teaches because he loves it. Based on what I’m learning outside the dojo he is a throw back to the old days… I don’t wear headgear, only a mouth piece when sparring. If I get clocked, I’m told that I got hit because…. I never feel like I’m being forced to do anything. The BBs lets us set the tone… if we come hard and fast, then they come hard and fast. Not everyone in the class takes it to the level of heavy contact but I’m certainly not the only one. Sensi8 – I have to agree with you, reviewing the rules won’t have made a difference. I knew not to make head contact but we got tangled up and my training took over. I’ve trained not to hit hard when taking a head shot but I have trained to take the shot when it is available. Thanks for the support. This experience will not affect my desire to train, I’m not sure about point sparring, but I live to train. I hope I don’t sound like a jerk by saying this but the way instinct took over was exhilarating. When I stepped to the side and threw the kick I don’t remember going through the motion, I remember shifting my weight and then the top of my foot was striking his rib area and my hands never dropped. Same thing with the hook that got me DQ’ed. I don’t remember thinking punch. I remember stepping forward so he couldn’t kick me, we were really tangled up and I never dropped my head, then I started feeling my weight shifting to my front foot and twisting from my hips…. then I see my fist coming around, arm bent at a 90 degree angle and my elbow was high. Instinctively I pulled the punch after a light tap to the side of his forehead and then the judges screamed STOP. It felt like that hook happened in slow motion. I stopped instantly when the judges said so (I’m used to listening for my instructor to say stop) but at that moment my other hand was chambered and I was getting ready to give him a punch in the ribs. Granted this guy wasn’t expecting someone to be MMA fighting so he probably wasn’t protecting himself very well but I felt like I was about to level him… my breathing was steady (I wasn’t holding my breath) and my heart wasn’t racing. I felt like I was in a zone that I can’t describe. I had no feeling of anger or aggressiveness against my opponent. It was almost like my opponent was there; I was completely focused on what I needed to do….. get inside, drive him back with punches, as soon as he makes a straight back movement finish him with a front kick if the hands go down or a roundhouse if the hands go up. Ok I’m sure I sound like a nut now.

Like the title says, I went to my first tournament today. My dojo doesn’t really participate in point sparring so I was unsure of what to expect. I arrived on time and registered. We were broken into groups and told the rules… contact areas, non-contact areas, when to stop & start, practice control, etc. I was the first to fight which is not the scenario I wanted. I was hoping to see other people fight so I could get an idea of how the match was going to work. I line up, bow at all the wrong people at the all wrong times. I didn’t freak about it, surprisingly enough, I just tried to correct my mistakes as I made them. When I step to the line in the ring, I have 3 black belts to my left that are acting as the judges. The guy across from me (my opponent) was bouncing back and forth getting ready to fight. The center black belt says ready stance, I drop back, get my hands up around my head to protect. My opponent just keeps bouncing with his arms at his side. Well my opponent charges me and I step to side & he taps the front of my gi – point him. We line up again, exact same thing – point him. Now I’m facing 0 to 2 so I’m thinking I’ve got to do something… MOVE… so I said to myself, if he makes one step toward me I’m stepping to side and throwing a roundhouse kick to his ribs. My opponent does the same thing and as soon as his foot hits the mat, I hit him with a roundhouse – judge yells stop & I stop but never drop my hands until my opponent does. My opponent looks at the judges and mumbles something (I don’t know what he said because I was sizing up my next shot). A judge looks at me and yells CONTROL. We had 2 or 3 times where the judges couldn’t decide who hit who first. We tangled up once and apparently I hit him in the head – neck area but I have no idea where or with what… we were chest to chest and all tangled up. I got a warning for head contact and we go back to our lines. He starts bouncing again and then jumps toward me and I hit him in the chest – point me. Now its 2 to 2 and I’m feeling good. Well…. the judge says fight and we get tangled up. To tell the truth I don’t know what he was doing… I think he was trying some kind of front snap kick but he was too close… and for some reason that is when it happened… my eyes were focused on his leg but when I realized he couldn’t get a shot on me my vision expanded…. all of a sudden I could see his hands were at his sides and we are positioned a foot or two from each other….. without thinking I threw a right hook and hit him in the side of the forehead… not hard, more of a tap – the judges yelled at me told me to take my gi off because I was disqualified. I knew it, I didn’t try to do it, but I did it. I’m walking back to where my stuff is and the lead judge follows me and says, “I wanted to make sure you got control of yourself”…. Hu??? It really didn’t register for a minute. A little later, the same judge calls me over, 4 of us line up, he points to 1st, 2nd, 3rd, then says disqualified to me. Then one by one, each judge gave me a tongue-lashing about how this is not a street fight, you can’t be that aggressive, I need to get control of myself and not let the adrenaline take over. After they were done I apologized. I leaned forward to the judge that disqualified me and said that my dojo doesn’t do point sparring and I told him that this was my first match and I that I never acted out of anger I was fighting like I do when I train. This judge apparently didn’t believe me and told me he was there to make sure people didn’t get hurt and he wouldn’t except me to fight a black belt like than! I know this is a long story but I feel really shook up by the whole experience. Let me say first that the guy I spared against NEVER double over or buckled from my shots, he never rubbed anything like I hit too hard, he never looked like I hurt him. I’m a yellow belt and he was a purple belt, we were both about the same age and size. After I saw some of the higher belts spar I can see that I was fighting…. they were point sparing. They were throwing and pulling kicks and punches. I was trying to make contact, what I felt like was light contact, but contact all the same. I hate the idea that someone thinks I was losing my cool and trying to attack another person. I’m 38 and I haven’t been a fist fight since I was in middle school. Now I see that I should have learned more about what I was doing before I did it. This situation is all my fault and I know that. I just drove home like a deer caught in the headlights. I sit here now feeling like someone is telling a story about some manic that showed up for an MMA fight.

Thanks again Toptomcat. I plan to research this topic more but you saved me a lot time because i was going in the wrong direction.

If I’m way off based here please let me know (BTW – I appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions). A superficial comparison of the schools & fighting systems you listed seemed to indicate that Tang Soo Do & Shotokan are closely related by technique and philosophy. Both provide training that focuses on a 3-part system (basics / forms / sparring) that is learned from a standing position. Stances and movements are very similar. Also both utilize a similar belt or ranking system. The “others” you listed involve boxing, striking-grappling, striking-grappling-weapons, and dance. These techniques &/or philosophies &/or systems seemed to be significantly different from Tang Soo Do & Shotokan. I know that you referenced Hwang Kee as the founder of Tang Soo Do. To me, Hwang Kee seemed to indicate (or the authors seemed to indicate) that Tang Soo Do evolved from Korean martial arts which can be traced back the period when Korea was divided into three kingdoms. A search of these 3 kingdoms indicated that Silla (I believe it is pronounced Shilla) eventually conquered and unified the 3. Since Silla is the conquering entity I looked in the history of Silla & martial arts and learned about the Hawarg… I see that I may have taken too many liberties while piecing the history together. Aside from the aforementioned, several sources stated that Hwang Kee incorporated Shotokan movements into Tang Soo Do When I tried to find more information on Hwang Kee / Tang Soo Do I learned that Lee Won Kuk was credited as being one of the first instructors of Tang Soo Do in Korea. Apparently Lee Won Kuk had a dojo during the Japanese occupation of Korea. Around this same time Hwang Kee would have also been training in Tang Soo Do. I found very little information on Lee Won Kuk however what I did find said that he noted a close connection with Shotokan. Ok…. If I ignore the question of who was the founder of Tang Soo Do (Hwang Kee or Lee Won Kuk) and focused on where the art originated, I’d have to say… Shotokan was already an established art at the time Tang Soo Do was recognized. If I can understand how Shotokan evolved I may have a better understanding of how Tang Soo Do was established….? I’m sorry if this post reads like a ransom note but my head is pounding from trying to piece this together. To be honest, the more I learn the more confused I get.

Thanks for the tip. I always like to get someones opinion that actually uses the product as opposed to someone that has an opinion on a piece of equipment that basically sits in thier basement .

You guys do stripes though, right? So I guess maybe getting your first stripe or two is how you prove yourselves in the beginning. Yeah, we have three stripes for white We have 5 white belt stripes so it take 6 to 7 months to get to yellow. Yellow has 4 stripes so your looking at 5 to 6 months to get to green. Things get slower after you get your green belt. I was told 8 years is a reasonable time to get a black belt. With what I know now, that sounds about right.

I like all the seasons. Here in Pa, USA (I see there are UK ppl). Basically we get 3 months of each season with occasional extremes in the summer and winter. I'm an earth science guy so the winter represents soil and groundwater rejuvenation periods [i know that sounds geeky]