tallgeese

Yeah, fundamental movements are always best. Not saying anything against the DLR or any other tactic, I work it quite a bit. However, the core of the game will always be the basic, fundamental positions. The beauty of this is that the better your base gets in these, the better you'll defend those crazy positions and attacks that others bring against you. Granted, you'll get caught every now and then simply because you've never seen a human body do that but your fundamentals will be sound enough that generally it won't matter much.

There are situations outside the ring where this is a good tactic as well is my belief. We have started teaching the building blocks at the department to get this maneuver into everyone's tool box. Largely for the reasons you lay out LP. Most of the time we hunt in packs, hence someone is usually on their way if not already with you. With the right upper body control and grips you can keep the bad guy away from the stuff on your belt. Plus you can usually get to your radio and scramble the emergency button is you haven't got people on their way yet. Lastly, what I've found thru some experimentation is that it's not a horrible platform to deploy you're weapon from in close quarters. Of course, this takes some extra care in developing grips and control so you don't end up wrestling over the gun you produce. By the way, since the subject came up here. One of the best training things we've done was to start working grappling drills with duty gear on and working on things like safely deploying weapons and retaining them, ect. This is particularly useful for us copper types, however, it's just as important for anyone who carries any sort of weapon. You'll be surprised what you learn about equipment selection, placement, and presentation and use.

Bummer about the knee GS. I don't know how it went down but one thing to be VERY careful of with the De La Riva is the angle at which you are to your partner. When you're working it, you should cut the angle to the outside. So, once set up, you should be looking more at the side aspect of the knee than the front of the knee. I've found this to be way more friendly to the my own knees. Especially since mine are not as young as they once were.

2/15 am: Work at department. Rounds of mitt work, ground escape and force escalation. pm: Drilled ankle pick takdown. Half spider to triangle. Same to sweep. 45 min free roll.

The big, never forget, item from BJJ should be positional domenance. I agree with everything else listed, but above all, establish positional control. Not only think position before submission, go a step futher. Position IS the submission. Nothing is possible without it. Airtight position should be your priority goal.

How had I not seen this yet?! Awesome. Please do the pro rasstlin' episode next.

I agree with bushido man, bet to avoid the individual altogether. MA's can attract a certain ego-centric personality sometimes. They do usually weed themselves out. Stay clear, work on your thing, keep training.

Glad to hear you found space. Good luck and keep us posted.

02/14 am: Day of unarmed work at the department. Mostly teaching, but got some reps of ground avoidance tactics. Several rounds of baton work as well, much like the Dog Brothers work. Well, except for the fact that we're mandated to padded weapons, don't armor up, and aren't NEARLY as good. Okay, so NOTHING like the Dog Brothers, but I can dream. Still lots of good live reps with the stick. pm: Drilled randori takedowns, doubles to lift. Running the pipe drills. Counters to choke counters and finished with shoot to lift and carry rounds for conditioning. I really wanted to puke. 25 min free roll.

You forgot GS. You make a good point, though. We tend to belong more in the general, combative, grappling and weapon sections. Though I think TG still views himself more as a karate/ jiujutsu practicioner. His striking still has a very Kempo Karate flavor to it. I don't think the thought had really crossed his mind that maybe it's not exactly "karate" anymore till I made that point. All very true, MP. Very true. I still do view myself as that. I am; however, very glad that the art has evolved down in your area since I left. Just as I'm glad that my version of it has evolved since I left.

I am now out the door to actually TRAIN, not just talk about it i'll have to chime back in tomorrow. That said, I think this thread has been fantastic on a couple of levels. We've had a great, passionate discussion with drastically different views and backgrounds involved and even people on each side of the debate have had variations on the theme. Everyone has had sound arguments. And it's been civil. Threads like this are why I like hanging out on this site.

The article is up in the Articles section. xo, you raise an interesting question. First let me start by saying that principle based work as I look at it and explain it in the article is about setting up a response pattern to aggression. It's about being confronted with violence and winning. Not learning an art. However, your goals or principles will certainly effect your training. ps1, it won't be surprising if those look similar to aiki jiujitsu is some fashon. There certainly is some roots for our system that go back to it, one of it's "grandfathers" so to speak was highly ranked. So I can't look at them and tell you how to look at BJJ thru them. What I can tell you, is how BJJ fits into my principles for prevailing in street level conflict. First up, you're met with aggression of some sort. For ease of example, let's say someone takes a swing with a punch. Historically, this has been bob n weave time for me. Or perhaps hand trapping response. Why? Because the first principle I need to deal with is Evade. Not to get hit. The more I do BJJ, I've noted that my evasion is more and more reliant upon a level change and shot. This lets me evade hand attacks and move the target they are attacking. Next up, I need to stun the individual, make him think about not hurting me. Again, traditionally, this has been a counter punch for me. Or a few depending. Then we go to unbalancing. Taking his center. This is one area where I've almost totally re-wrote my game since my BJJ career took off so I can state how BJJ has effected this particular prinicple. This used to be the area where I'd work straight arm bars, bent arm bars, ect. Now, it's gone to almost exclusively body contact takedowns. Doubles and singles of all varieties. It's a recent (relative to my time in martial arts) evolution. I just see these types of takedowns as more controlling and have had more luck putting people down with them. It's also made it easier to move into the final phase of control. Last we get to control. This is physically imposing your will on the attacker so he can no longer attack. This is where I use a lot of mount, side, and knee if for my job. I fully understand that it could also be done via knockout, standing RNC, ect. For me, this is what's evolved most natrually. So, for now, I can show you how my BJJ training has effected my principles but not the other way around. I'm not sure it works the other way because that's not what the principles were designed for. They will effect your learning of an art and how you work it into your response for sure; however. I will stand by those principles as highly valid for prevailing in unarmed conflict, though. Getting out of the way of harm, hitting back, taking the bad guys center and ability to generate power, and finally owning him and the environment paint a pretty good progressive pattern for coming out on top. By training to pull off those things and gearing your tactics to accomplishing them, you greatly increase your odds of winning. It directs your actions during a fight rather than let you rely on a bag of tactics to throw without progressive strategy at the bad guy. I don't for a second believe that these are the ONLY principle set out there. I can say that they are valid and work. Others might as well. And anything that realistically directs self defense efforts is a vast leap above many martial artists.

Yup, the showdown was awesome. It was the old west meets zombies. Awesome.

2/12 Free roll for 75 min.

Yeah!!!!

So true! What do you say SAAMAG? Any thoughts on any of the points of discussion to date?

Just so we get lost, I've never said there is no reason to do kata. Just that it's not the ideal training method for combat. Karate being an evolving (thru it's history) set of systems that are about unarmed combat is entirely capable of surviving and thriving without the use of kata given today's knowledge. I also think that we're probably going too far if we start to label every drill, movement, and tactic as kata. I think the popular opinion would be that this is not the case. LP summed this up well I think. Now, the following that todome said: The kata are the memory of karate, collected over the centuries. I'll never know everything there is to know about the art, but if anything or anyone does, it's the kata. Might be one of the most beautiful, and best for that matter, arguments for why someone would want to do karate that is heavily influenced by kata. I still feel that this application has more to do with cultural preservation and history than combat, but I would use this an argument as to the beauty of the art beyond combat application. However, if one's focus is combative, it can still exist without the training method of kata. If you look at Siddell's works he talks about applying adult learning theory to combat physiology and learning. One of the primary factors in getting adults to remember and learn tactics is direct application to the skill they want to learn. If one is studying martial arts for self defense and fighting, then other methods show this more direct correlation. If one is training for historical or cultural preservation or a connection to something larger, then todome's statement directly relates to those goals. It's about matching goals to methods. Karate is large enough to handle both.

2/11 2.25 miles on the treadmill.

2/10 light day: abs back/bis Little loose on the diet.

For those that haven't seen it, here's a fascinating interview with Kron after one of his seminars. He's taken some heat over his statement that his grandfather invented the guard. However, I think that, that particular argument is hardly important given the concepts he's talking about that most people tend to gloss over in favor of the more controversial statements. The concepts of how to train, connection, being comfortable, pure jiu jitsu, ect. I think it's amazing to hear how great players think about the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEYwpSIaMlg&feature=player_embedded

But all styles don't use kata as a training tool. Lacking kata isn't going to cause an inefficiency in learning. Could you give me an example? Sure. BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, Aikido, Combat Hapkido, Pankration, are some off the top of my head that don't train with kata. All are effective combat systems. BJJ - this teaches combinations of techniques, THIS IS KATA Wrestling - same as above Boxing - each Gym has its own set of techniques and combinations practiced together makes up a Kata Muay Thai - Again each Camp practices its own combinations and again when they practice them all together 1 after the other this is Kata, I know when I trained in Muay Thai myself My Arjan shouted 24, 10, 12, 15 & 4 etc Aikido - Sojobo has answered. Hapkido - These have Hyungs here's 1 of them I've not come across a style yet that doesn't have a series of combinations/techniques put together to make it easier to practice! As Sojobo said Kata Does NOT have to practiced alone, it can also be in pairs too If we look at the bolded statement, we go back to the point in my last post that really points out the difference in what you're talking about here and kata as it's defined. Even two man kata. There is a radical difference in having a string of tactics that you move, work, cut angles on against a live , mobile opponent (yes, I've boxed) and the typically rigid, straight lines of kata. A vast difference. In mindset as much as movement. Practicing a set of techniques in BJJ hardly matches the idea of kata because the next time you work it there will be variants. You'll use a different grip, a different set up, chain together different attacks. Having done kata (albeit long ago) and BJJ, I can say that working kata and working tactics in BJJ are two different worlds and in no way comparable.

2/9 am: 1 mile run chest/ tris/ shoulers abs pm: Drilled single leg from grips. Moved on to ankle pick from inside reap. Drilled half guard passing via knee slide pass w various grips. 20 min free roll.

Nice!

It's hard to give better general advice than ps1 opened with so I won't try. Listen to him. As for a couple of specific things I'd consider as well, I'd start by getting your inside elbow (the one nearest him) to the mat. This will start to build space. Space is your friend from the bottom. -Specifically, you'll want to be doing this early in the video example you provided. Per ps1, this will also give the T-rex arm. To make this movement, you'll need to be shrimping. The guy in the demo (yes, I understand he'd doing that because it's a demo) is flat. Never be flat, well maybe not never, but close to never. Get on a hip. One thing I've noticed is that people new to grappling always seem to think that they aren't making enough space with the shrimp. The longer you do it, the more you'll find you can do with less space. Keep shrimping, it's the key. So, shrimp and get the inside elbow to the mat. Once you build connection there, you can keep shrimping your hips away, this will start giving you recovery options. That all said, sometimes it just isn't happening for you. Sometimes, this happens to me as well. Bait flat, but work for half guard as he moves to mount. Yep, it's not a great plan, but sometimes that's all you've got. Especially since the guys probably more skilled than you if he put you there to start with. One last bit of advice, relax. Whatever you work from down there will work better if you relax even more. Good luck, keep us posted.

Part of the problem with the analogy (and it's an interesting one, Dobbersky) is that kata is predefined in its set of movements. There is no variation, ever. It's part of how kata is judged on being done well or not. However, if you look at self defense drilling (your example) with a partner and focus mitts, you might throw the same jab, cross, lead hook combo each time. However, you and your partner will be moving, circling, ect. This is a dramatic difference that takes us to a movement patter far closer to an actual fight than a memorized pattern. Even if we go to a solo example, someone doing the same combination on a heavy bag or torso dummy is still throwing the same tactic. However, they are moving, cutting angles, finding openings, ect. Again, this, and the contact of hitting something, is much more like a real fight due to the slightly more dynamic nature. If we step back from mimicking a fight even more, due perhaps to equipment issues, we'd go to shadowboxing. This is probably the closest thing I could come up with out of my groups efforts that looks like, and might be compared to kata. However, there is still a difference. In shadowboxing, one is moving in a patter that IS NOT predefined. Even if they are working, still, the same jab, cross, lead hook combo. The lack of predefined movement is a major mindset shift from kata that goes to mimicking at least one, albeit, controlled aspect of unarmed combat. This mindset difference is an important one, even if it is so basic it goes without saying. A fight isn't predetermined, and it moves. In fact, because of that fact it probably doesn't get said enough. Kata doesn't train this the way other forms of drilling does. Still, I find the argument along this line interesting (someone who is more familiar with the Filipino system might have to comment from that standpoint) . Although for me we're talking about drills for a system, accessories to the boat to stay with your analogy. The strategy and principles of a system, to me, would be more analogous to the motor for the boat.