tallgeese

My core style of Bujin utilized the kata out of Goju up thru the tensho and seanchin (sp?) series. I also had the good luck to train in a couple of the nihachi (again- sp?) series while working for another instructor during my college years. Here's the thing, for me, with kata- you're doing and working on all those things: "simultaneously work foot work, cardio, balance, fight techniques, etc" in a vacuum. If we do mitt work, partnered drilling, obvious stimuli for your resoponses so that there is no deconstruction step you make training much more live and much easier for an adult to learn and understand why he is doing these things. I had a great instructor with a weath of knowledge about kata in college. His empahsis was on the joint manipulation shown in kata. However, for me, taking the time to do it disjointedly in prearragned patters was no where near as effective a learning tool as simply getting a partner and working the actual movement agianst them. Then from a more random attack at more speed. Then against an opponent in armor that you could strike more realistically against, then have him resist and move on to another tactic you've worked, ect. It's a learning pattern that just about every profession that deals with violence in a modern setting uses. Again, I'll point out the book "The Tactical Trainer" by Paul Howe. It uses a building progression for several of the SWAT and tactics schools he teaches. It's a manual on how to build tactical units thru training principles. It's basically a guide to developing lesson plans. The steps he goes thru are much more similar to what I'm talking about (and to a large degree I've patterned much of my marial learning around this sort of thinking, it gave a format to the things I've been thinking about for years) than the use of anything that resembles kata in any way. This (or something like it) is how most of the professions that deal with armed professionals learn their trade these days. It's not "kata" but it's a model of learning that has grown with the knowledge and understanding of todays psycology and combatives. Here's a link to an article I wrote for the site that kind of discusses the process I'm talking about it might be easier than explaining: http://www.karateforums.com/focus-mitt-training-for-the-multi-disciplined-fighter-vt34351.html Just an example. But you'll note the emphasis on all of those things you mention, except the goals are immediatly recognizeable by the student and there is a premium on movement and dealing with incoming aggression.

I have no doubt about two way learning and would certainly be open to meeting more guys from KF. I do have friends out that way so it's a possibility at some point. My thing is, I've trained via kata, and I've trained without it. I know how I learn best and there, to me, isn't an attribute that kata develops (which I agree with your list, btw) that can't be developed under more real conditions and thus better prepare me for what I want those tactics for.

Fair enough on your opinion. However, I think there are some pretty strong arguments that better drills can be designed based on modern understanding of adult learning. Also, I think it's important to consider the fact that more direclty applicable drills can be conducted that more quickly enhance a students ability to win and thus survive a conflict. I won't go over them again, but I spell them out thru the thread. Basically, kata is very static and fights aren't. Why train statically, over and over when it bears little in common with actual combat. Again, I cite other application of this, but it's already in the thread.

3/17 Drilled De La'Riva work. Sweep, single leg and knee bar finish. 45 min free roll

Right, which means that any excess that can be streamlined should be. Especially if there are other, more realistic methods of training available. Again, if we're talking about self defense here.

It's the "years and years" part of that, that is hard for me to deal with. I might be in a conflict tomorrow. I'm not saying that training for years and years is bad, in fact, I've been at it for over two decades now; but there is a lot of decoding to kata. It's like an intermediate step to learning. First learn the pattern of the kata, then the bunkai, then get good at using them. I maintain that most adults learn better when they can immediately see the use of what they are learning. If we just start working on all those things you listed, you start getting applicable reps of each sooner. This means that after you train years and years, you've effectively gotten more "live" reps because you cut out an intermediate step.

That sounds somewhat hard to believe considering the amount of accidental deaths I've heard of where people have fallen and hit the back of their head/neck on a corner surface ie. a curb. Unless their elbow didn't have much weight behind it or it didn't really catch them in the specified area, it doesn't seem likely that no one would be seriously injured after multiple incidents of the foul. I mean the elbow is a very pointed part of the body. Combine that with a 200 pound fighter and a brain stem that doesn't take too much to damage and you'd expect someone to have some kind of spinal injury. Admittedly I don't watch much MMA competitions, but this sounds as unbelievable as someone catching a punch and hitting right behind the elbow without breaking the guy's arm.Then show me incidents of it. That's it. We can say it doesn't make sense, but show me the incidents. In the 15-20 years of mma popularity, show me when it's happened. Of all the times when people have been taken down in a sd situation (by the aggressor or defender) show me where it's happened. I just don't see those reports circulating.

Great video that highlights a lot of really great things about jits. It's also pretty useful for other points to consider that we're looking at from a LE standpoint, but as for technical jits used under duress of a real situation it's pretty fantastic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJX9QnrZtfc&feature=youtu.be

Welcome aboard! Look forward to hearing from you.

I too, am a sd focused ma-ist when it comes to my core arts. I agree, sparring alone can't make one ready to defend ones self, it's a tool. In fact, by varying the kind of sparring one does, you're effectively changing the tool you're using to sharpen attributes. Kata, is the same, a tool. It is; however, a tool invented over a hundred years ago. Self defense does not rely on kata. It relies on the development of skills thru drilling and the use of training modalities. Basic tactics (what most people would call kihon I suppose) are another tool. Just like building something (in this case martial skill) if you use tools better suited to the job at hand, the better results you'll get (in this case, more realistic drills and modern application). I've never been a point sparring fan. Nothing wrong with it if that's what you're into. But again, I feel it's a poor tool choice to develop self defense skill when we're talking about sparring choices. Same, for me, with kata. Nothing wrong with it if you're doing it because you like it. But it's a sub-par choice for skill development to survive assault, where one would be better served by a more live, realistic based drill than rote memorization of patterns that hide application. It's just about streamlining the learning process. For me.

Right. We had a guy come in, like MAYBE a 4 stripe white that commenced talking about the 50/50 guard last year. My coach bantered a bit and basically told him "yeah, we don't really do that here." I, out of curiosity, went and googled it later and went "yup, not interested." YouTube has shared a wealth of knowledge. It has also started jumping people into the deep end that they don't have the technical base to support. But maybe that's just me being old school and cantankerous

Welcome to KF! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the subjects here. Have been in a basement dojo here and there I have a certain appreciation for this type of training and the experimentation it brings.

Welcome aboard!

The knives and sticks are staples of the art's weapon side. I can't speak for the rest of the craziness or combinations

I agree with both of the above statements. In theory, a well constructed shot shouldn't let your opponent beat you mercilessly due to body position. See bushdo man's reasoning. Moving from theory to practice, MP is correct. We've seen high caliber athletes throw unprotected elbows to bad areas during shots and takedown efforts without killing anyone. And rarely, if ever, finishing a fight in this manner.

Gotcha, thanks. So many times, we go thru positions and it's like "so we're going to play from here..." and the breakdown commences. Figures, I found a BJJ school that's not big on terminology either

I, and most people I know, will use that knee to keep space during half guard. I've also seen really good half guard moves that don't utilize it. It is however, a great tool. As to the 93 guard, I really have no idea what the specifics of that is. Of course, I've never called the knee up in half a "knee shield" either. Names aren't my forte. Maybe an explanation of what it is or vid?

I don't really worry much about explaining Dan grades. I am quick to point out when the subject comes up (which is rarely, I agree most people look as black as black) that, in the experiences I've had thru my core art, 3rd an up is more of instructional merit than anything else. 5th and up is more time in and honorary than anything. By that point, you've started to reach the point where you won't be regularly pounding with 18 year old killers as much as you did at one time. I've never been quite so "basic mastery" focused for BB's. BB's should, in my opinion only, have more than a basic understanding of the art. They should understand the movements, theory, and principles of the art. Plus, they should be able to implement drills independently of another instructor to build these factors in others as well as completely understand the favored drills of the art. They should understand use of force laws in their area, and be able to articulate when they should escalate to a weapon and be proficient in the weapons of the style (in our case, knife, gun, and club). They should understand the basic (there I'll use the word now) care, maintenance, and use of a fire arm both automatic and revolver. And lastly, they should be able to not just recited all this but demonstrate it under induced stress of mock combat and reality based situational work. That, to me, is much more than a basic understanding. It's pretty deep stuff. And it should be. It's part of the reason I really appreciate the BJJ ranking system. By purple, you've got the basics of your trade down. Brown and then black are ranks where you start to dig deep in the understanding and the finer points of the art. Every BJJ black belt I've ever met has had a very deep understanding of what they are doing. But again, it's just perception. No one is saying that you've learned it all, in any art, by bb so maybe it's just semantics. But I prefer the perception that black belt is an advanced understanding of the art, not just the beginning. I'm not talking about technical skill here. Technical aspects that work across testing and time are routinely the basics of any art. They are the go to movements that just work due to physiology, ect. I'm talking about the understanding of all the little factors that go into making them work. That's what needs to be deep and I like to see that depth in black belts.

3/13 Drilled a couple of rounds of eyes closed roll. Moved on to working guard, no hands. 60 min free roll. Really worked with wrapping via the gi lapel tails.

3/12 Drilled low single to standing single back to far leg trip. Moved on to breaking guard from down and standing. Pass. 25 min free roll.

I agree all around! Great episode. I was also a fan of Carl's involvment in the ending and the tribute that the showed payed to the comic with it. All bets are kind of off right now. We'll see who's left standing next week.

Elbows are great for a lot of reasons. As with all things, they are a great tactic, not the be all and end all of tools. They work with little room, and can come from just about any angle. Yes they have been elbows and knees in the UFC since the beginning. In fact, in early UFC's there were no prohibitions on headbutting. Even hair pulling and fish-hooking were allowed. Groins strikes actually became legal later which lead to Keith Hackney's destruction of Jon Son's private area via upper cutting punches from the ground. Early on in the 90's, eye gouging and biting were about all that was off the table. So grapplers have had to deal with those sorts of things throughout the competitions, and they did just fine. In a couple of the early ones, you could even see stomp kicks to the back of downed opponents head and neck area. The major factor that has seen strikers see a resurgence is the other factor you mention, the fact that everyone is now a well rounded fighter. Strikers are able to strike because they learned to grapple. At least to some degree. The sport is actually WAY safer now that at any time in it's history, despite the use of elbows and knees.

I agree that cutting an angle to the incoming force is the way to go. Even if it is minimal. This could be as simple as turning in relation to the force while countering, or it could be something akin to stepping to an off line position with the incoming force. Given possible environmental considerations; however, it's important to have trained some negative position work in regards to stuff like this. It's entirely possible that one might be ambushed between cars in a parking lot for example and thus negating the ability to cut angles. You still need to have a plan. So, even though everyone will probably say getting off line is the best route to go. It's beneficial to train for the not so ideal situation. In this case, it's best to find other ways to move around the force he presents by moving utilizing level changes. It's also beneficial when faced with this sort of thing, to attack back into the force (with level change) rather than get caught being pressed back and subsequently overrun by said overwhelming force.

I agree with Justice about the environmental factors, they are important to consider when making distance. Another reason that backing straight up for multiple steps, for me and the arts I come out of, is a less than optimal choice is because it does nothing to change the angle between you and your attacker. He can continue to press in a straight line and press his forward attack and you're relying on blocking or evading to not get hit. By moving back and cutting angles, you chance the angle he needs to vector on to hit you. This keeps you safer. Those angle changes often open him up for your counters as well. So, if I have to go back (and like Justice I'd rather cut angles going forward) I'd much rather cut them to an angle than move in a straight line back. I'm in a position moving straight that he and I are in the same position to hit one another. If I move to an angle, I increase my position to hit him and momentarily reduce his angle to hit me. It's another form of positional dominance. I don't want to be even with my attacker, I want to be at an advantage always. Angles give me a slight advantage against a forward pressure. I'll never say I won't gain distance. My reflex is to close to clinch, but I never say never. For instance, I train to gain distance to clear a weapon. It's an important skill if you carry one. However, I'll still work angles to the incoming attack to make that happen.

Defiantly keep us posted on what you find. Check out anything and everything in your area to see if you can find something that lines up with your goals, even if it doesn't have the "karate" name attached to it. Good luck.