sensei8

Behind closed door discussions Soke's reasoning was simply maturity, and for him, children weren't mature worthy to accept the great responsibility he believed was required for Shodan. He also had failed a countless amount of adults testing and/or petitions for candidacy because those adults, in his honest opinion, weren't mature enough mentally, physically, and/or technique wise. With Soke, maturity had to be there for all three parameters, and not just with technique. He had absolute no tolerance for any student that thought that they were privileged because they pay their tuition and/or they've been a student for a while. Dai-Soke was even more intolerant, but that's proof that the apple didn't fall far from the tree, in their care; student like teacher, I suppose. I enforce it because it's a By-Law and to change that particular By-Law, a majority vote would have to be cast, but first that vote would have to have a motion, and then seconded, to be placed on any voting scheduling for the 2Q calendar. For now, I don't see that during my life time. Can a SKKA dojo do whatever they want in this regard?? Sure, nothing preventing that; worser things can happen, no real big deal. That dojo would have to go rogue because the SKKA/Hombu would strip them of their charter.

This might be of some interest... https://kodokanboston.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/kingairyuarticle.pdf

Oyo is Oyo; another type of Bunkai, as is Omote, being too, another type of Bunkai; not one in the same. Omote is what's noticed at first impressive glance, whereas Oyo, is going way deep and then some for effective discoveries.

This is a common argument used to support the claim for the need to train full contact. It is also fundamentally flawed. Allow me to explain why. If the first time you ever get hit hard, it is in the controlled environment of training, then that can only mean that you've never been hit hard in a real confrontation. If you've never been hit hard in a real confrontation, then with respect, any notion of what it's like to be hit hard in a real confrontation and how one would react is pure theory. Someone who has never been hit hard in a real confrontation, by definition, does not have the experience needed to understand how they might react to being hit hard in a real confrontation. If training for self defence, training full contact is not ideal for another reason. You train to minimise the risk of someone knacking you by, having someone knack you. You train to mitigate the risk of a stronger opponent possibly punching you in the head and rattling your brain, a very remote possibility if you know how to avoid trouble, by actually going to a place on a regular basis and actually volunteering to have someone try their very best to punch your head and rattle your brain. Some folks want to train full contact. Each to their own. The information about risks is widely available so they can make an informed decision. But its illogical to do it for self defense. One Kick Wonder, you are discussing things in circles here. If I understand you correctly you are saying that he only way to truly prepare for an attack on the street is to go out and get attacked on the street. Not quite. What I'm saying is that training full contact is nothing like being attacked in the street. The only way anyone can ever know what it's like to be attacked in the street is if that's happened to them. That's not to say that folks should go out and look for trouble. That would be silly. Then you will understand the flaw in the full contact argument better than most. You say that the only way to prepare for being punched really hard is to have someone punch you really hard. But I bet you wouldn't say to your young recruits that the best way to prepare for a determined foe trying their very best to kill you with machine guns and grenades is to go somewhere and have someone fire machine guns and grenades at you with live ammo so you know what it feels like. Actually, One Kick, we do. In order to get soldiers prepared for combat (and I am not talking recruits or basic training, I am talking about once they get to their units), we put them through extremely realistic training. This training includes live fire exercises. No, there is no one shooting back at you, but there is a possibility of soldiers getting shot by other soldiers...and it happens, unfortunately, and sometimes soldiers die. This possibility does not stop us from continuing to do hard, realistic training. We don't shy away from this because of the possibility of someone getting hurt. That would be irresponsible. A leader is not doing his duty if he doesn't train his soldiers hard to get them ready for combat. US Army Ranger school is another example. Part of the mantra of the course is to make the students as stressful and as miserable as possible (via food deprivation, sleep deprivation, extreme stress, extreme terrain, and continuously hard missions) in order to have the students prove to themselves that they are capable of overcoming great stress and deprivation and still succeed. Does either one of these training methods perfectly simulate combat? No. That is impossible, but it is the best we can do. Now I know I am explaining military training, and martial arts schools are not the military. I understand that. I also understand that people train in martial arts for different reasons, which can be as diverse as: wanting to get into shape, join an organization, better discipline, competition, self-defense skills, etc. I personally don't have anything against any of these reasons, but the student must know that sometimes some of these focuses are exclusive of others. If I join a place that teaches cardio kickboxing in order to get into better shape, this is legit. However, I must be honest with myself with the truth that cardio kick boxing is not something that is going to get me prepared to defend myself on the street. Each style is different, and even dojos within the same style can be different. To each his own for what he or she wants to do. My dojo can offer a lot of things: discipline, fitness, joining a larger organization, learning about Okinawan culture, but, admittedly, there may be better dojos out there for these pursuits. My main purpose, and where I focus, is to prepare my students for life protection (self-defense) on the streets. When I teach students how to defend themselves, I am including the ability to take pain as part of this. I put them outside their comfort zone so that they know, when the stress is high, they can overcome. This is not my magical idea--this is proven to be the best way to train by the greatest military in the world (see above). That being said, this training is still controlled. I push things to the limit, but not over the limit. Does this training method perfectly simulate street self-defense? No. That is impossible, but it is the best we can do. You are right when you say a real life situation is a "lose-lose" proposition. No matter how fast or good you are, you are still likely to get hit or feel pain. Part of being able to defend yourself is to overcome this pain. Can you perfectly simulate this in the dojo...no. But you can give your students confidence that they can overcome, in a general sense, by putting them through hard training in the dojo. Look at some of the Okinawan masters. Morio Higaonna comes to mind. His style is Goju Ryu. This is not my style, but I will say they go through extreme body conditioning with Hojo Undo (Body Strengthening exercises) and Ude Tanren (Forearm Conditioning exercises). His hands are like bricks, plus he is in his 80s and still practicing (as many of the Okinawan masters are). Finally, if I see someone with cauliflower ear, or shins that look like they have been conditioned by kicking a rubber tree, or fists like Master Hagionna’s, well, those are people I don’t want to fight. Regardless of who (them or me) can land a cleaner punch, these guys can definitely take pain, and that is something that makes them hard men (and women) and tough in a fight! One Kick, you train for your own reasons and that is fine. If you don't want to train the way I am proposing, that is also fine. Karate no michi. Solid post, Fat Cobra!!

What I'm about to express, is for conversation, and not for judgement to be passed, please. I was an unwilling student who was trapped in a By-Law for 5 long years. History... In the very early days of the SKKA, which wasn't founded until Soke, with then Kaicho, Dai-Soke, moved to the USA in the late 1950's. Slowly but surely, their Student Body grew in a respective manner. Over some time, the Student Body was an equal mix of kids and adults. Promotion within the Kyu ranks slowly grew from Jukyu to Ikkyu, and the Hombu faced their first Shodan Testing Cycle. Kids were excited about that!! But their excitement was quickly dashed with one sentence from Soke... "You're not old enough!!" Soke never offered an explanation as to why, except..."Because I said so!!" Complaints reeled in from many parents, and as fast as those complaints came in, they were cast away by an unfeeling and dauntless Soke; he was firm in his commitment. Here at KF, this very subject has been covered from many different angles from both sides of the fence; pros and cons. Hopefully, this thread's a different angle...hopefully. From the era Soke was born in, 1917, passed away in 2008, and from where he came from, Nanjo, Okinawa, and arriving in the USA to establish the SKKA/Hombu in the late 1950's... Shortly after the very first Shodan Testing Cycle, where kids have earned an Ikkyu, had came and gone, Soke was vexed just enough to authorize the Junior Black Belt for those Ikkyu who earned the right to earn a JBB. However, same Testing Cycle for the JBB AND Shodan, but no one under 18 years of age is allowed to earn Shodan. BTW, that rule still is enforced to this day!! Was Soke wrong in not allowing kids to earn a Shodan Testing Cycle??

When you've darkened the door of the dojo/dojang/etc for one last time, what will your most regretful and happiest memories be??

No, not even in the slightest!!

Imagine me taking a puzzle box, then I teach you what to expect the picture to be, then I take the box lid off, and I then dump the puzzle pieces onto the floor, and there a quite a lot of pieces, much more than one expected as one look down upon the scattered and tattered mess at your feet. Now, put the puzzle together, as best as you can. Do you do all of the work, or do we build it together, over time?? No, we do it together, however, you have to do most of the homework so that you can understand all there is to understand concerning building a puzzle because no puzzle's the same. While putting some order in all of these pieces, you discover a many pieces are missing. From time to time, I add the missing pieces, and you reach your AHA moments as to where this missing piece should fit, remembering to not force it, but let it be natural, for every piece has a place and a place for it. As time has gone by, the picture begins to take form and shape. We're still working together to make all of the pieces fit, and not forced upon. We don't rush it, and we most certainly look it over, time and time again. Will we both see the same exacting picture, as I described it at the onslaught of the journey?? Maybe, but I doubt it because we're different across the board, and how we reach the end differs, however, we reached the end together with the same results...a puzzle in its own making, which shall never be complete. This hopefully illustrates that ever Kata is an entire system...the beginning of ones puzzle building journey, but most assuredly, not the end.

Solid post!! At the SKKA, we don't the physical but at the effectiveness of said technique, no matter the technique.

When the CI and/or the Governing Body succumbs to the pressure from the Student Body, then anarchy sets in, therefore, what they once stood for, no longer exists...I don't want any part of that. As the Kaicho of the SKKA, I will not allow the Student Body to run the SKKA; that's MY responsibility, and I have to protect the ENTIRE Student Body, not just one or the few. If those think that I'll bow to their will, they really don't know me, but they will shortly thereafter. Don't sweep it under the rug, fight for what you believe because your MA journey is yours alone, but choose the right fight, and fight the good fight!!

Not the way that we do it!! The initial is known, but after that, it's not, hence, the battle isn't known by either student, nor is the outcome. And yes, that's the MA...performing a specific action is expected...TECHNIQUES, whatever that might be at that particular moment. Please don't group all of us traditional MAist together on the same cloth and/or with the same broad brush stroke!! I was raised, and am still, a traditional MAist, but the manner of which we/I was/were trained by Soke and Dai-Soke, is very much realistic and practical. Why?? Our lives depend on it each and every time!! The MA is an ongoing testing ground, in which I'm still an active participant of because NOTHING is written in stone...NOTHING!! Therefore, it's up to the student to take what they've been and/or being taught, and greatly expand upon it because, once again, their live depends on it. What the student is taught is how to give that door of opportunity that swift kick to get that door opened, but that student must be willing to have the guts to first go through the open door, and then to bust that door wide open with their own testing grounds. Students are given the tools, but how the student uses them is up to that student, traditional or not!! I'm a Senior Dan, but what I've given to my students is the free will to expand what it is that they've learned from me. But they have to have the guts to accept it or discard it for their MA betterment. I've given them all of the puzzle pieces but it's up to them to put them all together so that their picture becomes much more clearer to them, not for me, but for them!!

Fair or not fair, the Testing Cycle is what it is. If it's believed to be an unfair test, than what's one to do?!? I suppose that one could address the unfairness with ones CI and/or ones Governing Body, but exactly what does one hope for from a formal complaint?!? The CI and/or the Governing Body aren't going to budge one iota when the Testing Cycle is the issue because for what I've experienced, is that that type of complaint isn't treated kindly because it questions their authority as well as their knowledge. After all, we came to them, not vice versa. If we don't like anything, then we can just go somewhere else. Of course, we at the SKKA never have to worry about this and/or that because both females and males are required to do the exact same things.

As an Okinawa MA style, we're more upright in our Oi-Zuki than our Karate counterparts. Nonetheless, our force is earned from the body moving forward as we close the distance, in which, things are only awkward when ones a beginner.

Yes!! Why?? It's part of the methodology, and the starting point of the syllabus/curriculum. Any system has to have a starting point to be considered as well as for it to grow. However, the effectiveness must be harshly tested thoroughly and without any ambiguity whatsoever. Imho. How? I can practice blocking a mid section front kick and countering with a punch as many times as I like. Then tell myself I've proven that application to be effective. Then it all falls apart the first time a real attacker kicks from a different angle or throws a punch first or is stronger and faster than me. If we take kata literally, we can't possibly test their effectiveness. Kata is orderly, violence is not. How?? Resistive training!!!!! Just short of killing/injuring/maiming ones dojo mate. Yes, Kata is orderly, and that's good; wouldn't want it any other way. If one doesn't take Kata literal, then there's no real reason to take Bunkai literal, nor is there any real reason to take the MA literal, and in that end, there's no real reason to shadow the doors of any MA school!! Do you drill off what's in Kata?? Those drills are literal assumptions, at best. Oyo is the exclamation point of Bunkai, just as Kata is the exclamation point of Kihon and/or Kumite, and vice versa. What one drills in the dojo should be no different against an attacker.

You seem to be in a Catch-22; darn if you do, and darn if you don't. Equality should be considered, however, the field should also be of equality as well. The fact that females are not as strong as males shouldn't be weighed whatsoever because the MA isn't based on gender, but on knowledge and experience, i.e., either the practitioner is or isn't effective. Our Testing Cycle isn't gender based, but rank based, and yes, I hate that terminology, as if rank has meaning, which it doesn't. The bottom line is that the CI and/or the Governing Body has ruled as to the policies and procedures, in which, the SOP must be adhered to, or one can go somewhere else, which is another Catch-22.

Yes!! Why?? It's part of the methodology, and the starting point of the syllabus/curriculum. Any system has to have a starting point to be considered as well as for it to grow. However, the effectiveness must be harshly tested thoroughly and without any ambiguity whatsoever. Imho.

In any splitting up of any MA school, I believe that the students suffer the most for a wide variety of reasons. It's never a peaceful transition across the board. The dust will eventually settle, and what remains will either add to or take away or do nothing for the Student Body, as well as the school itself. Hurt feelings are often hard and slow to mend.

It was just a joke. It was analogy of looking around and trying to spot the weird guy and not seeing one, only to realize YOU’RE the weird one. It’s happened to me a few times, where I’m sitting there in a group and wondering “what’s the matter with these guys” when it dawns on my that they’re all probably saying “what’s the matter with HIM (me)?” I tend to look at things from an odd angle and get a chuckle out of it. I knew it was a joke, and I didn't take it personal at all. I've just never personally encountered face to face; just on line or read about it or someone told me about one.

For myself, I'd not be overly concerned with if any MA style is real, but is said MA style effective, and is that effectiveness doable for said practitioner. As far as the 15th Dan...that's his right as the founder, no matter what my professional and personal feelings might be.

What I teach my students, and what the SKKA require to teach, are two different things. The SKKA has a set of 3 required Bunkai for each and every movement found in said Kata, and they are staunch proponents of Oyo. This is fine because any "tool" has to have a starting methodology to it. What I strongly teach my students is to NOT look at what the SKKA core has provided as the end of any means, as students tend to do; the gospel truth from the Governing Body. Albeit, to look at each and every Bunkai way beyond what the SKKA has given us as a starting point, because that's what the SKKA is giving them, a starting point of reference. The literal or the developed or the practical of Bunkai are not to be the bondage of its possibility. For every challenge is opportunity, and with every opportunity comes learning. This, to me, is the summation of 'why' is to the summation of 'because' of any approach to Bunkai. We don't believe, therefore we don't teach the literal because to us, the word "block" isn't what we do, which is we receive. To us literal proponents haven't matured away from the illusion that literal Bunkai offers. To each their own!! I respect that!!

As I've said, I'm happy with that principle. It's just that in my club, we've been assured otherwise. I think everyone else in the club is under the illusion that when it closes, they'll be able to simply join another club, keeping their rank and practicing the exact same karate as they practice now. I imagine there's going to be quite a few unhappy people when they realize. One will only know the possible outcome once its been decided by the CI; nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Just this past Thursday night, 15 minutes before the store closing, a student of mine was robbed at gun point at work. He's a Store Manager of a well known retail brand. This is he's 3rd time in being robbed in his 19 years in retail. The robbers didn't get much, and no one was seriously injured. 2 guys brandishing a shotgun and a very large pistol came into his store, they were wearing hooded sweatshirts, sunglasses, and baseball type caps. At that time, there were 5 customers, 2 clerks, and him, and they were forced to lay face down, except him because he's the Store Manager and only a member of management can open the register without a sale. The robbers were violent in both language and physical. At the end, and this covered only about 5 minutes, if that, but the robber with the shotgun watched over all but him, while the other robber with the big gun escorted him behind the cash wrap to retrieve all of the cash out of the 3 registers...$150.00 in total. But, right before the robber that was with my student, instead of ordering him to lay down, the robber hit him right in the head. The trauma was severe enough that 1 of the clerks quit, and my student is contemplating to quit as well. He had many opportunities to disarm the robber who hit him, but with others in the store, and with there being 2 robbers, and because it's against company policy to take matters in your own hands, he did nothing. He's taking a few weeks away from the dojo to clear his mind, and seek some professional help, but he feels he's failed as a MAist...and he's not, but there's no telling him that, at this moment. My student's a Yondan!!

That my dojo was a business; first and foremost. It's always been a business, but at first, I didn't treat it as such for one reason or another. Through trials and tribulations I learned the truth... Take the school for granted will only get you taken to bankruptcy court!!

To Chunmonchek and JR... Huh??

Is that really self-motivation, or is it a realistic lack of time? If you’re sitting on the couch and making up excuses or just plain-old don’t feel like going, then yeah, lack of motivation. But if you’re at work, kids’ wrestling tourney, etc., I wouldn’t call that a lack of motivation. I’d call that higher priorities. I wholeheartedly concur!!